mylastelephant Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Could a christian help me resolve this paradox. If in your mind God is good and everything he makes is good, then is hell also good. If then hell is good then is it as good as heaven. If it is good as heaven then why do many christians fear going there. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubtingNate Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Isaiah 45:7 (KJV): I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all thesethings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylastelephant Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 Isaiah 45:7 (KJV): I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all thesethings. Well I know God does all that, but my question is for christians who say their god doesn't do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Hell was probably a really great place when it was first created, like earth, but, like earth, it isn't good anymore thanks to its occupants. Hell is like Australia a few centuries back (minus the natives). It's a prison colony for souls. So you have these bad angels and these now bad human souls (now that humans eventually die). If nothing is done they'll just roam around civilization doing bad things so instead they're shipped off to the Hell colony where they can live however they like down there. And since they're rotten to the core they do awful things all the time. Just look at Australia. No hope for redemption there. Now some of them are still wondering around here because the bible says that they are and it doesn't say why because it's the bible and it doesn't know why. I don't know why. I'm just pulling this all out of my ass based on what the bible and traditions say. But you can do magic and make them go into pigs which kills them and other things. Maybe they go to hell when that happens? One day a hard rain will fall and that will be it for Hell. It will emptied into the Lake of Fire and then Hell itself will be burned in the Lake of Fire. Somehow the torture of Hell is eternal though. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fweethawt Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Oh how the end of hell will be hell for hell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Obviously not a Christian, but my understanding is that there are several possible answers here. One is that God is good, and cannot abide anything which is not good. Hell is a place which he created for the express and sole purpose of keeping evil out of his sight. It may not have been bad per se; it is made evil by the fact that it is entirely populated by evil beings. Another is that when the Christian says "God is good" he does not mean that what we think of as good is what God is like; rather, he means that whatever God is like, that is what good is. In other words, if God does something, then it is good by definition. It may be good and entirely unpleasant to us. It may even seem heinous, and yet it would still be good because it what God has done. Still another is that God's ways are not our ways, and his thoughts are not our thoughts, and we feeble-minded humans cannot fully understand his actions. Can we draw out the Leviathon on a hook? No? Then shut up. Another is to shrug and quote Stephen King: "If it happens, God lets it happen, and when we say, 'I don't understand,' God replies, 'I don't care.'" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylastelephant Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 Hell could be a good place of torture, if the christian could accept torture as being good. Then they would have to accept hitler was a pretty awesome guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylastelephant Posted June 23, 2015 Author Share Posted June 23, 2015 Hell was probably a really great place when it was first created, like earth, but, like earth, it isn't good anymore thanks to its occupants. Hell is like Australia a few centuries back (minus the natives). It's a prison colony for souls. So you have these bad angels and these now bad human souls (now that humans eventually die). If nothing is done they'll just roam around civilization doing bad things so instead they're shipped off to the Hell colony where they can live however they like down there. And since they're rotten to the core they do awful things all the time. Just look at Australia. No hope for redemption there. Now some of them are still wondering around here because the bible says that they are and it doesn't say why because it's the bible and it doesn't know why. I don't know why. I'm just pulling this all out of my ass based on what the bible and traditions say. But you can do magic and make them go into pigs which kills them and other things. Maybe they go to hell when that happens? One day a hard rain will fall and that will be it for Hell. It will emptied into the Lake of Fire and then Hell itself will be burned in the Lake of Fire. Somehow the torture of Hell is eternal though. mwc A wise guy only creates a paradox to excuses himself for thumping someone when they return a positive or negative comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Why create a special place to put evil things if he created evil himself? Why not just avoid creating evil? I'm trying to think of an analogy. Like making your favorite casserole but putting mouse droppings in it that you then have to pick out and throw away. Why not just leave the mouse droppings out to begin with? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I think the classical theological take would be to say that hell as a place isn't evil. The beings who are punished in hell are good insofar as they are creatures and exist, and it is good for them to exist. To the extent that their wills are evil, Augustine and others cribbed from Plotinus to explain the ontology, or "being," of evil as a privation of good. Something that is evil is so because it lacks a good that it should have. But as a being, it is good insofar as it exists. Old Cornelius van Til opposed this - he was a closet Manichean (set up Evil as a principle opposed to Good but resolved both within God in some inane way). I think Augustine also talked about how all levels of being must be occupied by existing things in order for God's creation to be perfect. So hell occupies a level of being. It's good to that extent; to the extent it is evil to be in hell, that's a privation of good. Even the beings in hell experience some good: their rationality, their exercise of will (though perverted), their recognition that God and His justice have triumphed. Some Christians would also emphasize the belief that those in hell choose to be there. Calvinists like to say that the torment of those in hell glorifies God and that the righteous rejoice in it. That's all I can think of! Yay, God! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Hell could be a good place of torture, if the christian could accept torture as being good. Then they would have to accept hitler was a pretty awesome guy. Torture that God sanctions could be good without unsanctioned torture being good. On this view, it is the will of God that makes an action good, not the nature of the action itself. Hence, Hitler could remain an evil individual without it following that hell must therefore be evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylastelephant Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 Hell could be a good place of torture, if the christian could accept torture as being good. Then they would have to accept hitler was a pretty awesome guy. Torture that God sanctions could be good without unsanctioned torture being good. On this view, it is the will of God that makes an action good, not the nature of the action itself. Hence, Hitler could remain an evil individual without it following that hell must therefore be evil. Yep, I was just stirring up christians who would read that. That was not meant for you poor guys who have been horribly effected by the christian delusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Why create a special place to put evil things if he created evil himself? Why not just avoid creating evil? I'm trying to think of an analogy. Like making your favorite casserole but putting mouse droppings in it that you then have to pick out and throw away. Why not just leave the mouse droppings out to begin with? The mouse droppings have free will! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyesOpened Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Why create a special place to put evil things if he created evil himself? Why not just avoid creating evil? I'm trying to think of an analogy. Like making your favorite casserole but putting mouse droppings in it that you then have to pick out and throw away. Why not just leave the mouse droppings out to begin with? The flaws(evil) were put there to give God self importance. If there was no mouse dropping then we wouldn't need any further interactions with the Baker(God). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest biscuit Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 You all seem to be thinking of hell as a real place. Do you think that it's real? If so, do you therefore have any concerns about going there as an ex-Christian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylastelephant Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 Look I can always open up a new thread, I've got nicer questions. Or I could try and answer my own paradox. Well if god is good, then hell would be good, and hell is as good as heaven, then hell and heaven is the same place, which would mean that it is a place of gods love, which would mean evil people will suffer from gods love because their evil, and good people will have joy because of gods love. Talk about serious mental gymnastics, sheeeesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mylastelephant Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 You all seem to be thinking of hell as a real place. Do you think that it's real? If so, do you therefore have any concerns about going there as an ex-Christian?I don't think the classical fairy tale of hell is real, I understand a better principle for managing corrupted people that I still call hell. But that's only because I got no other sticky note for my concept, but that'll change soon enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 You all seem to be thinking of hell as a real place. Do you think that it's real? If so, do you therefore have any concerns about going there as an ex-Christian? To answer your questions: no and no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyesOpened Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 You all seem to be thinking of hell as a real place. Do you think that it's real? If so, do you therefore have any concerns about going there as an ex-Christian? No biscuit. We (or at least I) am entertaining the Hell concept for the OP. I don't have any proof that Hell exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 You all seem to be thinking of hell as a real place. Do you think that it's real? If so, do you therefore have any concerns about going there as an ex-Christian? No to both questions. But I can entertain the notion for the sake of argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I guess there aren't any christians here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I believe the scriptures teach that hell is an eternal state of separation between God the angels and humans who have chosen to reject him. God allowed free will, which is good, but hell is the result of the abuse of free will. God did not create hell; but he allowed for its possibility. It does seem to follow that if God created all things, and evil is a thing, then God created evil. I do not believe that is true. Evil is not a created thing. You can't see it, touch, smell or hear it. It does not consist of matter or energy. God is however the final authority over everything. When wars and evil acts committed, then God has allowed that to happen, and therefore controls evil. God does not initiate any type of evil act. If you say that's a load of crock, then what would be your alternative? Do we want God to constantly intervene in our personal choices. A god like that would be a tyrant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 So when the Bible says God is everywhere and Jesus made everything the Bible is wrong. I'm glad Ironhorse took the time to teach us about the Bible being wrong. If you say that's a load of crock, then what would be your alternative? The idea that "God is imaginary" makes perfect sense and has no contradictions. A god like that would be a tyrant. You have not been paying attention. Jesus is a tyrant. You can accept him or burn in hell forever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I believe the scriptures teach that hell is an eternal state of separation between God the angels and humans who have chosen to reject him. God allowed free will, which is good, but hell is the result of the abuse of free will. God did not create hell; but he allowed for its possibility. It does seem to follow that if God created all things, and evil is a thing, then God created evil. I do not believe that is true. Evil is not a created thing. You can't see it, touch, smell or hear it. It does not consist of matter or energy. God is however the final authority over everything. When wars and evil acts committed, then God has allowed that to happen, and therefore controls evil. God does not initiate any type of evil act. If you say that's a load of crock, then what would be your alternative? Do we want God to constantly intervene in our personal choices. A god like that would be a tyrant. Ironhorse, do you believe that Hell is an actual place where people go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Yes. Whether it is an actual place, a state of spiritual realm, or non-existence, I can't say. It is part of scriptures and is described with an array of figurative language and dire warnings of its finality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts