mylastelephant Posted June 22, 2015 Author Share Posted June 22, 2015 What if I told you faith was a real thing, would you stay for a moment and hear me out. Or would you detest such a concept. What if I told you faith can be demonstrated, that it's faculty that our brains need to survive the world around us. What if I told you that all faith religion's is in fact an oxymoron. What if I told you that faith is how our minds deal with logical paradox's and religion has been milking us by convincing everybody that faith comes from them. Have you heard the term "Try to make the best of a worst situation." This is pretty much faith in a nutshell. Example. Your girlfriend or boyfriend walk's out on you one night and says that they're never coming back. The first thing that happens after you hear there car drive away, is that a mental paradox is created. (Will they be back or are they gone?) The rational mind can not decide which is true, this is because the rational mind can only accept an absolute. (Right or wrong) So what's the mind going to do if it can't decide from either? Well I think you all know that feeling. From here the brain needs some kind of redundancy back up to deal with the mental dilemma. This is where faith is crucial otherwise the rational mind will tear itself apart. Faith in a nutshell is hope. You hope for the best outcome (Your partner returning home after they calm down) and preparing for the worst possible outcome at the same time (I'll deal with it in the morning if they don't return) The reason faith is important here is because it can live in a paradox and a this kind of paradox feeds on subjectivity. Something the rational mind can't do. When the religious people tell you to put your faith in god their only half right. In fact faith has to go into the thing that's causing the paradox. In this case your partner, this way you can be fairly sedated so you won't have another screaming match if they suddenly return home and you've been mentally torturing yourself for not using your faith. Faith is as much a "real thing" as Darth Vader is a "real thing". Now with that said faith was how OBL brainwashed a bunch of people into carrying out suicide attacks. So faith does have real world effects. You keep using the word "paradox". I do not think it means what you think it means. Faith didn't kill no one, delusion did. If you believe in a sky fairy that tells you to kill people then a delusion killed people. Faith is not a belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Faith didn't kill no one, delusion did. If you believe in a sky fairy that tells you to kill people then a delusion killed people. Faith is not a belief. Faith is delusion. Faith is the kind of belief that is detached from or flies in the face of empirical evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 When did hope become an emotion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 When did hope become an emotion? Perhaps that is not the best description for hope. What would you call hope? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 No I mean the paradox itself feeds on the subjective experience which the rational mind can't resolve.Of course the rational mind can resolve it. Your analogy refers to being in a hyper-emotional state - at a point where nothing can be resolved at all (in reference to faith, this is what charismatic/evangelical religions do during a worship service when they work people up into emotional frenzies - so you are correct in that regard..."faith" is beyond rational reasoning at that point since the "experience" is real to the emotions). Once the emotions settle the rational mind can work towards a solution. Ok, you get a phone call at night, the police tell you your daughters been in an accident and you better come down. You ask if she's ok and they say look you better just come. In your mind your daughter is dead and alive. Resolve it. The police would never say to you, just come. I have and have had in the past friends who were police officers. They never just call you and say come down. They actually stop by your place of residence to let you know about a family member. Resolved Yes, coroners and cops do death notifications. In person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Well the only emotion I've ever been able to use in that situation would be hope, there's simply no other emotion that can deal with that kind of contradiction. But that's the point. Emotions do not "deal with" the contradictions or problems. Emotions MASK the problems (or make you aware of problems) until they can be dealt with rationally. Emotions are absolutely necessary, but one cannot live in a perpetual hyper-emotional state because nothing is properly dealt with. Watch the new Disney movie "Inside Out"...it deals with this subject beautifully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Well the only emotion I've ever been able to use in that situation would be hope, there's simply no other emotion that can deal with that kind of contradiction. Emotions do not resolve contradictions. No they don't but the emotion hope just sedates you while the mind resolves the contradiction. Hope is an attempt to sedate. Anxiety and worry may override hope or faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 What if I told you faith was a real thing, would you stay for a moment and hear me out. Or would you detest such a concept. What if I told you faith can be demonstrated, that it's faculty that our brains need to survive the world around us. What if I told you that all faith religion's is in fact an oxymoron. What if I told you that faith is how our minds deal with logical paradox's and religion has been milking us by convincing everybody that faith comes from them. Have you heard the term "Try to make the best of a worst situation." This is pretty much faith in a nutshell. Example. Your girlfriend or boyfriend walk's out on you one night and says that they're never coming back. The first thing that happens after you hear there car drive away, is that a mental paradox is created. (Will they be back or are they gone?) The rational mind can not decide which is true, this is because the rational mind can only accept an absolute. (Right or wrong) So what's the mind going to do if it can't decide from either? Well I think you all know that feeling. From here the brain needs some kind of redundancy back up to deal with the mental dilemma. This is where faith is crucial otherwise the rational mind will tear itself apart. Faith in a nutshell is hope. You hope for the best outcome (Your partner returning home after they calm down) and preparing for the worst possible outcome at the same time (I'll deal with it in the morning if they don't return) The reason faith is important here is because it can live in a paradox and a this kind of paradox feeds on subjectivity. Something the rational mind can't do. When the religious people tell you to put your faith in god their only half right. In fact faith has to go into the thing that's causing the paradox. In this case your partner, this way you can be fairly sedated so you won't have another screaming match if they suddenly return home and you've been mentally torturing yourself for not using your faith. It might be helpful if you provide your definition(s) of "faith" before going any further. There are a few in most dictionaries and there are many others, depending on who is doing the talking. You seem to be using a definition all your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 When did hope become an emotion? Perhaps that is not the best description for hope. What would you call hope? I guess I think of hope as a state of mind or a given way of thinking about a certain thing. A mindset. It looked odd to me to see hope described as an emotion. I know emotions and thought both come from the same brain, but so do my fine motor skills and I wouldn't define them as an emotion. What I was getting at is if hope is an emotion then it follows that faith is too, and I don't think it is. I see that Sdelsolray is calling for a definition of what faith is to the OP, so I'll wait and see what that answer is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylastelephant Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 When did hope become an emotion?Since the hippy movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylastelephant Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 Well the only emotion I've ever been able to use in that situation would be hope, there's simply no other emotion that can deal with that kind of contradiction.Emotions do not resolve contradictions.No they don't but the emotion hope just sedates you while the mind resolves the contradiction. Hope is an attempt to sedate. Anxiety and worry may override hope or faith. Yes and both nasty feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylastelephant Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 I've noticed how this thread has gone dead, and I'd like to come at hope "faith" at a fresh angle. It was asked and fairly what scientific process can be demonstrated for hope being a real chemical process. I will have to say that this may be an impossibility, simply because the processes that trigger the "hope" reaction are more in depth than one chemical process. Take rejection for instance, most people have felt rejected but don't doubt the sense data simply because they have no scientific proof first. I think the sensitive point is that "hope" has being typecast to religion and faith it's bitch. Since faith is a process of hoping for the best and preparing for the worst in a contractive dilemma that the rational mind has no ability to cope with, then I see no reason why anyone shouldn't use it under those conditions. It's called faith, because its the method to dealing with a subjective contradiction. So in a sense those christians who say just have faith are really saying, hope that you'll go to heaven but you better be prepared if you go to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueScholar Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 First, science does not "prove" or provide "proof" for anything. The scientific method is a nuianced method of analysing the world, making predictions and testing said predictions. Finally, the frameworks, results and methods used to make and test these predictions are published so others can examine, reproduce and critique. Any idea that cannot be examined with this process in mind is simply not something that can be discussed with science in mind. Again, science is not "chemistry" or some other "science sounding" word. It is a general method for looking at the physical world and making predictions that can be tested and examined. Chemistry, physics and biology are specialised disciplines that fall under the umbrella of science, but all of these disciplines utilise the scientific method to make predictions and better understand the world as it applies to said discipline. Next, cognitive neuroscience has made pretty big advances in elucidating the mechanisms of and generally understanding complex cognitive processes. This includes concepts involving complex "subjective" experiences. Functional MRI has played a big role in this and we are now beginning to understand how areas of the brain function and the advanced integration involved and yes, we are also making advances when it comes to concepts that have traditionally been thought of as being "subjective." While a robust picture has yet to be produced, contemporary advances have been startlingly illuminating. As I've stated in other threads, I first took biological sciences undergrad classes back in the 90's to include a year sequence of anatomy and physiology and labs. Much of the neurology that I learned has advanced in ways that I could never have imagined. Hell, we didn't have a robust understanding of how our cells created high energy phosphate molecules until around the time I was born and it wasn't that long ago; or so I will posit in my "subjective" opinion as this dates me somewhat. Think about that if you will. Less than half a century ago we were just beginning to understand the major metabolic pathways of cells and now we are looking at how neuro-networks produce the emergent properties that are a result of complex biochemical processes. Again, I need to ask, how does your understanding of "faith" fit into the scientific method? If it doesn't and cannot be empirically scrutinised, it is likely not an idea that should be discussed with said method in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I've noticed how this thread has gone dead, and I'd like to come at hope "faith" at a fresh angle. It was asked and fairly what scientific process can be demonstrated for hope being a real chemical process. I will have to say that this may be an impossibility, simply because the processes that trigger the "hope" reaction are more in depth than one chemical process. Take rejection for instance, most people have felt rejected but don't doubt the sense data simply because they have no scientific proof first. I think the sensitive point is that "hope" has being typecast to religion and faith it's bitch. Since faith is a process of hoping for the best and preparing for the worst in a contractive dilemma that the rational mind has no ability to cope with, then I see no reason why anyone shouldn't use it under those conditions. It's called faith, because its the method to dealing with a subjective contradiction. So in a sense those christians who say just have faith are really saying, hope that you'll go to heaven but you better be prepared if you go to hell. Please respond to post #33 above, which is repeated directly below: It might be helpful if you provide your definition(s) of "faith" before going any further. There are a few in most dictionaries and there are many others, depending on who is doing the talking. You seem to be using a definition all your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 25, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2015 Dafuq is this thread about? I mean besides about two pages too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueScholar Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I'm not entirely sure. I'm trying to see how the OP's take on faith relates to the scientific method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Dafuq is this thread about? I mean besides about two pages too long. Well, you said on page one that you weren't smart enough to follow along, and now you are still wondering what this thread is all about. You seem to be a reasonable enough guy, so I'll try to get you caught up. In the OP, mle states that faith is a real thing. For example, if something bad happens, you need to not jump to conclusions about it until you know what's going on. This is called faith, and it helps the mind from blowing itself apart. Also, he maintains that hope is an emotion, and I myself have been trying to determine if he believes that faith is also an emotion. Sdelsolray is trying to get an explanation of what the word "faith" means as used by the OP, and I concur with his inquiry. Apparently, it's some chemical stuff, but much more than that too. Other than that, I think you have a pretty good handle on what the thread is about, and I hope this helps you out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 25, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted June 25, 2015 Thanks. I feel better. I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyesOpened Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Dafuq is this thread about? I mean besides about two pages too long. Well, you said on page one that you weren't smart enough to follow along, and now you are still wondering what this thread is all about. You seem to be a reasonable enough guy, so I'll try to get you caught up. In the OP, mle states that faith is a real thing. For example, if something bad happens, you need to not jump to conclusions about it until you know what's going on. This is called faith, and it helps the mind from blowing itself apart. Also, he maintains that hope is an emotion, and I myself have been trying to determine if he believes that faith is also an emotion. Sdelsolray is trying to get an explanation of what the word "faith" means as used by the OP, and I concur with his inquiry. Apparently, it's some chemical stuff, but much more than that too. Other than that, I think you have a pretty good handle on what the thread is about, and I hope this helps you out. ^^^^^^^^^Good stuff right there^^^^^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Dafuq is this thread about? I mean besides about two pages too long. Its about faith becoming an inevitable emotion that results in hope while creating a contradictory paradox. Geez! Do I have to explain everything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Dafuq is this thread about? I mean besides about two pages too long.Its about faith becoming an inevitable emotion that results in hope while creating a contradictory paradox. Geez! Do I have to explain everything? Yes. Yes you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I don't like the definition of faith as hoping for the best while preparing for the worst. This is not what people usually mean when they say "faith", so I think it's a counter-productive definition. Also, the situations which OP has presented in this thread are not really paradoxes. They're just situations where more information is required. In such situations we can hope for whatever we like, but we need to suspend judgement until we have more information. When people make a claim of faith, what they are often saying is "I don't have all the information, but I don't need it! I know that X is the case because I have faith!". This is neither helpful nor sensible. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Viktor Frankl has done a lot of work on the meaning of life and he has done a lot of study, both personal and observational, on the effects of hope and how it works in the life of a human. I took a class in college called the Psychology of Hope and he had a lot to say about it. You might look into this and see what you could glean from his insight. Here is a little background on Mr. Frankl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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