Ellinas Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 This morning. As you all know (or at least, will know if you've stumbled across some older posts) I still accompany Mrs Ellinas to church on a Sunday morning. Over the last week or so the Welsh government has altered the rules on organ donation. Previously, you had to be a card carrying donor. Now, you are a potential donor unless you opt-out. Now, it is true I never had a donor card - though that was more down to not really thinking about it than anything else. In truth, as long as I've finished with them, they can have my organs if it will help someone else. Not according to one old believer. We were subjected to a 15 minute diatribe on how the body is also redeemed, how donation in "unseemly" and this scheme just plain wrong. Apparently it is quite "seemly" to allow organs to rot under 6 feet of earth, but not to use them to save a life and alleviate suffering. That annoyed me quite enough. But something else as well - 2 people walked out, a mother and daughter. The latter seemed quite upset. Though nothing has been said openly, there have been hints over the last couple of weeks suggesting someone in some family connected to the church is unwell. Presumably what was being said was a slap in the face to someone who is or is related to a person who is ill. Wonderful. God demands that bodies must rot and men must die in order to satisfy some obscure point of doctrinal symbolism. The old bugger who was lecturing us really needs to open his eyes to just how "holy" his beloved scriptures really are. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 The "life is in the blood". I bet he doesn't object to infusions. So stupid to try to make this a religious topic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Believers are full of such crap until they need a transplant themselves......then they soon abandon "points of doctrine" If Christianity was true (and its not by the way, for any Christian lurkers reading), then prayers would work and organs would be repaired by the powerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr of Christ..................... The fact that Church going Christians see a doctor when ill, for a real cure, rather than a vicar, shows what they really believe , when the chips are down 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 After posting the above it lead to a rather tense conversation with Mrs Ellinas (based on my not having conformed to the standard practice of following references to the bible by opening one at the verses being read) which went thus: Her: "I think XXXXXX tends to mumble these days. Some of the brethren couldn't hear him properly." Me: "Probably just as well." Her: "Why didn't you use your bible?" Me: "Because I knew what was coming. It was my little protest. His views are just plain immoral." Her: "That's childish." Me: "You are right. Would you have preferred I took the alternative approach, shouted 'That's bollocks' and walked out?" Seems she did not find that the preferable alternative... It's not been mentioned since. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I remember a couple of serious discussions in the church among church ladies in the 80's that they didn't want to donate their organs because "at the resurrection, how will god know where my organs are?" So much for their omniscient being. "Hmm, now WHERE is Susie's liver?" It's very offensive to use that as an excuse to not donate organs. People die every day from organ failure. I can't think of a good reason to not donate, but any religious reason is especially heinous. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 *groan* Choosing not to donate for whatever reason is one thing. Your religion demanding that you must not use your own body as you see fit because God would be displeased is another. Of course, these people might have opted out of donation even without religion, but bringing God into it is ridiculous. It's your body, your most basic belongings. Therefore, it's your choice, not God's. It's not even that God cares about our bodies or anything like that. He (let's pretend biblegod exists) just can't stand the idea of his possessions being dismantled when they're no longer living, even to save another one of them. This issue is really about God's ownership of us, not silly stuff like human dignity and not being taken apart when we have passed away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylastelephant Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 This morning. As you all know (or at least, will know if you've stumbled across some older posts) I still accompany Mrs Ellinas to church on a Sunday morning. Over the last week or so the Welsh government has altered the rules on organ donation. Previously, you had to be a card carrying donor. Now, you are a potential donor unless you opt-out. Now, it is true I never had a donor card - though that was more down to not really thinking about it than anything else. In truth, as long as I've finished with them, they can have my organs if it will help someone else. Not according to one old believer. We were subjected to a 15 minute diatribe on how the body is also redeemed, how donation in "unseemly" and this scheme just plain wrong. Apparently it is quite "seemly" to allow organs to rot under 6 feet of earth, but not to use them to save a life and alleviate suffering. That annoyed me quite enough. But something else as well - 2 people walked out, a mother and daughter. The latter seemed quite upset. Though nothing has been said openly, there have been hints over the last couple of weeks suggesting someone in some family connected to the church is unwell. Presumably what was being said was a slap in the face to someone who is or is related to a person who is ill. Wonderful. God demands that bodies must rot and men must die in order to satisfy some obscure point of doctrinal symbolism. The old bugger who was lecturing us really needs to open his eyes to just how "holy" his beloved scriptures really are. Anger. A feeling you get that warns you that you want to hurt somebody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I always saw anger as a sign my boundaries or values had been violated… and the energy to do something about it. That's just me… but it works pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylastelephant Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I always saw anger as a sign my boundaries or values had been violated… and the energy to do something about it. That's just me… but it works pretty well.Yes, but any emotions can be set as a positive or negative. Positive anger is when you feel nice when you feel angry, kind of like being medicated. And negative anger is when you go around purposely hurting people, which also feels pretty nice too. But the natural 0 state of anger is warning you, that you might hurt someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylastelephant Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I always saw anger as a sign my boundaries or values had been violated… and the energy to do something about it. That's just me… but it works pretty well.Yes, but any emotions can be set as a positive or negative. Positive anger is when you feel nice when you feel angry, kind of like being medicated. And negative anger is when you go around purposely hurting people, which also feels pretty nice too. But the natural 0 state of anger is warning you, that you might hurt someone. Ok before someone freaks out thinking their stuck that way don't. You can't set any emotions positive or negative permanently. You only set it that way out of a want, you want the emotion to be either positive or negative. So instead this is what you do, don't want the emotion to be either positive or negative. Then from there you can tell what it's warning you of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I always saw anger as a sign my boundaries or values had been violated… and the energy to do something about it. That's just me… but it works pretty well.Yes, but any emotions can be set as a positive or negative. Positive anger is when you feel nice when you feel angry, kind of like being medicated. And negative anger is when you go around purposely hurting people, which also feels pretty nice too. But the natural 0 state of anger is warning you, that you might hurt someone. I never get to the zero state. Only about .026. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylastelephant Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I always saw anger as a sign my boundaries or values had been violated… and the energy to do something about it. That's just me… but it works pretty well.Yes, but any emotions can be set as a positive or negative. Positive anger is when you feel nice when you feel angry, kind of like being medicated. And negative anger is when you go around purposely hurting people, which also feels pretty nice too. But the natural 0 state of anger is warning you, that you might hurt someone. I never get to the zero state. Only about .026. I got to the 99.9 negative state once, ill not say anything further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 Actually, anger is nothing to be feared or suppressed. Controlled and directed, yes (not necessarily easy, I grant you). It is a great motivating force if used correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCM Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Holy shit, I knew jehovah's witnesses were like that with no blood transfusions and such, but mainstream christians? (i'm using that term very loosely, I have no idea what kind of church the mrs attends). so you are supposed to lay down your life for your friend, but can't spare an organ even after your dead? is there any bible dribble that supports this or is it just "hey, lets invent new ways to be ungenerous, unhelpful drags on society" and what about accepting organ donations? If your'e kid is alive because of an organ transplant, are you supposed to tell them it's wrong, and god dosen't want their new life saving organ inside them? I can't see any upside to this belief, it seems completely irrational to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted June 27, 2015 Author Share Posted June 27, 2015 SCM, it's a Brethren assembly. There is no "official" doctrine as such, but I have met a member who takes a similar view to the JW's to blood transfusion. He's very much in the minority on that. As to the issue of organ donation, I suspect that the idea of the resurrection of the body is what is behind this particular bit of nonsense. It also leads to a refusal to countenance cremation, on the basis that the body must be "sown in corruption" ready to be raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yunea Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 I remember a couple of serious discussions in the church among church ladies in the 80's that they didn't want to donate their organs because "at the resurrection, how will god know where my organs are?" So much for their omniscient being. "Hmm, now WHERE is Susie's liver?" What if small worms ate it in the grave as it rotted? Wouldn't that be a little problematic too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sylensikeelyoo Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 Wooooow. Never heard of that. That's crazy. So like, if I wanted to let someone have my body parts I'm not using because I'm dead, somehow God thinks this is wrong? What fucking sense does that make at all? Ellinas , you chill with some crazy fucked up peeps at your church, bro. But I can't say much different. The peeps at my church think people going to hell just for THINKING about sinning. Not even actually committing the sin. Just thinking about it. So yeah. WTF, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 I'll have to remember that if I'm in an accident or something and die, that my broken body and shed blood can't be used to help other people. It would just be un-Christian. I mean, Jesus Himself would never condone such a thing, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yunea Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 We can (and should) consume the body and blood of jesus, but we may never donate a bit of our bodies to save a life, not even when we don't need it at all anymore due to death! Makes sense...not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stamps1962 Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 Back when I was attending evangelical churches I ran into people who were dead set against cremation. It was like they have a horror of it. Something about it scares them that they are not going to be resurrected, or something. I think their fear stems from the fact that this is just another thing that makes them stop and have to think about how illogical their belief system is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellinas Posted July 5, 2015 Author Share Posted July 5, 2015 Wooooow. Never heard of that. That's crazy. So like, if I wanted to let someone have my body parts I'm not using because I'm dead, somehow God thinks this is wrong? What fucking sense does that make at all? Ellinas , you chill with some crazy fucked up peeps at your church, bro. But I can't say much different. The peeps at my church think people going to hell just for THINKING about sinning. Not even actually committing the sin. Just thinking about it. So yeah. WTF, right? Yep, I do. Regarding your lot and their thoughts - well, they have the text that tells them that if they lust after someone they've already committed adultery in their hearts... I suppose there is a sort of logic in saying "how can thinking about sin not be sinful" - which was John Milton's problem in Paradise Lost. How to present Adam and Eve as sinless until they actually ate the fruit, whereas the overall impression is that they "fell" before that point. To be honest, just accepting the doctrinal idea of sin messes with the mind quite enough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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