Crap! Need Help!

[Daffodil]

Ok, this may be long and disjointed. Apologies.

 

Had lunch with hubby today and we "had it out". Not ugly at all, just very honest and sometimes frustrating. He informed me that he will have a meeting with one of our friends from church next week that is completely unrelated to church stuff, but that the topic of our absence will undoubtedly come up. She also hosted our small group with her husband before taking a break last year to do Alpha. We loved that group, despite the awkwardness of our differing beliefs, but took advantage of their break to distance ourselves from the church (actually I took advantage of it - hubby wanted to find a new group and I successfully delayed it until now.). She and her husband are starting a new group this fall and she will ask if we're interested. That's were our conversation got real interesting.

 

Backstory - I won't go back over my testimony here (see Losing My Faith in Kansas, if interested), but my hubby told me almost three years ago that he was basically agnostic because despite praying for years for God to make himself known to him, he never had. At the time, I was still a Christian and it really threw me. I remember throwing the usual arguments at him such as: where will you get meaning in life, will you leave me and the kids and go sow your wild oats, how will we raise our kids, now, and on and on. He and I have always had a great deal of respect for each other and so I didn't lay it on as thick as some might, but I pulled the usual tricks. He returned the usual atheist/agnostic responses that I now believe: meaning comes from within, I love you, so why would I leave you, etc. The only difference was in his response to the kid question - he thinks they need that Christian worldview basis to start. Where they go from there is up to them. I disagree, and that is where it got a little frustrating for both of us.

 

I think I shared that part with you all before, but here's the part I didn't share that makes this so difficult to talk to him about it. He was raised agnostic. He remembers noticing that other kids would have somewhere to go on Sunday mornings and sometimes Wednesday nights, but his family never did. He remembers feeling like his family wasn't "normal" because of that. He longed for a sense of being "normal" as a child. I've told him that those things were never fun for me and that it was not everything he thinks it was. He acknowledges that, but still feels that those were just my experiences and that I am a little jaded because of that. He told me he never got any sense of meaning from that upbringing and it was like his family was just going through the motions of living without caring about anything. That left him with a profound need to find meaning in life. When he was approached by hardcore Christians in college, he was ripe for the pickings.

 

He says he still thinks that Christians are the nicest people he knows and that he's never met agnostics or atheists that he wanted to spend time with. I pointed out that he probably just hasn't met the nice ones and that there are plenty of ugly-hearted Christians out there. He acknowledged that but said that atheists don't gather in groups to encourage and support each other (untrue, but unfortunately I can't find any groups in our area). They don't ask him how his relationship with his son is going or give him opportunities to bond with his son (recently a fishing/camping/father/son event our church held). We have few friends outside of church and he really misses going and seeing those people.

 

Sigh. What do I do with this? He says that though he's never felt the presence of God, he still keeps his mind open for the possibility. He doesn't believe the bible stories are factual, just myths, but that doesn't bother him. He says going through the motions and attending without believing is doable for him. He wants the kids to have a basic grounding in Christian worldview, while keeping them thinking and reflecting on everything they hear and learn. When I ask him if I can tell them what I really think, he balks at it. He wants us to answer their questions honestly, but not be so adamant about our (really my) lack of belief. I do tend to be much more black and white in my thinking, less willing to live in the gray as he is, so I get his distaste for my passion, but still.

 

I told him what I did on Pinterest and he didn't mind that. I told him he could tell her whatever he wanted to and we kind of left it open for a future discussion, but geeze! It's like we flip-flopped on this whole thing! What, if anything, can I say or do here! I respect him and love him so much I don't want to disregard his feelings. Any thoughts/ideas would be most welcome. Sorry for the length.

[GraphicsGuy]

The world has changed since your husband was a kid. I kind of doubt your kids feel "abnormal" these days.

 

From my personal experience (the extreme opposite of your husband's), I believe that a Christian worldview is unhealthy and excessively narrow.

 

I can definitely relate to his desire to want to belong to something.

 

What about getting the kids involved in some kind of sports or dance or whatever in an effort to "normalize" them and give you opportunities to meet other parents?

[FreeThinkerNZ]

There is plenty of opportunity to find meaning in life as an atheist.  The thing that gets me excited about being alive is science.  The fact that humans have evolved the intelligence and language skills to discover so much about the world is mindblowing.  And the fact that so much still needs to be discovered, so we can solve problems and improve the lives of billions of people, animals and the environment.  Every child needs to be given the chance to get excited about science and maybe go into a science career if they want to.  IMO there's more than enough "meaning" in these pursuits for me.  We are incredibly lucky to be alive at this time and we owe it to future generations to make the most of it.

[ConscientiousObjector]

I was just like your husband for most of my life. I couldn't force myself to believe, but dammit, I wanted to, so badly. I think it was just a symptom of my own self-doubt, and a strong feeling that other people were privy to a secret of happiness and meaning that I didn't have. I wish I had advice on how to change his mindset, but for me it was just a culmination of my doubts combined with a renewed interest in science and history. Is he interested in science? My husband and I have been watching various shows about science or religion lately, and it has been a huge help in our deconversion process. We found the Bill Nye and Ken Ham debate particularly eye-opening, if only because it highlights the difference between reason and faith.

 

I concur with the replies above. I do believe religion does children more harm than good, and that humanity can be much more moral without it. I don't know what activities you can do with your children to replace the church environment. It really depends on what is available in your area, I'm lucky enough to currently live in a large city, but too poor to afford much. Perhaps you could find friends who aren't religious to go camping or fishing with. I hope you and your husband can find common ground and come up with a solution. Good luck!

[TheOutsider]

The idea that the christian worldview is something worth building your life on is bullshit. The idea that the christian worldview is worth building your kids lives on, is a fuck-ton of grade-A Bullshit™ straight from the tap.

If you will excuse my use of colorful language.

Sure, there are nice christians out there, but they aren't nice because they are christian, they are nice because that's a part of who they are.

 

Forget church, just find something fun and memorable to do every Sunday morning/weekend/whenever. The memories will be a hell of a lot better than some guilt and/or fear inspiring sermon about how much of a worthless piece of shit they are without Jesus every week (Guess I'm still in the rage towards religion stage...), at the very least.

 

My thoughts, for what they're worth.

[midniterider]

Ok, this may be long and disjointed. Apologies.

 

Had lunch with hubby today and we "had it out". Not ugly at all, just very honest and sometimes frustrating. He informed me that he will have a meeting with one of our friends from church next week that is completely unrelated to church stuff, but that the topic of our absence will undoubtedly come up. She also hosted our small group with her husband before taking a break last year to do Alpha. We loved that group, despite the awkwardness of our differing beliefs, but took advantage of their break to distance ourselves from the church (actually I took advantage of it - hubby wanted to find a new group and I successfully delayed it until now.). She and her husband are starting a new group this fall and she will ask if we're interested. That's were our conversation got real interesting.

 

Backstory - I won't go back over my testimony here (see Losing My Faith in Kansas, if interested), but my hubby told me almost three years ago that he was basically agnostic because despite praying for years for God to make himself known to him, he never had. At the time, I was still a Christian and it really threw me. I remember throwing the usual arguments at him such as: where will you get meaning in life, will you leave me and the kids and go sow your wild oats, how will we raise our kids, now, and on and on. He and I have always had a great deal of respect for each other and so I didn't lay it on as thick as some might, but I pulled the usual tricks. He returned the usual atheist/agnostic responses that I now believe: meaning comes from within, I love you, so why would I leave you, etc. The only difference was in his response to the kid question - he thinks they need that Christian worldview basis to start. Where they go from there is up to them. I disagree, and that is where it got a little frustrating for both of us.

 

I think I shared that part with you all before, but here's the part I didn't share that makes this so difficult to talk to him about it. He was raised agnostic. He remembers noticing that other kids would have somewhere to go on Sunday mornings and sometimes Wednesday nights, but his family never did. He remembers feeling like his family wasn't "normal" because of that. He longed for a sense of being "normal" as a child. I've told him that those things were never fun for me and that it was not everything he thinks it was. He acknowledges that, but still feels that those were just my experiences and that I am a little jaded because of that. He told me he never got any sense of meaning from that upbringing and it was like his family was just going through the motions of living without caring about anything. That left him with a profound need to find meaning in life. When he was approached by hardcore Christians in college, he was ripe for the pickings.

 

He says he still thinks that Christians are the nicest people he knows and that he's never met agnostics or atheists that he wanted to spend time with. I pointed out that he probably just hasn't met the nice ones and that there are plenty of ugly-hearted Christians out there. He acknowledged that but said that atheists don't gather in groups to encourage and support each other (untrue, but unfortunately I can't find any groups in our area). They don't ask him how his relationship with his son is going or give him opportunities to bond with his son (recently a fishing/camping/father/son event our church held). We have few friends outside of church and he really misses going and seeing those people.

 

Sigh. What do I do with this? He says that though he's never felt the presence of God, he still keeps his mind open for the possibility. He doesn't believe the bible stories are factual, just myths, but that doesn't bother him. He says going through the motions and attending without believing is doable for him. He wants the kids to have a basic grounding in Christian worldview, while keeping them thinking and reflecting on everything they hear and learn. When I ask him if I can tell them what I really think, he balks at it. He wants us to answer their questions honestly, but not be so adamant about our (really my) lack of belief. I do tend to be much more black and white in my thinking, less willing to live in the gray as he is, so I get his distaste for my passion, but still.

 

I told him what I did on Pinterest and he didn't mind that. I told him he could tell her whatever he wanted to and we kind of left it open for a future discussion, but geeze! It's like we flip-flopped on this whole thing! What, if anything, can I say or do here! I respect him and love him so much I don't want to disregard his feelings. Any thoughts/ideas would be most welcome. Sorry for the length.

 

He wants them to have a grounding in the Christian worldview...that he doesn't much believe in anymore. Sending the kids to church probably wont destroy them since neither of their parents are very religious anymore. And if they are encouraged to think and reflect on everything they hear and learn they will be questioning the BS at church. The children will be the way their non-believing parents have raised them.

 

Hopefully dad will explain to the children honestly his own feelings that the bible is myth, he's never felt the presence of God (for how many years?)  and that church for him is basically some tradition that he does for some unexplainable reason.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I think if the kids go to church there is always the risk that they will be infected with the god virus despite the views of either or both of their parents.

 

And this quote explains my view quite well too:

 

[mylastelephant]

Ok, this may be long and disjointed. Apologies.

 

Had lunch with hubby today and we "had it out". Not ugly at all, just very honest and sometimes frustrating. He informed me that he will have a meeting with one of our friends from church next week that is completely unrelated to church stuff, but that the topic of our absence will undoubtedly come up. She also hosted our small group with her husband before taking a break last year to do Alpha. We loved that group, despite the awkwardness of our differing beliefs, but took advantage of their break to distance ourselves from the church (actually I took advantage of it - hubby wanted to find a new group and I successfully delayed it until now.). She and her husband are starting a new group this fall and she will ask if we're interested. That's were our conversation got real interesting.

 

Backstory - I won't go back over my testimony here (see Losing My Faith in Kansas, if interested), but my hubby told me almost three years ago that he was basically agnostic because despite praying for years for God to make himself known to him, he never had. At the time, I was still a Christian and it really threw me. I remember throwing the usual arguments at him such as: where will you get meaning in life, will you leave me and the kids and go sow your wild oats, how will we raise our kids, now, and on and on. He and I have always had a great deal of respect for each other and so I didn't lay it on as thick as some might, but I pulled the usual tricks. He returned the usual atheist/agnostic responses that I now believe: meaning comes from within, I love you, so why would I leave you, etc. The only difference was in his response to the kid question - he thinks they need that Christian worldview basis to start. Where they go from there is up to them. I disagree, and that is where it got a little frustrating for both of us.

 

I think I shared that part with you all before, but here's the part I didn't share that makes this so difficult to talk to him about it. He was raised agnostic. He remembers noticing that other kids would have somewhere to go on Sunday mornings and sometimes Wednesday nights, but his family never did. He remembers feeling like his family wasn't "normal" because of that. He longed for a sense of being "normal" as a child. I've told him that those things were never fun for me and that it was not everything he thinks it was. He acknowledges that, but still feels that those were just my experiences and that I am a little jaded because of that. He told me he never got any sense of meaning from that upbringing and it was like his family was just going through the motions of living without caring about anything. That left him with a profound need to find meaning in life. When he was approached by hardcore Christians in college, he was ripe for the pickings.

 

He says he still thinks that Christians are the nicest people he knows and that he's never met agnostics or atheists that he wanted to spend time with. I pointed out that he probably just hasn't met the nice ones and that there are plenty of ugly-hearted Christians out there. He acknowledged that but said that atheists don't gather in groups to encourage and support each other (untrue, but unfortunately I can't find any groups in our area). They don't ask him how his relationship with his son is going or give him opportunities to bond with his son (recently a fishing/camping/father/son event our church held). We have few friends outside of church and he really misses going and seeing those people.

 

Sigh. What do I do with this? He says that though he's never felt the presence of God, he still keeps his mind open for the possibility. He doesn't believe the bible stories are factual, just myths, but that doesn't bother him. He says going through the motions and attending without believing is doable for him. He wants the kids to have a basic grounding in Christian worldview, while keeping them thinking and reflecting on everything they hear and learn. When I ask him if I can tell them what I really think, he balks at it. He wants us to answer their questions honestly, but not be so adamant about our (really my) lack of belief. I do tend to be much more black and white in my thinking, less willing to live in the gray as he is, so I get his distaste for my passion, but still.

 

I told him what I did on Pinterest and he didn't mind that. I told him he could tell her whatever he wanted to and we kind of left it open for a future discussion, but geeze! It's like we flip-flopped on this whole thing! What, if anything, can I say or do here! I respect him and love him so much I don't want to disregard his feelings. Any thoughts/ideas would be most welcome. Sorry for the length.

Love is a two way learning relationship. If your feeling rejected constantly it's because your partner doesn't want to learn about you anymore. If your also feeling lonely, that's because you don't want to learn about your partner in return. However there is a way to have a one way relationship with someone, it's called being in love. In love means that your in a learning relationship one way.

 

But you would have choose to desire to learn, but if that desire never gets returned you will just feel rejected.

[Fweethawt]

To me this sounds quite one-sided. Especially after reading this little tidbit...

 

"He acknowledges that, but still feels that those were just my experiences and that I am a little jaded because of that."

 

Well -- the exact same can be said about his approach. Just because he felt left out and lonely when the other kids got to go to church, that doesn't mean that your kids feel the same way.

[Burny]

Sorry to be blunt but if your hubby honestly believes that teaching his kids outright lies about the nature of reality and indoctrinating them with false beliefs that will impact their lives is the best way to raise them, he is either still a deluded xtian or simply not thinking straight!!

[Daffodil]

Thank you all for responding. Keep it coming! It helps me to understand and be able to articulate my own position better. As some of you pointed out, his reasoning isn't exactly rational. That's part of the problem - you can't debate feelings! I tried to explain my fears of the kids getting indoctrinated and he said we would just talk and answer questions honestly. I'm not at all worried about my daughter because she has always resisted the notion that there is a sentient being out there that she can't see or hear. It's my son that I really want to protect. He accepts what he is told with little thought. If a person in authority tells him it's true, then that's good enough for him. He even argues with us when we disagree with something he believes! I don't think it's an age thing (he's nine), but one of personality. Then again, it does give us the opportunity to get him to really examine his beliefs rather than accepting things blindly.

 

We already have "bonding times" with our kids, so that's not a valid argument. He's not particularly interested in science and really doesn't like watching or hearing about programs that refute biblical claims. As I said, he already believes they're all myths. It really seems to be about feelings, losing social ties, and reliving the past. Thankfully, he's not willing to force the issue and indicated he would tell our friend that we're not ready to join a group again yet. I've noticed over the years that he reacts strongly to new things at first, then eases into them if I give him time. I am also continuing to try to figure out how to broaden our social network beyond church. Surprisingly harder than I expected!

[Daffodil]

Burny et al - I honestly think he believes it's harmless. I've tried to explain some of the concerns, but because he was never exposed to this stuff as a child, he just doesn't get it. There were many things that he never "bought" when he became a Christian in college - he used to tell me that the only thing that mattered was believing that Jesus was the son of God and that he died for our sins. Everything else is a debatable side issue. So, I really don't think he understands the deep-seated damage it can do. He doesn't want to hear me go on about it because he's never really seen much of it or experienced it. In truth, the church we currently belong to is very open-minded and accepting of differing views, so while good in that sense, it still has people in it (some of whom teach kids' sunday school) that may still hold on to more fundamental views.

 

I don't know. Maybe this church is mild enough that it won't be that big of a deal. But here's the thing, my daughter's Sunday school teachers (teenagers and young women) have started an evening bible study for the girls in the class. I haven't told my daughter about it because I don't want her to want to attend for social reasons and then get influenced that way. Of course knowing how she thinks, she probably wouldn't want to go anyway, but if she attends Sunday school and sees the other girls are closer because of the bible study, she may feel left out and want to join for that reason. Actually, she probably would just want to stop attending Sunday school, knowing her, lol! Ok, I sound like a mother hen. I need to stop overthinking this. Maybe I just need to relax and wait this out. Parenting is such a rewarding but stressful endeavor! If it were just my hubby and I, it wouldn't be such a big deal!

[midniterider]

I think if the kids go to church there is always the risk that they will be infected with the god virus despite the views of either or both of their parents.

 

And this quote explains my view quite well too:

 

 

That is true. LIfe is risky.

 

Thank you all for responding. Keep it coming! It helps me to understand and be able to articulate my own position better. As some of you pointed out, his reasoning isn't exactly rational. That's part of the problem - you can't debate feelings! I tried to explain my fears of the kids getting indoctrinated and he said we would just talk and answer questions honestly. I'm not at all worried about my daughter because she has always resisted the notion that there is a sentient being out there that she can't see or hear. It's my son that I really want to protect. He accepts what he is told with little thought. If a person in authority tells him it's true, then that's good enough for him. He even argues with us when we disagree with something he believes! I don't think it's an age thing (he's nine), but one of personality. Then again, it does give us the opportunity to get him to really examine his beliefs rather than accepting things blindly.

 

We already have "bonding times" with our kids, so that's not a valid argument. He's not particularly interested in science and really doesn't like watching or hearing about programs that refute biblical claims. As I said, he already believes they're all myths. It really seems to be about feelings, losing social ties, and reliving the past. Thankfully, he's not willing to force the issue and indicated he would tell our friend that we're not ready to join a group again yet. I've noticed over the years that he reacts strongly to new things at first, then eases into them if I give him time. I am also continuing to try to figure out how to broaden our social network beyond church. Surprisingly harder than I expected!

 

Replacement social networking would help. Maybe getting hubby and kids going in sports or any other non-church activity would be great. Get them so they are too busy for church. Soccer, basketball, baseball, karate lessons, singing lessons, music lessons, bowling league, some outdoors club,

 

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