FreeThinkerNZ Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Philosopher and educator Peter Boghossian is referenced in this excellent article about skepticism by "SkepDoc" Dr Harriet Hall. Her article proposes a "sophisticated approach to True Believers" and this can apply equally to xianity and health quackery. https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/answering-cancer-quackery-the-sophisticated-approach-to-true-believers/ Boghossian gives five reasons why people embrace absurd propositions: They have a history of not formulating their beliefs on the basis of evidence. They formulate their beliefs on what they thought was reliable evidence but wasn’t. They have never been exposed to competing epistemologies and beliefs. They yield to social pressures. They devalue truth or are relativists. When I was a xian and a believer in health quackery, I was guilty of reasons 1 and 2. Since deconverting I have been working on my critical thinking skills. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 My reply to number 1 and 2: People who have faith in God rely on evidence they view as reliable, so it is not entirely fair to say that they hold their beliefs on lack of evidence. It would be more accurate if he said, skeptics or atheists question that evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 My reply to number 1 and 2: People who have faith in God rely on evidence they view as reliable, so it is not entirely fair to say that they hold their beliefs on lack of evidence. It would be more accurate if he said, skeptics or atheists question that evidence. Viewing a delusion as reliable does not make it reliable. So it is entirely fair to say a delusion lacks evidence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 My reply to number 1 and 2: People who have faith in God rely on evidence they view as reliable, so it is not entirely fair to say that they hold their beliefs on lack of evidence. It would be more accurate if he said, skeptics or atheists question that evidence. Could you please provide the evidence you are speaking of? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 My reply to number 1 and 2: People who have faith in God rely on evidence they view as reliable, so it is not entirely fair to say that they hold their beliefs on lack of evidence. It would be more accurate if he said, skeptics or atheists question that evidence. Could you please provide the evidence you are speaking of? And, the bible doesn't count, IH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 1, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted July 1, 2015 Some people will accept as "evidence" anything that supports their existing belief. Those who understand what evidence actually is are then charged with rejecting their evidence out of hand. They are operating in totally different arenas with totally different rules. I see little hope of successfully fighting superstition; people need to ask their own questions and find their own way out. One stumbling block regarding Christianity, their Bible specifically warns them against thinking and education, and for good reason! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I have to go with #s 1,2,3, and 4 for myself. Being raised from childhood with xian concepts being taught by trusted adults in the church, I took the bible stories as fact. Even if I was aware that certain stories didn't make sense to me, even at a young age, because I understood it was physically impossible for some of the events, my trust in those adults overrode my questions. I read a lot of fairy tales and understood those same type of impossible events (talking animals, impossible quests) to be fairy tales. I naively accepted so many crazy stories as fact because of those trusted adults! Even as I got older, I still would find I wasn't phased by some of the impossibilities in the stories. If I pretended I hadn't been raised xian, and had never heard the stories before, then I could see them clearly as myths or fables. It's weird how that gets in your head if it's from a young age, even though I had parents that were agnostic. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 My reply to number 1 and 2: People who have faith in God rely on evidence they view as reliable, so it is not entirely fair to say that they hold their beliefs on lack of evidence. It would be more accurate if he said, skeptics or atheists question that evidence. Could you please provide the evidence you are speaking of? And 10 years later... No evidence will have been presented by IH and he will probably be in a new thread, making the same unsupported assertions he always makes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Philosopher and educator Peter Boghossian is referenced in this excellent article about skepticism by "SkepDoc" Dr Harriet Hall. Her article proposes a "sophisticated approach to True Believers" and this can apply equally to xianity and health quackery. https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/answering-cancer-quackery-the-sophisticated-approach-to-true-believers/ Boghossian gives five reasons why people embrace absurd propositions: They have a history of not formulating their beliefs on the basis of evidence. They formulate their beliefs on what they thought was reliable evidence but wasn’t. They have never been exposed to competing epistemologies and beliefs. They yield to social pressures. They devalue truth or are relativists. When I was a xian and a believer in health quackery, I was guilty of reasons 1 and 2. Since deconverting I have been working on my critical thinking skills. Philosopher and educator Peter Boghossian is referenced in this excellent article about skepticism by "SkepDoc" Dr Harriet Hall. Her article proposes a "sophisticated approach to True Believers" and this can apply equally to xianity and health quackery. https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/answering-cancer-quackery-the-sophisticated-approach-to-true-believers/ Boghossian gives five reasons why people embrace absurd propositions: They have a history of not formulating their beliefs on the basis of evidence. They formulate their beliefs on what they thought was reliable evidence but wasn’t. They have never been exposed to competing epistemologies and beliefs. They yield to social pressures. They devalue truth or are relativists. When I was a xian and a believer in health quackery, I was guilty of reasons 1 and 2. Since deconverting I have been working on my critical thinking skills. #1 is true of most everyone, though. We are simply not raised to think this way. "Evidence" can be elusive and deceptive, or hard to come by. It's easier to just coast by without thinking too hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 One stumbling block regarding Christianity, their Bible specifically warns them against thinking and education, and for good reason! "and assurance about we do not see". Certainly it could be warning against what we arrogantly think we know. Why do you not think from this perspective. Why do you choose to think that what you see and experience is conclusive. What were the last words of Steve Jobs?..."oh wow"? Were you just baiting me or is this the real you. I'm going to be disappointed you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 My reply to number 1 and 2: People who have faith in God rely on evidence they view as reliable, so it is not entirely fair to say that they hold their beliefs on lack of evidence. It would be more accurate if he said, skeptics or atheists question that evidence. Here we go again. 1. Please define "evidence" for purposes of Boghossian's Points ## 1 and 2. You learned in earlier threads that an argument from incredulity, an argument from popularity, an argument from antiquity and other informal logical fallacies are not evidence. 2. Please provide examples of such evidence that you view as reliable. And, once again, remember that an argument from incredulity, an argument from popularity, an argument from antiquity and other informal logical fallacies are not evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 One stumbling block regarding Christianity, their Bible specifically warns them against thinking and education, and for good reason! "and assurance about we do not see". Certainly it could be warning against what we arrogantly think we know. Why do you not think from this perspective. Why do you choose to think that what you see and experience is conclusive. What were the last words of Steve Jobs?..."oh wow"? Were you just baiting me or is this the real you. I'm going to be disappointed you know. I'm glad you are here. We needed to hear from an expert on embracing absurd propositions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 My reply to number 1 and 2: People who have faith in God rely on evidence they view as reliable, so it is not entirely fair to say that they hold their beliefs on lack of evidence. It would be more accurate if he said, skeptics or atheists question that evidence. And what are your thoughts on #2? So far, you have yet to say anything about this. They have a history of not formulating their beliefs on the basis of evidence. They formulate their beliefs on what they thought was reliable evidence but wasn’t. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 2, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted July 2, 2015 One stumbling block regarding Christianity, their Bible specifically warns them against thinking and education, and for good reason! "and assurance about we do not see". Certainly it could be warning against what we arrogantly think we know. Why do you not think from this perspective. Why do you choose to think that what you see and experience is conclusive. What were the last words of Steve Jobs?..."oh wow"? Were you just baiting me or is this the real you. I'm going to be disappointed you know. If I'm not disappointing you then I'm not doing my job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 Two of the primary reasons I saw intelligent people convert was a combination of a felt need or personal hardship, and a friend selling Jesus as the answer to the hardship. Sometimes the hardship was overeating and a "sponsor" in Overeaters Anonymous would push Jesus as the higher power that could change everything. My own conversion around age 11 was based on a childish fear of monsters, specifically demons, after seeing an advert for The Exorcist. I had only heard of one that could defeat them, so I went to Jesus. The default respect that the church had in our society, and the nice people dressed well lent a sense of "this seems to be real" to the decision. What kept me in the fold for years was the willingness to accept any "answer" to my questions about the faith to keep it feeling real and true. I had found an enclave of people that liked me and talked to me, and even pretty girls were hugging me for the first time in my young life. I wanted it to keep on going and that kept me from questioning too much. There were times I found atheist writings that made complete sense, and I felt like I had no answer at all. Then a friend would say something like, "But you know what you've already experienced. Wasn't that real?" And so I would shelve the issue and keep on believing. I think that is true for most believers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConscientiousObjector Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Excellent article, FTNZ! I liked it so much that I bookmarked it for future reference. 2 and 4 were my major stumbling blocks. I've had doubts about religion all my life, but my own self-doubt and low self-esteem prevented me from analyzing Christianity thoroughly. I'm glad I finally began questioning enough to really research conflicting opinions on the matter. I'm just a lowly newbie on this site, but may I suggest that this topic should be pinned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 One stumbling block regarding Christianity, their Bible specifically warns them against thinking and education, and for good reason! "and assurance about we do not see". Certainly it could be warning against what we arrogantly think we know. Why do you not think from this perspective. Why do you choose to think that what you see and experience is conclusive. What were the last words of Steve Jobs?..."oh wow"? Were you just baiting me or is this the real you. I'm going to be disappointed you know. Jesus...is inconclusive....so Christians will arrogantly defend him at all costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 My reply to number 1 and 2: People who have faith in God rely on evidence they view as reliable, so it is not entirely fair to say that they hold their beliefs on lack of evidence. It would be more accurate if he said, skeptics or atheists question that evidence. Evidence wasnt part of the equation in my becoming a Christian. It was more of a subtle pressure to conform, I think. I felt I should become one since the wife I married and her kids were all Christian. From that point I would now and then occasionally try to apply some sort of apologetic baloney to bolster my 'rightness' or quote scripture. After another emotional decision to say goodbye to Jesus because I was tired of the guilt (for being human) I came here and discovered why Christianity was baloney from a logical reasoned perspective. I dont believe altar calls or any other Christian recruiting effort really focuses on taking a look at the evidence using logic or reason. It's based on plucking the heart strings of individuals. While a Pentecostal, the existence of Jesus and correctness of the bible was just assumed. Independent thought was not encouraged in church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 My reply to number 1 and 2: People who have faith in God rely on evidence they view as reliable, so it is not entirely fair to say that they hold their beliefs on lack of evidence. It would be more accurate if he said, skeptics or atheists question that evidence. Here we go again. 1. Please define "evidence" for purposes of Boghossian's Points ## 1 and 2. You learned in earlier threads that an argument from incredulity, an argument from popularity, an argument from antiquity and other informal logical fallacies are not evidence. 2. Please provide examples of such evidence that you view as reliable. And, once again, remember that an argument from incredulity, an argument from popularity, an argument from antiquity and other informal logical fallacies are not evidence. No, Sdelsolray! Ironhorse has not learned this - because he refuses to do so. He also refuses to do anything that puts his faith in jeopardy - like your request to define his terms. He can trump any of our attempts to bring him to the table of reasoned and rational debate by simply writing..."I disagree" ...thus killing any dialog with him, stone dead. He's done it before and when cornered, he'll do it again. . . . As Fweethawt observed some weeks back... WASH. RINSE. REPEAT. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justus Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 One stumbling block regarding Christianity, their Bible specifically warns them against thinking and education, and for good reason! That has to be without question one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. So what is the good reason that teaching people how to read and write the written spoken word is against thinking and education? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 One stumbling block regarding Christianity, their Bible specifically warns them against thinking and education, and for good reason! That has to be without question one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. So what is the good reason that teaching people how to read and write the written spoken word is against thinking and education? Here is the full content of Florduh's post. Some people will accept as "evidence" anything that supports their existing belief. Those who understand what evidence actually is are then charged with rejecting their evidence out of hand. They are operating in totally different arenas with totally different rules. I see little hope of successfully fighting superstition; people need to ask their own questions and find their own way out. One stumbling block regarding Christianity, their Bible specifically warns them against thinking and education, and for good reason! Taking his comments out of their proper context, Justus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 One stumbling block regarding Christianity, their Bible specifically warns them against thinking and education, and for good reason! That has to be without question one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. So what is the good reason that teaching people how to read and write the written spoken word is against thinking and education? Because education leads to leaving the faith. And when Christians leave the faith the Christian leaders have less income. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 "One stumbling block regarding Christianity, their Bible specifically warns them against thinking and education, and for good reason!" ~ florduh That's news to me. Where do the scriptures warn against thinking or education? I do agree that in church history there has been those who opposed free thinking and education. This censorship still occurs in certain denominations and sects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 "One stumbling block regarding Christianity, their Bible specifically warns them against thinking and education, and for good reason!" ~ florduh That's news to me. Where do the scriptures warn against thinking or education? I do agree that in church history there has been those who opposed free thinking and education. This censorship still occurs in certain denominations and sects. Proverbs 3:5New International Version (NIV) 5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 27, 2015 Share Posted July 27, 2015 ...fish in a barrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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