duderonomy Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Yes. Whether it is an actual place, a state of spiritual realm, or non-existence, I can't say. It is part of scriptures and is described with an array of figurative language and dire warnings of its finality. Well, it can't be non-existence. There is weeping and gnashing of teeth there, and in Revelation Biblegod throws Hell into the lake of fire. You can't toss something that doesn't exist into a lake, wouldn't you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 By non-existence, I meant the final destination of the spirit (soul). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Ironhorse, I'm afraid I'm going to need Bible to back your last post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I believe the scriptures teach that hell is an eternal state of separation between God the angels and humans who have chosen to reject him. I could live like that. I live like that now. God allowed free will, which is good, but hell is the result of the abuse of free will. God did not create hell; but he allowed for its possibility. Matthew 25:41 sorta indicates that God created hell. It does seem to follow that if God created all things, and evil is a thing, then God created evil. I do not believe that is true. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Evil is not a created thing. You can't see it, touch, smell or hear it. It does not consist of matter or energy. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. God is however the final authority over everything. When wars and evil acts committed, then God has allowed that to happen, and therefore controls evil. God does not initiate any type of evil act. Joshua 1. Evil act. If you say that's a load of crock, then what would be your alternative? I think mostly the people here enjoy challenging you to prove your god is real. Do we want God to constantly intervene in our personal choices. Do you pray every day? A god like that would be a tyrant. See Old Testament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 "...shall have their place in the lake of fire...which is the second death." ~The Book of the Revelation 21:8 Two cities in the OT were destroyed by eternal fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Another post from Ironhorse beginning "I believe" and then a string of self-contradictory opinions. Washing my hair is more important than replying to the string. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travi Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I believe the scriptures teach that hell is an eternal state of separation between God the angels and humans who have chosen to reject him. I could live like that. I live like that now. God allowed free will, which is good, but hell is the result of the abuse of free will. God did not create hell; but he allowed for its possibility. Matthew 25:41 sorta indicates that God created hell. It does seem to follow that if God created all things, and evil is a thing, then God created evil. I do not believe that is true. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Evil is not a created thing. You can't see it, touch, smell or hear it. It does not consist of matter or energy. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. God is however the final authority over everything. When wars and evil acts committed, then God has allowed that to happen, and therefore controls evil. God does not initiate any type of evil act. Joshua 1. Evil act. If you say that's a load of crock, then what would be your alternative? Do we want God to constantly intervene in our personal choices. A god like that would be a tyrant. Just quoted for effect. How much more plain does it have to be for people to accept that their savior created evil? Created the "Prince of Darkness", who is the supposed epitome of evil? But, when you cherry pick the bible, I guess that verse is never read. I know I never read it when I was ministering during service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 "...shall have their place in the lake of fire...which is the second death." ~The Book of the Revelation 21:8 Two cities in the OT were destroyed by eternal fire. So are you saying that it might be possible that Biblegod *poof*s people into non-existence and that might be a version of Hell as opposed to an actual physical place or a state of spiritual being? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOutsider Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 "...shall have their place in the lake of fire...which is the second death." ~The Book of the Revelation 21:8 Two cities in the OT were destroyed by eternal fire. Dread Cthulhu shall rise from his slumber in the great corpse-city of R'lyeh to devour the world as it turns to madness and chaos. Now, why should I believe your doomsday story and not Lovecraft's, exactly? I don't see why either one is any more credible than the other, at least Lovecraft could wright a good horror story. "The Whisperer in Darkness" actually made me a bit uneasy at the end, wasn't entirely sure I wanted to go to sleep after finishing it... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Two cities in the OT were destroyed by eternal fire. No, they were not. If it was eternal fire then we would still see the fire to this day and we would wonder why the fire doesn't go out. What actually happened was that the people living in Bronze Age Israel saw two destroyed cities so they made up a story to explain why those cities were ruined. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 "...shall have their place in the lake of fire...which is the second death." ~The Book of the Revelation 21:8 Two cities in the OT were destroyed by eternal fire. Dread Cthulhu shall rise from his slumber in the great corpse-city of R'lyeh to devour the world as it turns to madness and chaos. Now, why should I believe your doomsday story and not Lovecraft's, exactly? I don't see why either one is any more credible than the other, at least Lovecraft could wright a good horror story. "The Whisperer in Darkness" actually made me a bit uneasy at the end, wasn't entirely sure I wanted to go to sleep after finishing it... C'mon Outsider, get real. There's no way Lovecraft's stuff can be as real as the New Testament Bible and you know it. I mean, it wasn't written 1800 to 1900 or so years ago by anonymous authors, handed down only through handwritten copies of copies of copies with known passages added, and gathered into one group of books and letters by ancient religious/political leaders with an agenda. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOutsider Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 "...shall have their place in the lake of fire...which is the second death." ~The Book of the Revelation 21:8 Two cities in the OT were destroyed by eternal fire. Dread Cthulhu shall rise from his slumber in the great corpse-city of R'lyeh to devour the world as it turns to madness and chaos. Now, why should I believe your doomsday story and not Lovecraft's, exactly? I don't see why either one is any more credible than the other, at least Lovecraft could wright a good horror story. "The Whisperer in Darkness" actually made me a bit uneasy at the end, wasn't entirely sure I wanted to go to sleep after finishing it... C'mon Outsider, get real. There's no way Lovecraft's stuff can be as real as the New Testament Bible and you know it. I mean, it wasn't written 1800 to 1900 or so years ago by anonymous authors, handed down only through handwritten copies of copies of copies with known passages added, and gathered into one group of books and letters by ancient religious/political leaders with an agenda. Doh, what was I thinking? You're absolutely right, I retract my previous post. So, Jesus, I know you're reading this, so you can go ahead and remove my last post if you want now. Well, I've done my part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Jude 1:7 is one verse that describes them as being destroyed by eternal fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Jude 1:7 is one verse that describes them as being destroyed by eternal fire. It is one of the many examples where the Bible is wrong. The men who wrote the Bible were ignorant so they often guessed wrong about a great many things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Jude 1:7 is one verse that describes them as being destroyed by eternal fire. Forgetting just for a second that Lot, the righteous man offered his innocent daughters to a horny crowd banging down his door and all of the moral questions that go with that, do you think Ironhorse that there is a difference between "eternal" fire and regular everyday fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 "...shall have their place in the lake of fire...which is the second death." ~The Book of the Revelation 21:8 Two cities in the OT were destroyed by eternal fire. Dread Cthulhu shall rise from his slumber in the great corpse-city of R'lyeh to devour the world as it turns to madness and chaos. Now, why should I believe your doomsday story and not Lovecraft's, exactly? I don't see why either one is any more credible than the other, at least Lovecraft could wright a good horror story. "The Whisperer in Darkness" actually made me a bit uneasy at the end, wasn't entirely sure I wanted to go to sleep after finishing it... C'mon Outsider, get real. There's no way Lovecraft's stuff can be as real as the New Testament Bible and you know it. I mean, it wasn't written 1800 to 1900 or so years ago by anonymous authors, handed down only through handwritten copies of copies of copies with known passages added, and gathered into one group of books and letters by ancient religious/political leaders with an agenda. Doh, what was I thinking? You're absolutely right, I retract my previous post. So, Jesus, I know you're reading this, so you can go ahead and remove my last post if you want now. Well, I've done my part. Hah! Jesus isn't going to cover for you here! Only the mods of Ex-C can remove a post. They have been given the keys. Deal with it you sinner you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOutsider Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 "...shall have their place in the lake of fire...which is the second death." ~The Book of the Revelation 21:8 Two cities in the OT were destroyed by eternal fire. Dread Cthulhu shall rise from his slumber in the great corpse-city of R'lyeh to devour the world as it turns to madness and chaos. Now, why should I believe your doomsday story and not Lovecraft's, exactly? I don't see why either one is any more credible than the other, at least Lovecraft could wright a good horror story. "The Whisperer in Darkness" actually made me a bit uneasy at the end, wasn't entirely sure I wanted to go to sleep after finishing it... C'mon Outsider, get real. There's no way Lovecraft's stuff can be as real as the New Testament Bible and you know it. I mean, it wasn't written 1800 to 1900 or so years ago by anonymous authors, handed down only through handwritten copies of copies of copies with known passages added, and gathered into one group of books and letters by ancient religious/political leaders with an agenda. Doh, what was I thinking? You're absolutely right, I retract my previous post. So, Jesus, I know you're reading this, so you can go ahead and remove my last post if you want now. Well, I've done my part. Hah! Jesus isn't going to cover for you here! Only the mods of Ex-C can remove a post. They have been given the keys. Deal with it you sinner you. Nah, I trust if it's really so erroneous Jesus will wipe it off the face of the forums. He did allow the internet to be invented after all, I'm sure he can take care of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Two cities in the OT were destroyed by eternal fire. No, they were not. If it was eternal fire then we would still see the fire to this day and we would wonder why the fire doesn't go out. What actually happened was that the people living in Bronze Age Israel saw two destroyed cities so they made up a story to explain why those cities were ruined. And so it was on the third day, the eternal fire petered out... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Ironhorse, Didn't you realize that you are defending your faith in this thread? Which means that you must be banned. . . . You said so, here... http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/67937-christianity-is-perverted/page-5#entry1050782 Posted Yesterday, 07:37 PM That's a fair question duderonmy. - The accusations that I drop in and then avoid dialogue; I okay with members or guests deciding if that is true or not. - I know that if I go ballistic trying to defend myself against accusations or insults , I will be banned. - I'm gong to follow the rules of this forum. - I'm here to represent my faith. That's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Ironhorse to the rescue! Unfortunately, IH, your "answer" raises far more questions than it resolves. For example, you say that God controls evil but does not initiate evil acts. Presumably we are responsible for the initiation of evil because we "abuse" our free will. But God gave us our free will, and when He did so, he knew that we would abuse it. Presumably, He also knew that in our abuse of his gift we would initiate evil acts. Hence, by granting us free will, God has knowingly initiated evil. But I'm sure you see it differently. You also asked for an alternative to your view. I think the obvious choice is that your God does not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 disillusioned, Your answer does not answer the question about an alternative view. I understand you do not think there is a God. My question is about the view that free will is the problem and because God created us with free will, therefore God created evil. So I'm asking, if there is a God, what other alternative did God have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyesOpened Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 disillusioned, Your answer does not answer the question about an alternative view. I understand you do not think there is a God. My question is about the view that free will is the problem and because God created us with free will, therefore God created evil. So I'm asking, if there is a God, what other alternative did God have? Disillusioned did give an alternative view. IN THE MAIN BODY OF THE PARAGRAPH! Did you choose to ignore most of his post and just jump to the God doesn't exist part? I totally agree with what Disillusioned said. Makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 disillusioned, Your answer does not answer the question about an alternative view. I understand you do not think there is a God. My question is about the view that free will is the problem and because God created us with free will, therefore God created evil. So I'm asking, if there is a God, what other alternative did God have? Don't allow evil to exist at all! Who says free will has to exist? If free will exists and that means 6 billion people must be tortured in hell for all eternity then free will is not worth having. It would be much better for everyone to create happy robots. If your God exists then God is a monster for allowing evil and creating free will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
disillusioned Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 disillusioned, Your answer does not answer the question about an alternative view. I understand you do not think there is a God. My question is about the view that free will is the problem and because God created us with free will, therefore God created evil. So I'm asking, if there is a God, what other alternative did God have? Ironhorse, you presented your view, and then asked what an alternative would be if we thought your view was "a load of crock". That's all you asked for. You did not stipulate that an alternative had to incorporate the actual existence of God. Hence, I did answer your question. The question which you have now asked is entirely different, and I have no real way of answering it save to say that if your God exists, then He is God. He can do whatever he wants. He is not restricted by our petty understanding. Your posts in this thread seem to indicate that you feel God was in some sense restrained by the possibilities when he created humankind (ie, He either had to give us free will and open the door to evil, or resort to being a tyrant). I submit that a being who is bound by such petty restrictions would not be all powerful, and hence would not really be the God that you believe in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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