Insightful Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Hi everyone, A young guy (about 21 years old) from my old church posted the following on Facebook: "I am officially accepted to Master's Seminary, one of the last few seminaries in the world that actually hold to the complete inerrancy of the scripture (2 Tim. 3:16). I am excited to learn more about the book that I hold so dear. While I am not an expert in the entire Bible, I do believe that it is God's word and without error.In today's world, the Bible is under much scrutiny about it's truthfulness. Many claim that there are many contradictions contained in the word, I have challenged a few people in person to give me some and every time they do they are weak examples that have easy answers.This is not fair to them since they don't know the Bible and I do and I am calling them out on the spot. Now, with the power of the internet, I am asking all of you for the contradictions that make you doubt the validity of the Bible. This means all areas where the Bible says something different from what it said before, where it contradicts science, where it gives some weird command that we are "supposed" to follow.Let me preface this by once again saying that I am not all knowing, but the Bible IS infallible.So whether you are an atheist, a christian who believes in a fallible Bible, or a christian who loves the Bible but has some doubts, I am calling on you.If you feel uncomfortable with this, Private Message me. Good luck, and God speed." I feel sad that he is already so arrogant about his perspective - issuing such a cocky-sounding challenge. At the same time, I'm also sad to see a young, passionate, courageous mind get sucked down a closed-minded path. I want to respond, but I'm curious to know what you all think. Is there any value in even trying to talk to this guy? Or is this just blustering with no intention of humbly considering his opponents' perspectives? I wonder why he is asking. Maybe he is having his own doubts before he jumps in? That's my sense... I'd love everyone's thoughts. I used to be just like he is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qadeshet Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Sounds like he's already drunk the Koolaid. You might as well tilt at windmills. It will give you a headache. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I think you should invite him to issue that challenge in one of the debate forums here. Imagine if you can put enough doubt in his mind, so that he decides against attending the seminary. You will have made a big difference in his life. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyesOpened Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Hi everyone, A young guy (about 21 years old) from my old church posted the following on Facebook: "I am officially accepted to Master's Seminary, one of the last few seminaries in the world that actually hold to the complete inerrancy of the scripture (2 Tim. 3:16). I am excited to learn more about the book that I hold so dear. While I am not an expert in the entire Bible, I do believe that it is God's word and without error. In today's world, the Bible is under much scrutiny about it's truthfulness. Many claim that there are many contradictions contained in the word, I have challenged a few people in person to give me some and every time they do they are weak examples that have easy answers. This is not fair to them since they don't know the Bible and I do and I am calling them out on the spot. Now, with the power of the internet, I am asking all of you for the contradictions that make you doubt the validity of the Bible. This means all areas where the Bible says something different from what it said before, where it contradicts science, where it gives some weird command that we are "supposed" to follow. Let me preface this by once again saying that I am not all knowing, but the Bible IS infallible. So whether you are an atheist, a christian who believes in a fallible Bible, or a christian who loves the Bible but has some doubts, I am calling on you. If you feel uncomfortable with this, Private Message me. Good luck, and God speed." I feel sad that he is already so arrogant about his perspective - issuing such a cocky-sounding challenge. At the same time, I'm also sad to see a young, passionate, courageous mind get sucked down a closed-minded path. I want to respond, but I'm curious to know what you all think. Is there any value in even trying to talk to this guy? Or is this just blustering with no intention of humbly considering his opponents' perspectives? I wonder why he is asking. Maybe he is having his own doubts before he jumps in? That's my sense... I'd love everyone's thoughts. I used to be just like he is... You will be in for a long discusion. Bring up the part in the bible when God was defeated by iron chariots. That part still gets me. Or maybe when Jacob was physically grappling with God and God couldnt break his hold. lol But like qadeshet said, might be a lost cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sylensikeelyoo Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Invite him here. If he wants to truly put his ideals to the test, and truly wants to know what the errors are in his "infallible" bible, we can all be the ones to help you help him. Many of us in this forum have been to Seminary already and the reason for our deconversion is discovering all the fucking errors! So yeah. If he has the balls to do so, send him our way. Let us help you school this dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I agree. Get him here. However, seminary itself may be enough to get him deconverted as it has others. I suspect, though, that despite his confidence in its inerrancy, he is probably woefully unaware of all the ridiculous stories and inconsistencies in it. I know that even now as an ex-believer I am surprised by some of the obscure stories people bring up on here that I didn't even know! Maybe we can save him years of delusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted July 3, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted July 3, 2015 We need to talk with this guy. Bring him on down. We are also inerrant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 His brain is so closed-minded that he is a robot. If anybody engages him he will simply do what Ironhorse does. You are welcome to try if you would enjoy that sort of thing happening of Facebook. If he comes to the Lion's Den I would be happy to send him hiding deep in denial. But there is no reaching people like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOutsider Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 http://bibviz.com/ Yeah, I'd love to see how he handles that bit of minor inconvenience... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraphicsGuy Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 I think you should invite him to issue that challenge in one of the debate forums here. Imagine if you can put enough doubt in his mind, so that he decides against attending the seminary. You will have made a big difference in his life. Oooohhhh...yessss...the Lions is hungry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Hi everyone, A young guy (about 21 years old) from my old church posted the following on Facebook: "I am officially accepted to Master's Seminary, one of the last few seminaries in the world that actually hold to the complete inerrancy of the scripture (2 Tim. 3:16). I am excited to learn more about the book that I hold so dear. While I am not an expert in the entire Bible, I do believe that it is God's word and without error. In today's world, the Bible is under much scrutiny about it's truthfulness. Many claim that there are many contradictions contained in the word, I have challenged a few people in person to give me some and every time they do they are weak examples that have easy answers. This is not fair to them since they don't know the Bible and I do and I am calling them out on the spot. Now, with the power of the internet, I am asking all of you for the contradictions that make you doubt the validity of the Bible. This means all areas where the Bible says something different from what it said before, where it contradicts science, where it gives some weird command that we are "supposed" to follow. Let me preface this by once again saying that I am not all knowing, but the Bible IS infallible. So whether you are an atheist, a christian who believes in a fallible Bible, or a christian who loves the Bible but has some doubts, I am calling on you. If you feel uncomfortable with this, Private Message me. Good luck, and God speed." I feel sad that he is already so arrogant about his perspective - issuing such a cocky-sounding challenge. At the same time, I'm also sad to see a young, passionate, courageous mind get sucked down a closed-minded path. I want to respond, but I'm curious to know what you all think. Is there any value in even trying to talk to this guy? Or is this just blustering with no intention of humbly considering his opponents' perspectives? I wonder why he is asking. Maybe he is having his own doubts before he jumps in? That's my sense... I'd love everyone's thoughts. I used to be just like he is... Cocky was my first thought as well. Say something like, "I know more than Jesus" just to piss him off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Sounds like he's already drunk the Koolaid. You might as well tilt at windmills. It will give you a headache. That's right. If the bible said 2+2 =17 and you drank the koolaid then "Hallelujah! 2+2 = 17! Praise Gawwwwd" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 When his bible can mean whatever he decides he wants it to mean, there's no debate. No learning will occur. He's already said it's infallible. Debate is pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Hi everyone, A young guy (about 21 years old) from my old church posted the following on Facebook: "I am officially accepted to Master's Seminary, one of the last few seminaries in the world that actually hold to the complete inerrancy of the scripture (2 Tim. 3:16). I am excited to learn more about the book that I hold so dear. While I am not an expert in the entire Bible, I do believe that it is God's word and without error. In today's world, the Bible is under much scrutiny about it's truthfulness. Many claim that there are many contradictions contained in the word, I have challenged a few people in person to give me some and every time they do they are weak examples that have easy answers. This is not fair to them since they don't know the Bible and I do and I am calling them out on the spot. Now, with the power of the internet, I am asking all of you for the contradictions that make you doubt the validity of the Bible. This means all areas where the Bible says something different from what it said before, where it contradicts science, where it gives some weird command that we are "supposed" to follow. Let me preface this by once again saying that I am not all knowing, but the Bible IS infallible. So whether you are an atheist, a christian who believes in a fallible Bible, or a christian who loves the Bible but has some doubts, I am calling on you. If you feel uncomfortable with this, Private Message me. Good luck, and God speed." I feel sad that he is already so arrogant about his perspective - issuing such a cocky-sounding challenge. At the same time, I'm also sad to see a young, passionate, courageous mind get sucked down a closed-minded path. I want to respond, but I'm curious to know what you all think. Is there any value in even trying to talk to this guy? Or is this just blustering with no intention of humbly considering his opponents' perspectives? I wonder why he is asking. Maybe he is having his own doubts before he jumps in? That's my sense... I'd love everyone's thoughts. I used to be just like he is... All you'll get from him is lessons from Creative Apologetics 101. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 I know I haven't been on here long and many of you have had ugly battles with Ironhorse and others, but as a fairly newly deconverted person, it saddens me that so many of you are so hostile to someone like that. As young and inexperienced as he is, I would think that your running rings around him with the illogic of his beliefs would help him to at least think a bit more about his assumptions and maybe reexamine some of it. I've noticed that Ironhorse throws things out and then never responds to challenges. He clearly doesn't seem to care to really think about this stuff. But, even though he's arrogant, this kid sounds like he really wants genuine dialogue. Maybe I'm missing something, but just writing him off isn't even giving him a chance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilith666 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 I get why some people are saying that debate is pointless. I have had many debates that went nowhere. But as arrogant as he sounds, that post could be a lot of talk: as much as he thinks he believes the bible, it doesn't mean he knows it as well as he claims. Why not give it a shot? He's even inviting you; it's not as if you're forcing yourself on someone who has said he doesn't want to listen, which would be hopeless. And he's still young, which means even more hope for him. I don't see why we should give someone up for lost when he is asking for challenges. He may sound cocky, and giving up on him would certainly be easier, but that doesn't mean we can't try. midniterider: How many of us sincerely believed the bible was infallible and then learned otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Just send him Bart Ehrman's book Misquoting Jesus. Bart started out to prove the bible inerrant and is no longer a Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sylensikeelyoo Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 I know I haven't been on here long and many of you have had ugly battles with Ironhorse and others, but as a fairly newly deconverted person, it saddens me that so many of you are so hostile to someone like that. As young and inexperienced as he is, I would think that your running rings around him with the illogic of his beliefs would help him to at least think a bit more about his assumptions and maybe reexamine some of it. I've noticed that Ironhorse throws things out and then never responds to challenges. He clearly doesn't seem to care to really think about this stuff. But, even though he's arrogant, this kid sounds like he really wants genuine dialogue. Maybe I'm missing something, but just writing him off isn't even giving him a chance. Many of us may seem hostile toward Ironhorse, Justus, and End3 because all they wanna do is talk at us and not talk to us. The only Christian on here that I actually enjoy discussing things with is A1. He seems to be really trying to keep and open mind and seems to listen and not be a prick. All the others, I facepalm when I see them on a thread. But I actually enjoy discussions with Christians and Muslims and Pagans. Mostly Christians because I know more about their religion than they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 I know I haven't been on here long and many of you have had ugly battles with Ironhorse and others, but as a fairly newly deconverted person, it saddens me that so many of you are so hostile to someone like that. As young and inexperienced as he is, I would think that your running rings around him with the illogic of his beliefs would help him to at least think a bit more about his assumptions and maybe reexamine some of it. I've noticed that Ironhorse throws things out and then never responds to challenges. He clearly doesn't seem to care to really think about this stuff. But, even though he's arrogant, this kid sounds like he really wants genuine dialogue. Maybe I'm missing something, but just writing him off isn't even giving him a chance. Oh no. You have not been around here long enough to see us be hostile to the bad kind of Christian. We tease Ironhorse slightly because he is slightly annoying. But if you want to see us being hostile you need to go through the old posts and read up on JayL, BarnicleBen or any of the Christians who have been banned for abusive behavior. They earned that hostility by defending genocide or hatred for women. Our current crop of Christians are nice people. They were brainwashed into a cult and perhaps secretly they would like to win us over to the cult as well but you have not seen hostility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christar Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Hi everyone, A young guy (about 21 years old) from my old church posted the following on Facebook: "I am officially accepted to Master's Seminary, one of the last few seminaries in the world that actually hold to the complete inerrancy of the scripture (2 Tim. 3:16). I am excited to learn more about the book that I hold so dear. While I am not an expert in the entire Bible, I do believe that it is God's word and without error. In today's world, the Bible is under much scrutiny about it's truthfulness. Many claim that there are many contradictions contained in the word, I have challenged a few people in person to give me some and every time they do they are weak examples that have easy answers. This is not fair to them since they don't know the Bible and I do and I am calling them out on the spot. Now, with the power of the internet, I am asking all of you for the contradictions that make you doubt the validity of the Bible. This means all areas where the Bible says something different from what it said before, where it contradicts science, where it gives some weird command that we are "supposed" to follow. Let me preface this by once again saying that I am not all knowing, but the Bible IS infallible. So whether you are an atheist, a christian who believes in a fallible Bible, or a christian who loves the Bible but has some doubts, I am calling on you. If you feel uncomfortable with this, Private Message me. Good luck, and God speed." I feel sad that he is already so arrogant about his perspective - issuing such a cocky-sounding challenge. At the same time, I'm also sad to see a young, passionate, courageous mind get sucked down a closed-minded path. I want to respond, but I'm curious to know what you all think. Is there any value in even trying to talk to this guy? Or is this just blustering with no intention of humbly considering his opponents' perspectives? I wonder why he is asking. Maybe he is having his own doubts before he jumps in? That's my sense... I'd love everyone's thoughts. I used to be just like he is... The deep end is only looks scary until you jump in, then after you're in you feel weird for a while until you get used to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 When I was a believer, I would also ask people for examples of contradictions, and most could not provide any. "The Bible is full of contradictions" was a generic statement on the part of many unbelievers that would bring nods of approval from others who also didn't really know of any contradictions, but didn't like the Bible. Now that I'm on the outside, I have become well acquainted with many actual contradictions, and the apologist defenses for them. Apologists often feel compelled to provide a gymnastic answer to something obvious (or sidestep the obvious and state that it isn't obvious), but they *have* to make it continue to be true in their own minds. I did the same thing when I believed, because I had a vested interest in it being true (not to mention I didn't want to admit I'd made a huge mistake in believing in this complex invisible world of faith). I say engage the guy honestly in dialogue and see what happens. He may do like most believers and cling to any alleged explanation, or it may stick in his craw and become an irritation that will only manifest after a lot of time. I shelved a lot of questions as a believer, and with the right conditions then all came tumbling down and I started asking questions again with serious intent on finding facts. My faith didn't last long when I started looking for reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I understand being hostile to someone who has proven themselves unworthy of respect. It's the fact that so many of you were ready to write this kid off without finding out if he is like the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I understand being hostile to someone who has proven themselves unworthy of respect. It's the fact that so many of you were ready to write this kid off without finding out if he is like the others. Uh no, we figured out what Ironhorse is like the day he started spamming us with his Sunday Dispatch. Have you read the Sunday Dispatch thread? Ironhorse decided that he would dictate to the moderators what the rules would be around here. And our moderators were merciful enough to not ban him. Think he would get away with that anywhere else? A few of us started making fun of his name. But he was acting like a stubborn jacka$$. And when that thread was locked he still didn't get the message so he started Sunday Dispatch 2. Ironhorse is the perfect example of what is wrong with Christianity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I understand being hostile to someone who has proven themselves unworthy of respect. It's the fact that so many of you were ready to write this kid off without finding out if he is like the others. I agree with you. I hope that person will start a debate here (maybe in a moderated forum, so the volume of responses is easier for him to digest?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daffodil Posted July 5, 2015 Share Posted July 5, 2015 I understand being hostile to someone who has proven themselves unworthy of respect. It's the fact that so many of you were ready to write this kid off without finding out if he is like the others. Uh no, we figured out what Ironhorse is like the day he started spamming us with his Sunday Dispatch. Have you read the Sunday Dispatch thread? Ironhorse decided that he would dictate to the moderators what the rules would be around here. And our moderators were merciful enough to not ban him. Think he would get away with that anywhere else? A few of us started making fun of his name. But he was acting like a stubborn jacka$$. And when that thread was locked he still didn't get the message so he started Sunday Dispatch 2. Ironhorse is the perfect example of what is wrong with Christianity. I was talking about the kid in the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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