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Fweethawt

Abortion Debate With Pro-Lifer -- Peanut Gallery

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Fweethawt    1,622

This thread is reserved for anyone outside of the 'Abortion Debate with Pro-lifer' thread that wishes to discuss or question any of the points mentioned within said debate.

 

Keep it clean here, too. Thank you.

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EyesOpened    251

Both involved in the debate are making incredible points and it Is very educational. Thank you Sy, MM and Fweethawt.

 

How much research have both of you done on this topic. It seems like a lot on both sides.

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Becks    55

So this debate is about abortion being moral or immoral in the United States?

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florduh    4,443

This could be most excellent! I've never seen the abortion issue discussed logically and factually. I suppose it happens, but all I ever see is emotional entrenchment on both sides. Well done!

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EyesOpened    251

"Abortion is an unpleasant last resort but there is no need to demonize it. A fetus is not an individual because it’s inside (and build by) its mother’s body. The fetus is in a state of ignorance so abortion is humane. Education and contraceptives alone will never eliminate unwanted pregnancy. Adoption cannot cover all the births that would result from restricting abortion. The medical, social and economic conditions that drive abortion are not going to change so abortions will continue to happen even if we make it illegal. These problems cannot be wished away or solved by having a more positive paradigm."

 

That paragraph brought up interesting questions to me. This part specifically: "A fetus is not an individual because it’s inside (and build by) its mother’s body. The fetus is in a state of ignorance so abortion is humane."

 

It is to my understanding that most human brains do not retain memories right away. Somewhere around 2-4 years old children start remembering. I haven't done any research on this yet, i am just going off of my personal experience. The questions would be: when does the ignorance not become a factor anymore? Does it really matter if the fetus is inside or outside the mothers body when IGNORANCE is being used as the deciding factor? Taking into account the arguments of overpopulation and this said child's possible miserable life?

 

(These questions are for anyone to answer)

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WarriorPoet    423

Pregnancy is the only time that one human is expected by a large percentage of the population to use her own body to support another.  Those that given a chance would limit or eliminate abortion rights are advocating special rights for a fetus that we would never grant to any other human.

 

My wife and I are expecting our first child.  Let me delve into the realm of hypotheticals, when our (arbitrariliy chosen gender) daughter is 16, she unfortunately suffers a serious medical condition.  The only way to save her life is for me to donate a lobe of my liver to her, my wife is not a match.  Under our current understanding of medical ethics and our laws regarding these situations, I would never be required to undergo this procedure.  For me, it is fairly safe and after enough time has passed, my liver will grow back.  But the fact still stands, I am well within my rights to refuse.  You may rightly think that I am an asshole for refusing, but I doubt that you would deny my right.

 

In the long run, the donation of a lobe of my liver is a much smaller sacrifice than carrying an unwanted baby to term.  By having a baby you are signing up for a nearly two decade obligation, my liver would be whole again in a matter of months.  This is also a situation where I had sex knowing that a child could be produced, but while many would insist that a woman carry the pregnancy to term, very few people would insist that I undergo a medical procedure that carries no more risk than giving birth and far less of a long term obligation.

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Guest sylensikeelyoo   
Guest sylensikeelyoo

Yeah I was tryna stay out of the peanut gallery till I was done with the debate. My closing arguments are done, now we're just waiting on Mymistake to finish up. But yeah the two of us have done tons of homework on this. We both threw some heavy punches, but we kept it classy. Im proud of us!! I had a great time. It was my first time arguing my side from a non religious perspective. I feel like I was able to get a really good understanding of where the opposition was coming from, even though we still disagree. It was intellectually stimulating and I learned a lot about the opposing views. When I was a Christian, I didn't care about the opposing view. All I knew was people who supported abortion were murderers and were going to hell. I don't feel that way at all anymore. Not just because hell isn't real, but because I understand the complexities of the controversy. Pro choicers are NOT murderers. Both sides are right in their own respects. I may still be adamantly opposed to abortion, but that doesn't mean that I feel any animosity toward people who disagree with me. I used to, but not anymore. I'm happy with how much I've changed over the years. And I'm really happy we got to do this debate.

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Guest sylensikeelyoo   
Guest sylensikeelyoo

Yeah that was a good debate. MM came in swinging like a mofo during round two of arguments and that closing statement was on fire yo.

 

But may I just say:

 

Nananana booboo! :P

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mymistake    8,511

It is to my understanding that most human brains do not retain memories right away. Somewhere around 2-4 years old children start remembering. I haven't done any research on this yet, i am just going off of my personal experience. The questions would be: when does the ignorance not become a factor anymore? Does it really matter if the fetus is inside or outside the mothers body when IGNORANCE is being used as the deciding factor? Taking into account the arguments of overpopulation and this said child's possible miserable life?

 

(These questions are for anyone to answer)

 

 

I'm glad you brought this up.  I apologize if my original statement was vague in any way.  I was worried about conveying the wrong idea due to the debate limitations.

 

I tried to clarify in later installments after I saw this question.  I'm not sure if I did your question justice.

 

 

 

I would never support harming somebody after they were born.  When I mentioned ignorance for the fetus this is complete ignorance.  The fetus only know swimming

 

and noise that is divorced of all meaning.  You get nine months of heartbeat.  There is an occasional muffled voice but it doesn't mean anything.  You have no

 

reference point; no other experience for comparison.  It's just a meaningless beating sound for all of known existence.  Being born is a shocking experience.  There is

 

a totally new environment.  Everything is suddenly different.  Once the umbilical cord is cut you have a terrible thirst.  Your whole existence is crying out in need.  It is

 

the very first "worst day of your life".  Then you get to discover soiled diapers and how much that sucks.  Babies have good experiences too.  They smile, laugh and 

 

giggle.  It's just that fetus and baby are completely different experiences.  

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SilentLoner    2,143

 

 

I actually laughed when you used a Dr Seuss quote, since Dr Suess himself was very much pro choice - he attended Planned Parenthood luncheons and threatened to sue an anti-abortion group that hijacked a quote from Horton Hears a Who. His widow is still an active Planned Parenthood donor.

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Guest sylensikeelyoo   
Guest sylensikeelyoo

 

 

 

I actually laughed when you used a Dr Seuss quote, since Dr Suess himself was very much pro choice - he attended Planned Parenthood luncheons and threatened to sue an anti-abortion group that hijacked a quote from Horton Hears a Who. His widow is still an active Planned Parenthood donor.

Yeah I know. The "a person is a person no matter how small" line from Horton. Thomas Jefferson also thought slavery was okay, yet I quoted one of his most famous lines as well. This line was quoted by abolitionists and civil rights activists for hundreds of years. As you can see, its not about the political ideology of the person who said it. It's the wisdom in what they said, even if they didn't realized it when they said it.

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SilentLoner    2,143

 

 

 

 

I actually laughed when you used a Dr Seuss quote, since Dr Suess himself was very much pro choice - he attended Planned Parenthood luncheons and threatened to sue an anti-abortion group that hijacked a quote from Horton Hears a Who. His widow is still an active Planned Parenthood donor.

Yeah I know. The "a person is a person no matter how small" line from Horton. Thomas Jefferson also thought slavery was okay, yet I quoted one of his most famous lines as well. This line was quoted by abolitionists and civil rights activists for hundreds of years. As you can see, its not about the political ideology of the person who said it. It's the wisdom in what they said, even if they didn't realized it when they said it.

 

 

Not realizing what they said is one thing, actively hating what fanatics hijack their work for is another, which is what Seuss did.  

 

Also, its another amusing point to try and compare slavery to abortion. Since restricting abortion rights does involve stripping away bodily autonomy rights. But historically, abortion methods were widely used by female slaves to try and control at least some part of their lives - archaeological studies of slave cabins have revealed high amounts of cotton root bark, a known effective abortifacent. Some slave owners considered raping profitable, as it increased the number of slaves they owned. Some owners who found out about cotton root bark's abortive properties would force their slaves to drink black haw (a strong miscarriage preventative) to ensure they carried to term. Something I'm sure many modern day abortion opponents would love to do.

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mymistake    8,511

 

 

 

 

I actually laughed when you used a Dr Seuss quote, since Dr Suess himself was very much pro choice - he attended Planned Parenthood luncheons and threatened to sue an anti-abortion group that hijacked a quote from Horton Hears a Who. His widow is still an active Planned Parenthood donor.

Yeah I know. The "a person is a person no matter how small" line from Horton. Thomas Jefferson also thought slavery was okay, yet I quoted one of his most famous lines as well. This line was quoted by abolitionists and civil rights activists for hundreds of years. As you can see, its not about the political ideology of the person who said it. It's the wisdom in what they said, even if they didn't realized it when they said it.

 

 

 

Unfortunately Jefferson's comments were so prejudiced that he didn't feel the need to explain that "people" really means "white men".

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Guest sylensikeelyoo   
Guest sylensikeelyoo

 

 

 

 

I actually laughed when you used a Dr Seuss quote, since Dr Suess himself was very much pro choice - he attended Planned Parenthood luncheons and threatened to sue an anti-abortion group that hijacked a quote from Horton Hears a Who. His widow is still an active Planned Parenthood donor.

Yeah I know. The "a person is a person no matter how small" line from Horton. Thomas Jefferson also thought slavery was okay, yet I quoted one of his most famous lines as well. This line was quoted by abolitionists and civil rights activists for hundreds of years. As you can see, its not about the political ideology of the person who said it. It's the wisdom in what they said, even if they didn't realized it when they said it.

 

Unfortunately Jefferson's comments were so prejudiced that he didn't feel the need to explain that "people" really means "white men".

Irrelevant, MM. I'm just saying that just because someone has a certain political ideology I disagree with, doesn't mean that I can't take their quotes out of context and use it to make an opposing political statement. Quote mining is a residual habit from my fundy days. Don't judge me.

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Fweethawt    1,622

Things are getting a little warm here in the Arena. We're gonna wrap things up. If anyone absolutely has to continue with anything that wasn't properly addressed that pertained to the Abortion debate, please take care of it via pm's or open a thread elsewhere.

 

Thanks everybody!

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