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Goodbye Jesus

Murderous Voices In My Head


Guest sylensikeelyoo

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Guest sylensikeelyoo

 Then God said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.” (Genesis 22:2)

 

As a Christian, I was told that this is a story of great faith! Abraham was praised for his faith and willingness to sacrifice the most precious possession to God, his "only" son whom he loved. Actually, Abraham had two sons at this point, if you actually read the Bible. Isaac was his only son with Sarah, his wife. But he had another son with Sarah's servant...His older, bastard child, Ishmael. If God is so good and Abraham was so righteous, why was he so quick to just disown his first born child, Ishmael? I know what the bible says about the whole thing. Isaac was supposedly the son of promise from God, and Ishmael was just a product of Abraham being impatient and not trusting God or whatever. So lets just toss him aside like garbage. But this is not the point. Let me get back to it.

 

Lets say you read this article about a father who is on death row for the murder of his son. His defense to the jury was that God spoke to him and told him to sacrifice his son to Him. So the man obeyed God, tied his son down, slit his throat, and burned him on this makeshift altar to God. Do you think the jury had the right to send the guy to death row? what the guy did was straight out of a story in the bible...well, sort of. No angels intervened here. But there is ANOTHER story that is eerily similar and GUT WRENCHING. Read the story of Jepthah in Judges 11. Horrifying stuff there. Now, CHRISTIANS, I don't wanna hear your bullshit about how the bible just documents things that happened and that it doesn't condone that horrible act. Because Hebrews 11 is a chapter in which the author is praising all of the men in the past for their great Faith. of course Abraham is mentioned twice. But look at verse 32. Fucking Jepthah. Man of faith to be commended. NOW, back to the story. This father on death row, convicted of murder by the Jury...do you think they were wrong? Do you think that the father should actually be commended for his great faith? His actions are fully justified by the bible in both the Old and New Testament.

 

...Or do you think that maybe the guy should have a psych evaluation instead? After all, acting out on murderous voices in one's head is symptoms of a dangerous mental illness. What makes the father in my story any different that Abraham in the Bible? "oh, but God needed to test him to make sure that he was worthy of God's blessing!" Actually, turn your bible back a page or two and you can see that God already found him worthy and already blessed him. Perhaps if an infinitely GOOD God wanted to test one of his servant's faith, a test of benevolence would have made more sense. For instance, if God would have spoken to Abraham and said, "ABRAHAM! TAKE THEE ALL OF THY VAST WEALTH AND GIVE IT ALL TO THINE ENEMIES AND TO THE POOR ALL THROUGHOUT THE LAND, THAT WAY I KNOW THAT THOU ART SELFLESS, GOOD, NOBLE, AND WORTHY OF MY BLESSINGS"....Then God really would have been able to see that Abraham had great faith, and he was a GOOD person. Instead, God orders him to murder his child. If you really think about it, what does obeying murderous voices in your head prove.....REALLY?

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Even as a christian, I always felt bad for Ishmael in that story.

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  • 2 weeks later...

God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"

Abe said man, "You must be puttin' me on"

God said "No" Abe said "What?"

God say "You can do what you want Abe

but the next time to see me comin', you better run"

Abe said, "Where you want this killing done?"

God say, "Out on Highway 61"

 

~ Bob Dylan

 

 

 

-Abraham withheld nothing from God. He was ready to sacrifice his own son.

 

-God stopped him.

 

-Because of his faith God promised to bless him and his descendants.

 

- And through them all the world will receive blessings.

 

 

God also protected and blessed Hagar and Ishmael. (Genesis 21:18)

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Why are there so many Christians who feel that God is telling them to kill their children, and God doesn't stop them?

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Ironhorse, you really should be embarrassed to exist.

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     The story doesn't hold up under scrutiny unless we assume it really is about god wanting Abraham to simply kill his son and nothing more.  If the story is about faith in god then it falls apart quickly.

 

     If we assume the straightforward version which is god wants Abraham to kill Isaac.  Then Abraham blindly obeys, packs up and keeps his intentions hidden until god (the angel) steps in and lets him off the hook.  God shows his mercy.  Job well done.

 

     If we assume that god is testing his faith then deep down Abraham knows that his god wouldn't allow him to kill Isaac.  He doesn't know what the actual case may ultimately be but he knows that god is lying when he told him he wanted him to kill his son.  This ruins the very faith aspect the story is trying to show.  You can't doubt the direct order god gives you if you are working with faith.  The point in the story where Isaac asks Abraham where the lamb is and Abraham tells him that god will provide a lamb is used to indicate that Abraham didn't think that god would allow him to kill his son but that undermines the authority of god.  God said to do it.  If he was just going through the motions until the point where he thought god would intervene then he really wasn't following orders.  He was pretending.  Just going along until he got uncomfortable (just until he would have killed Isaac we're to imagine)?  That's faith?  Okay.  Luckily for Abraham in this game of chicken god blinked first.

 

     There's always the other answer I've heard that is this is an edit and the story really had Abram killing one of his kids but it got changed.  That seems just as good.

 

          mwc

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God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"

Abe said man, "You must be puttin' me on"

God said "No" Abe said "What?"

God say "You can do what you want Abe

but the next time to see me comin', you better run"

Abe said, "Where you want this killing done?"

God say, "Out on Highway 61"

 

~ Bob Dylan

 

-Abraham withheld nothing from God. He was ready to sacrifice his own son.

-God stopped him.

-Because of his faith God promised to bless him and his descendants.

- And through them all the world will receive blessings.

God also protected and blessed Hagar and Ishmael. (Genesis 21:18)

 

Anyone notice Ironhorse's flip-flopping between his literal and historical reading of Genesis above...

 

...and his metaphorical and non-historical reading of Genesis in the linked thread?

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/67937-christianity-is-perverted/page-3#.VX7vNPlVhHw (post #43)

 

In responding to his claim, 'God created sex' Ironhorse doesn't treat Genesis 1 & 2 literally, as history.

 

Instead, he cites this Wiki page... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_sexual_reproduction

 

By using evolution to explain sex, he therefore treats Genesis 1 & 2 as metaphor, not history.

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So, according to Ironhorse, when it comes to Abraham, Genesis is literally and historically true, but when it comes to Adam and Eve, Genesis is a metaphor and not history.

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.

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Well, that's ok then, isn't it?  We can all relax!

 

A & E's original sin is just a metaphor and not a real and historical event.

 

Which means that Jesus' death wasn't a real sacrifice, just a metaphorical one.

 

And when Jesus talks about hell, he means it all metaphorically, not literally. 

 

So salvation and heaven and eternal bliss are just metaphors too.

.

.

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Thanks for clearing that up, Ironhorse!  goodjob.gif

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God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"

Abe said man, "You must be puttin' me on"

God said "No" Abe said "What?"

God say "You can do what you want Abe

but the next time to see me comin', you better run"

Abe said, "Where you want this killing done?"

God say, "Out on Highway 61"

 

~ Bob Dylan

 

 

 

-Abraham withheld nothing from God. He was ready to sacrifice his own son.

 

Loyalty should be tempered with reason.

 

-God stopped him.

 

-Because of his faith God promised to bless him and his descendants.

 

 

- And through them all the world will receive blessings.

 

God does an evil deed and Christians praise his name.

If a person did this it would be a heinous act.

 

Really, when you start thinking about it , it becomes hard to decide if God is good or bad.

 

 

God also protected and blessed Hagar and Ishmael. (Genesis 21:18)

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     The story doesn't hold up under scrutiny unless we assume it really is about god wanting Abraham to simply kill his son and nothing more.  If the story is about faith in god then it falls apart quickly.

 

     If we assume the straightforward version which is god wants Abraham to kill Isaac.  Then Abraham blindly obeys, packs up and keeps his intentions hidden until god (the angel) steps in and lets him off the hook.  God shows his mercy.  Job well done.

 

     If we assume that god is testing his faith then deep down Abraham knows that his god wouldn't allow him to kill Isaac.  He doesn't know what the actual case may ultimately be but he knows that god is lying when he told him he wanted him to kill his son.  This ruins the very faith aspect the story is trying to show.  You can't doubt the direct order god gives you if you are working with faith.  The point in the story where Isaac asks Abraham where the lamb is and Abraham tells him that god will provide a lamb is used to indicate that Abraham didn't think that god would allow him to kill his son but that undermines the authority of god.  God said to do it.  If he was just going through the motions until the point where he thought god would intervene then he really wasn't following orders.  He was pretending.  Just going along until he got uncomfortable (just until he would have killed Isaac we're to imagine)?  That's faith?  Okay.  Luckily for Abraham in this game of chicken god blinked first.

 

     There's always the other answer I've heard that is this is an edit and the story really had Abram killing one of his kids but it got changed.  That seems just as good.

 

          mwc

 

Or maybe Abraham was just crazy and made up the story.

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So, according to Ironhorse, when it comes to Abraham, Genesis is literally and historically true, but when it comes to Adam and Eve, Genesis is a metaphor and not history.

 

Whatever it takes to maintain the belief system must be done. smile.png

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Anyone notice Ironhorse's flip-flopping between his literal and historical reading of Genesis above...

 

...and his metaphorical and non-historical reading of Genesis in the linked thread?

 

 

 

The Bible means whatever Tin Pony needs the Bible to mean right now.

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Anyone notice Ironhorse's flip-flopping between his literal and historical reading of Genesis above...

 

...and his metaphorical and non-historical reading of Genesis in the linked thread?

 

 

 

The Bible means whatever Tin Pony needs the Bible to mean right now.

 

 

 

So the same passage he quoted last Friday means something different today, if it suits him?

 

Isn't that lying, MM?

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Guest sylensikeelyoo

Well, whatever helps him reconcile the facts with his theology. The two just don't coincide in reality, only in the mind of a brainwashed Christian. He's not an idiot, he's just trapped. Hopefully o e day he'll finally listen to us and start examining his holy text objectively and start thinking for himself. Until then, we gotta read his mind-numbing religious rhetoric. *sigh*

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Abraham was a dick. Just think about him lying about his wife being his sister so he would not be killed...

 

What I always found troubling about the story of sacrificing his son was also this: How did Isaac deal with this? I mean, your own father comes and asks you to do some trip and have alone time together. You might be excited and curious because your father is very mysterious about it. Therefore you also might be quite confused. Then, you go get all the stuff you need for a sacrifice. You still have no clue. And then your father grabs you, binds you, puts you on that altar and takes the knife to kill you. And only because an angel holds him back he is not doing it. How the hell do you deal with such an incident? Even if this story was true...that is where it loses me. I really don't believe this father son relationship was anything like normal anymore...if it has ever been normal before...because how can you have a notmal relationship to anyone if you need to lie about your wife because you are afraid that you will get killed for her.

 

But well, the bible is filled with distorted family relationships and Christians either pretend they are not there or they find whatever kind of far fetched justification.

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Guest sylensikeelyoo

Abraham was a dick. Just think about him lying about his wife being his sister so he would not be killed...

 

What I always found troubling about the story of sacrificing his son was also this: How did Isaac deal with this? I mean, your own father comes and asks you to do some trip and have alone time together. You might be excited and curious because your father is very mysterious about it. Therefore you also might be quite confused. Then, you go get all the stuff you need for a sacrifice. You still have no clue. And then your father grabs you, binds you, puts you on that altar and takes the knife to kill you. And only because an angel holds him back he is not doing it. How the hell do you deal with such an incident? Even if this story was true...that is where it loses me. I really don't believe this father son relationship was anything like normal anymore...if it has ever been normal before...because how can you have a notmal relationship to anyone if you need to lie about your wife because you are afraid that you will get killed for her.

 

But well, the bible is filled with distorted family relationships and Christians either pretend they are not there or they find whatever kind of far fetched justification.

Great point! Christians like James Dobson are so confident that homosexuals would be "bad" parents, but Abraham was straight, and what kind of parent was he? Like you said, putting myself in Issac's shoes, I can't say that I'd really have a "good" father son relationship either. Look at how Issac turned out as a father too: he had twins and favored one over the other and had only one blessing to give, and he gave his least favorite son a blessing because he tricked him into it. And once he figured out what happened, Issac refused to go ahead and bless his favorite son in spite of accidentally blessing his least favorite son. So as you can see, the parent-child relationship with Issac went on to be pretty fucked up as well. I know I would feel pretty rejected and dysfunctional if my dad decided to kill me because "God" told him to. Even if an angel stopped him before he did it, just the fact that he totally would have done it with no hesitation would fuck with my head. All I know is, I don't hear of many homosexual parents killing their kids because voices in their heads tell them so. We hear of LOTS of straight parents doing it. And like someone else said earlier, God never stops them.
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So the same passage he quoted last Friday means something different today, if it suits him?

 

Isn't that lying, MM?

 

 

 

Christians are not perfect, only forgiven.  That means they can lie as much as they want.  But not you or

 

me.  We get to burn in Hell for all eternity for not trusting the one true religion that looks so much like the 

 

thousands of false religions.  And if Christians lying about their religion makes it that much harder to tell

 

that Christianity isn't false well that is too bad for us.

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Just for fun, lets imagine that the god character didn't know ahead of time whether Abraham would pass or fail his test of faith, and that for some reason, god thought that telling Abe to sacrifice his son would be a good way to test it.

 

This is where you get a problem, god didn't need to test Abraham's faith.  Abraham's faith had already failed twice.  Two times earlier in his life, he had lied to powerful men, telling them that his wife Sarah was his sister, so that they wouldn't kill him and take her for themselves.  The results of dishonest Abe's lies were that god had to punish these men for their intentions with Abe's wife.

 

If you look at the chronology of the Abram/Abraham story, you will realize that these two events happened after god had promised to make him into a great nation and to give the land of Canann to his decendants, but Abram had no children at the time of his lies about his wife.  You can't have kids when you are dead, so by lying he was saying that he didn't have faith that the omnipotent creator of the entire universe would be able to keep his promise.

 

Abraham failed his test of faith when his own life was at stake, but it appears that he found it much easier to be faithful when it was someone else's life on the line. 

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Um...I think Sarah really was Abraham's sister, according to Genesis 20:12...

 

"And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife."

from here:  http://biblehub.com/genesis/20-12.htm

 

He wasn't lying. He married his half-sister. Not the daughter of his vessel mother either, but the daughter of the one that counts...his father.  

 

Some of you sinners will do anything to tear down the Biblical view of marriage as one man, one half-sister, won't you?  

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Um...I think Sarah really was Abraham's sister, according to Genesis 20:12...

 

"And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife."

from here:  http://biblehub.com/genesis/20-12.htm

 

He wasn't lying. He married his half-sister. Not the daughter of his vessel mother either, but the daughter of the one that counts...his father.  

 

Some of you sinners will do anything to tear down the Biblical view of marriage as one man, one half-sister, won't you?  

     Are you saying it was a half-truth?

 

     Ehhh.  Nudge.  Nudge.  Elbow.  Elbow.

 

     Thanks.  I'll be here all week.

 

          mwc

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God said to Abraham, "Kill me a son"

Abe said man, "You must be puttin' me on"

God said "No" Abe said "What?"

God say "You can do what you want Abe

but the next time to see me comin', you better run"

Abe said, "Where you want this killing done?"

God say, "Out on Highway 61"

 

~ Bob Dylan

 

 

 

 

 

Out on highway 61, Ironhorse, really?  Not on that mountain where the Dome of the Rock now stands or something? 

 

Which is it? Well, I bet it isn't on highway 61, so Dylan is a false prophet, right?

 

You may not understand it all Ironhorse, until Bono dies and becomes the fourth member of the Trinity. Hang in there brother, and keep the faith.

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That Abraham story is one sick fable.

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until Bono dies and becomes the fourth member of the Trinity.

Okay. So now you're just bein' silly.
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Um...I think Sarah really was Abraham's sister, according to Genesis 20:12...

 

"And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife."

from here:  http://biblehub.com/genesis/20-12.htm

 

He wasn't lying. He married his half-sister. Not the daughter of his vessel mother either, but the daughter of the one that counts...his father.  

 

Some of you sinners will do anything to tear down the Biblical view of marriage as one man, one half-sister, won't you?

 

He was lying even if Sara was his half sister. He didn't tell them She was his wife and said she was his sister instead even when they took Sara away from him...so where was his trust in God now? He was just a dick really...

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

Abraham was a dick. Just think about him lying about his wife being his sister so he would not be killed...

He was lying even if Sara was his half sister. He didn't tell them She was his wife and said she was his sister instead even when they took Sara away from him...so where was his trust in God now? He was just a dick really...
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FYI, his name was Abram, not Abraham at the time that they had departed Canaan due to a famine in the land. And just before they reached Egypt is when Abram asked his brother’s wife, whose name at the time was Sarai, not Sara, to say to the Egyptians that she was his sister instead of telling them that she was his wife when they entered Egypt.

 

Sarai was the wife of Haran, the son of Terah who was the father of Abram and Nahor. Since Haran died before his father, his wife became the duty to his father as a daughter.

Likewise, when Abram, Haran’s brother, took unto him the wife of his dead brother, it is for the purpose of performing the duty of a husband's brother unto her.

 

And thus, Abram took unto him the wife of his dead brother who was the daughter of his father, but not the daughter of his mother. So Sarai was not biologically related to either Abram or his parents.

 

Of course, you probably know that if Abram had let Sarai say to the Princes of Egypt that she was his wife, then they would not have taken her to Pharaoh to possibly become one of his concubines, but rather would have taken her for their own lustful purposes since she would have not been considered worthy being the wife of a man.

 

What did you think they were going to do with her when as you said “even when they took Sara away from him..”

 

Two times earlier in his life, he had lied to powerful men, telling them that his wife Sarah was his sister, ….

Since you seem to be representing that you believe that Abram actually lied, then are you representing that you actually believe God told Pharaoh that Sarai was Abraham’s wife and told the King of Gerar that Sarah was Abraham’s wife? If God didn’t tell them then how did they know?

 

Um...I think Sarah really was Abraham's sister, according to Genesis 20:12...

"And yet indeed she is my sister; she the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife."

He wasn't lying. He married his half-sister. Not the daughter of his vessel mother either, but the daughter of the one that counts...his father. 

 

Some of you sinners will do anything to tear down the Biblical view of marriage as one man, one half-sister, won't you?

And you point is? LOL

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