Preparing To Come Out - Looking For Assistance

[00LukeMan]

Hello all. I have been an Ex-Christian for over a year now and it is time I spoke up about it.

I have already talked with my two closest friends and my brother, but now I am writing a letter to explain things to the rest of my family.

Would you be willing to help me? This is not a simple task for me, since I wish to be as clear as possible and actually provide some explanation beyond "I am not convinced."

 

The outline I have so far is this:

-Beginning to Doubt (the story of this last year and how my faith began to fall away)

-Why I do not think the Bible is God's word

   -Errors

      -Internal Contradictions

      -Historical Errors (things like authorship and historicity)

   -Prophecy (unfulfilled, probably deal with other supernatural claims like the power of prayer)

   -Morals (why the Bible is not a good moral standard)

(My point is that I thought the Bible was God's word because I thought it was innerant, historically reliable and supremely moral, but this has not proven to be the case. Secondly, but no less importantly, even if these errors can be explained away as "not really errors" God is still incompetent when it comes to getting his message across. If there were a god and that god wanted all of humanity to know about that god's existence, identity, character and will, then all of humanity would know without any reasonable doubt because a god isn't incompetent.)

-Well what about these reasons for believing? (Common apologetics and why they do not convince me)

-Well what about my personal experience? (Reliable evidence, the scientific method and problems with supernatural causation)

-Well what do you believe then? (Critical thinking, science, naturalism, humanism and morality. Talk meaning and purpose and my history with depression, nihilism and contemplated suicide; in other words, why I am happy now and moving forward.)

 

This outline is based on coming out to my friends and my brother (separate instances which allowed me to better develop it each time) and the questions they've asked. It is aimed specifically at my family who are very fundamentalist, literalist/innerantist, science-denying, alternative medicine-using types of Christians as I once was.

 

My request is this: Can you help by providing good examples of internal contradictions, historical errors and moral errors?

 

I can do this myself if necessary, I have lots of resources including Bibviz's list of potential contradictions, the Skeptic's Annotated Bible, Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason (which I am very much looking forward to digging into), and Citsonga's Letter to My Christian Parents which has been a great help in terms of organizing my scattered thoughts. But I want to do this right.

As Matt Dillahunty pointed out in a recent Atheist Debates video, it is easy to pick something obvious and often repeated without research only to find that it is not a contradiction and just makes me look foolish.

I can and will look through these all myself, but could you give me some particularly good examples of biblical problems which I might focus on?

 

I am twenty-two hundred words in and would like to both get this of my chest soon yet still do it justice. Any help would be appreciated.

[mymistake]

Sounds like you are trying to write a book.  Maybe you would enjoy writing that book but I doubt any of

 

the Christians you have in mind would read all of it.  Go ahead and write it all if doing so will benefit you

 

but you might want to put together a TL;DR version for your relatives.  If any of them ask for more info

 

then you can offer them the book.

 

 

 

As for contradictions there are hundreds so where to begin?  The Christians are not even going to listen.

 

They will just tune you out with "I believe . . . " or "God is mysterious . . . " or "It's all God's plan" or "That

 

was the Old Testament".  Want to go for a big one?  Jesus isn't God except in the Gospel of John.  

 

Everywhere else the authors talk about Jesus and God.  Jesus and God are clearly separate characters.  

 

But the Christians won't see this as a contradiction between John and the rest of the New Testament.  It

 

only means that God choose to unveil different aspects using different authors.

 

 

 

Anyway, your coming out should be about you so ultimately do whatever is best for you.

[Guest sylensikeelyoo]

I dunno. When I feel like I'm ready, I'ma be all like, yo, Facebook I'm an atheist. Yeah all y'all used to know me when I was a Christian. Now I know its all bullshit. Fucking deal with it. That's pretty much how I chose to come out to my close friends and my hubby. They've been super supportive though. I fucking love them. But yeah do what you do sweetie. We all come out in different ways. Im not even touching it right now. Those that truly matter to me know and that's all that's important to me for now. Sounds like a good outline. Go for it.

[00LukeMan]

sykensikeelyoo - For those who are less important to me, I don't really care if they find out or how. But this is for my close family (parents, grandparents) with whom I am in frequent contact, I feel they deserve a more personal explanation.

 

mymistake - I have debated whether or not to write this all out, but the conversations with my friends and brother took hours which I would rather not risk on an internet connection or pay for in phone minutes. Further, they will have lots of questions which I would like to address up front as I properly tell my story. I know how they think, if I say that the Bible has contradictions they will want examples, so I would like to have some ready. Perhaps when I've finished writing it, I can just use it as a draft for a shorter conversation, but I want to write it either way. They will read it, though it may not get through to them, at least I won't seem to be doing this for no reason.

[Travi]

Religion does weird things to people, and don't be surprised if some of your family all of a sudden cannot associate with you anymore due to it. When I came out as an atheist to my mother, the entire family knew the same day, and several of them said I am no longer welcome in their houses until I put God back in my life.

You can explain it on a personal level, but just don't expect them to lay down and say: "Alright, that's your choice." They may do this, and if so, then great. If they decide that their love for you is greater than their faith, then all the better. Just don't be dismayed if some of them suddenly look at you in a different light. That's really the only advice I can give. Just steel your mind for potentially being put off by the family that says they love you unconditionally, only to find out the condition was that you were a God fearing person.
 

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I wouldn't write any more than one page to send to them.  They are not going to have open minds.  If they do have questions, they could ask them subsequently.  Sounds like you will be ready with your answers.  I'm just very pessimistic about their ability to understand why you don't believe.  They don't "deserve" an in depth explanation, and you're not obligated to give one.  Try to think about what would best help keep the peace, while not hiding who you are now.  Does a lengthy document help with that goal?

[00LukeMan]

A lengthy document at least helps me to organize my thoughts and have responses ready, so I think it is valuable and something I would like to keep working on. I do really feel that they deserve some sort of explanation beyond "hey, you know that stuff you've devoted your lives to and worked so hard to raise us in? Id on't buy any of it anymore. Bye!" However, you may be right regarding the shorter explanation being the preferable one.

 

One thing that should be established is that I am 21, employed part time while attending university, and currently living in the basement kindly offered by my grandparents. I know my family, they have always said that they will love me and take care of me no matter what, and I believe them. My brother reacted with surprising calm when I explained things (then again, perhaps not so surprising. He is perhaps the most level-headed person I know.) It is not in their nature to react harmfully, but if they did I could go to other friends for a place to stay, paying rent and getting a second part-time job if necessary. Hell, I could even fast track my plans and skip university to enlist (which is the plan after I graduate anyway) if everything went wrong.

[mymistake]

 

mymistake - I have debated whether or not to write this all out, but the conversations with my friends and brother took hours which I would rather not risk on an internet connection or pay for in phone minutes. Further, they will have lots of questions which I would like to address up front as I properly tell my story. I know how they think, if I say that the Bible has contradictions they will want examples, so I would like to have some ready. Perhaps when I've finished writing it, I can just use it as a draft for a shorter conversation, but I want to write it either way. They will read it, though it may not get through to them, at least I won't seem to be doing this for no reason.

 

Okay, fair enough.  I would recommend that you start with a very short summary and then after you have

 

spilled the big news you launch into the essay.  What kind of contradictions would they find most persuasive?

 

There are evil laws written in the Old Testament.  The obvious apologetics is "Jesus completed the law" but 

 

you can demand to know why would a God of Justice create those barbaric laws in the first place?  A great

 

one is the fact that there is no way to reconcile the four different gospel accounts of the crucifixion and

 

resurrection.  You can't write all the events in order and include everything in the four gospels without leaving

 

anything out.  It just isn't possible.  Another great one is the conflicting messages on what one must do in

 

order to be saved.  SAB has a good article on that one.  Almost every book in the Bible gives a different

 

answer and salvation is suppose to be the core purpose for the Bible itself.

[FreeThinkerNZ]

I'm glad you have some other options if it all turns pear-shaped.  I guess I'm jaded after reading so many tragic stories of abusive parents on here.  Good luck.

[wyson]

What denomination are you?

 

Unless they are evangelicals or raging fundies, I bet they will dismiss it as just a phase and not even want to discuss it.

 

Its great to read all that stuff for yourself. A Christian won't give a damn. Would you care if they tried to refute your arguments using arguments made by Christian apologists? You attitude would be, what?

 

So don't push it. You are still living under their financial assistance. Come out in passing. Like if they say, shall we go to Church, just say, I don't want to go. Don't engage in discussion unless they invite it. Even then, keep answers brief and to the point. If they dismiss it as a phase, then let them and keep schtum.

 

Wait until you have graduated, have your own job, own place if you want to be more militant. Imagine if someone sat there and derided your life choices and beliefs in detail. There could be the potential for backlash right? You would at least think the guy/gal deriding you was a dick. Be yourself, but don't be a dick.

[qadeshet]

"Guess what, I'm no longer a Christian. The Bible is just a collection of myths and fables written by Bronze Age barbarians, not the words of some 'god'. Try reading it for yourself."

 

Now, when I'm asked why I'm no longer a Christian, I can just refer people to a great video interview by a former Baptist Pastor, now an Atheist, Drew Belkius. He says it better than me. If you get a chance, stop by his blog and say "Hi".

 

Video Interview: A Seminary Project on Atheism

[GraphicsGuy]

"Dear Parents/Grandparents/Other,

 

I have surmised that living the Christian way is not a healthy lifestyle for me. For that reason I have chosen to leave it and to follow my own path.

 

I am sorry if you cannot handle this decision, but it is MY decision and I need to do what is best for me.

 

You may not agree with me and that is okay. We are family and we don't have to agree in order to love and support one another.

 

I will always be here for you. Please grant me the respect to grow into the person I need to be."

[00LukeMan]

mymistake - The gospel accounts and central issues like Jesus' divinity and salvation will be my focus since they are at the heart of the matter, as well as other things like Judas' death which cannot be reconciled without becoming silly.

I am well aware of the nastiness of the Old Testament in general, I was just looking for a few choice examples that would stand out more than the rest (as if drowning the world weren't enough already). The cheerful attitude towards slavery and women as property come to mind.

For contradictions, things which cannot be easily dismissed. "Who cares if one says 3000 and another says 30000, it's just numbers" vs. "Jesus' family left Bethlehem for Nazareth/Egypt" where it can't be both.

 

wyson - I am no denomination; I'm an atheist and a naturalist. They are evangelical, fundamentalists. I do not intend to deride their life choices. I am very grateful for most of how they raised me. However, I don't think they've really looked into any of this. They read their Bibles, but just certain parts as devotions, not really examining the whole thing criticaly. I'm not saying to them "you've done all the wrong things," I'm saying "hey guys, I think we've made a mistake."

 

qadeshet - While that approach is the exact opposite of what I want to do, I do thank you for the link. I very much enjoyed watching his interview, he was calm, compassionate and well-spoken. I look forward to checking out his stuff in the future.

 

Let me make this clear everyone, I do want to come out to my family. I want to do it fairly soon. I want to offer at least a basic explanation. I want to continue to include them in my life.

I cannot come out in passing or through few flippant sentences. I want to explain things to them, though it may not be necessary to go into great detail all at once, so that they know I am not doing this lightly or without justification.

Talking on here and with my brother, I have come to the decision that I want to write this paper for my own use, to prepare and organize my thoughts, and I will then attempt to speak with my family on skype in perhaps a more abridged form. If there are too many technical issues, then I can always send them the full paper via email.

This is what I want to do, what I am looking for is advice on how I might do it well. I am researching and compiling on my own, I would just like it if people could suggest particularly good examples that I might look into which might not have occured to me already.

[qadeshet]

2 Kings Chapter 2 v 22

 

God sends 2 she-bears to tear apart 42 young children for laughing at an old man's bald head. This is a story never told in church.

 

Contradictions in the Bible

 

There are 2 free books by Joseph Wheless that you might find helpfull.

 

Is It God's Word?

Forgery in Christianity

[wyson]

mymistake - The gospel accounts and central issues like Jesus' divinity and salvation will be my focus since they are at the heart of the matter, as well as other things like Judas' death which cannot be reconciled without becoming silly.

I am well aware of the nastiness of the Old Testament in general, I was just looking for a few choice examples that would stand out more than the rest (as if drowning the world weren't enough already). The cheerful attitude towards slavery and women as property come to mind.

For contradictions, things which cannot be easily dismissed. "Who cares if one says 3000 and another says 30000, it's just numbers" vs. "Jesus' family left Bethlehem for Nazareth/Egypt" where it can't be both.

 

wyson - I am no denomination; I'm an atheist and a naturalist. They are evangelical, fundamentalists. I do not intend to deride their life choices. I am very grateful for most of how they raised me. However, I don't think they've really looked into any of this. They read their Bibles, but just certain parts as devotions, not really examining the whole thing criticaly. I'm not saying to them "you've done all the wrong things," I'm saying "hey guys, I think we've made a mistake."

 

qadeshet - While that approach is the exact opposite of what I want to do, I do thank you for the link. I very much enjoyed watching his interview, he was calm, compassionate and well-spoken. I look forward to checking out his stuff in the future.

 

Let me make this clear everyone, I do want to come out to my family. I want to do it fairly soon. I want to offer at least a basic explanation. I want to continue to include them in my life.

I cannot come out in passing or through few flippant sentences. I want to explain things to them, though it may not be necessary to go into great detail all at once, so that they know I am not doing this lightly or without justification.

Talking on here and with my brother, I have come to the decision that I want to write this paper for my own use, to prepare and organize my thoughts, and I will then attempt to speak with my family on skype in perhaps a more abridged form. If there are too many technical issues, then I can always send them the full paper via email.

This is what I want to do, what I am looking for is advice on how I might do it well. I am researching and compiling on my own, I would just like it if people could suggest particularly good examples that I might look into which might not have occured to me already.

I went through this phase and was totally stone walled. My evangelical mom only cared in her Christian truth, and all other arguments were the work of the devil or my delusion, or Richard Dawkins delusion or Bart Ehrmans delusion, basically anything lacking faith was wrong.

 

I think this is the part you don't get. Their faith is FAITH. It isn't rational. True faith stands firm no matter what, including any sources or arguments you might state. They aren't interested in knowing these arguments, or else they would have looked them up themselves. The more arguments you bring up, the more delusional you are.

 

Evangelicals and Fundies will put their religion before everything else including you.

 

I do hope you feel discouraged, at least until you can stand on your own two feet. Good luck to you if not.

[Avandris]

I am considering doing much the same thing as you 00LukeMan, although the larger document I will probably keep back if and until explanations are asked for. I haven't come out yet myself, mostly because I don't feel that I am in a place yet where I feel comfortable and confident in any particular label at the moment.

 

Still, the thought of coming out to my friends and family has been a consistent thought in my mind as of late and I feel a letter would probably be the most appropriate course of action. It allows me to be honest and say what needs to be said without fear of interruption, and gives distance to allow this information to be absorbed without the risk of heated debates and people saying things they don't mean or didn't think through (myself included).

 

To begin with, I too was going to write a long document, listing each of my complaints with Christianity in detail, but the more I think about it, the less convinced I am that that would be helpful, at least to begin with. Information overload, confronting their own strongly held beliefs and so forth would just bring up walls in my opinion. I'm still writing that long document, but it is more for me than for anyone else, to order my thoughts and gather the information and resources I've found and used into one place.

 

My coming out letter will be much more to the point and streamlined, explaining what I am and reassuring them that a) it wasn't a sudden decision but a long process, b ) I'm not rebelling/angry with God, and c) that I still love and respect them even though I disagree with them. Then, and only then, will I share information from the larger document should they wish to know any more.

 

As to contradictions and issues with the Bible, there are a vast number. The conflicting creation stories in Genesis, the genocide committed or commanded by God in much of the OT. I'm currently reading a book called The Christian Delusion: Why Faith Fails edited by John Loftus but written by a number of individuals. It is fascinating and covers a huge range of things from culture to psychology to cosmology to myth in the Bible to Jesus to Morality. Lots and lots of information. The bit that I'm currently reading is examining the nativity stories and basically pulling them to shreds, namely that the census never happened, the timelines don't fit in regards to when Herod the Great lived and when Quirinius was governor of Syria, there is no recording of the massacre of the first born males despite there being individuals that recorded this period of time meticulously, and that there is an argument that at least the travelling portion of the nativity story has some similarities and could be based upon stories in Exodus.

 

I haven't checked this information from another source (which I intend to do) and I'm sure if any of the above is incorrect/inaccurate someone on here will probably correct me (with my thanks), but perhaps it's a book you might want to consider reading? 

[mymistake]

mymistake - The gospel accounts and central issues like Jesus' divinity and salvation will be my focus since they are at the heart of the matter, as well as other things like Judas' death which cannot be reconciled without becoming silly.

I am well aware of the nastiness of the Old Testament in general, I was just looking for a few choice examples that would stand out more than the rest (as if drowning the world weren't enough already). The cheerful attitude towards slavery and women as property come to mind.

For contradictions, things which cannot be easily dismissed. "Who cares if one says 3000 and another says 30000, it's just numbers" vs. "Jesus' family left Bethlehem for Nazareth/Egypt" where it can't be both.

 

 

You are right about staying away from number contradictions.  Those are a waste of time.  Forcing a rape

 

victim to marry her attacker is a good one.  Just be prepared for "But That Was Da OT" card.  So you should

 

be asking why God made that law and subjected women to that standard for about a thousand years until

 

Jesus got around to "completing the law".  The Exodus account where God hardened Pharaoh's heart so

 

that God could smite the innocent people of Egypt is a great one regarding free will.  Another awesome OT

 

example comes from the end of Judges.  Judges 20:18-27 the people prayed to God about how to solve a 

 

problem and God's plan was that the tribe of Judah shall attack the tribe of Benjamin first.  The tribe of

 

Benjamin is suppose to be part of God's chosen people.  And afterwards (vs 48) God's plan resulted in all

 

of the innocent women, children and elderly of the tribe of Benjamin being slaughtered in genocide.

[Avandris]

I'm curious, perhaps more informed people on here would be able to answer this question. The argument that Jesus 'completes the law' seems contrary to the Bible to me, doesn't Jesus himself also say that:

 

"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." - Matthew 5:18

 

Wouldn't that suggest that the Law still stands until the second coming/rapture, etc?

 

Or am I missing some context or what have you?

[★ Citsonga ★]

00LukeMan, I admire your desire to adequately state why you've reached your particular conclusions about Christianity. I did the same thing a few years ago.

 

If you're interested, you're welcome to read the 49 page letter I sent my parents (you can download it from post #13 in the second link in my signature). It served the purpose for me and has helped keep my parents from bombarding me with witnessing attempts (though, of course, I have no way of knowing how your family would respond). Feel free to even use some of the content if you'd like, although I'd definitely recommend putting everything in your own words (which would help you be more prepared to answer counter-arguments, should they happen to respond with any).

 

At any rate, good luck!

[Ellinas]

I'm not convinced by this strategy.

 

Matter for you of course, but I would be more concerned for my own sanity than for trying to stroke the egos of those who think they know the only truth.  The more the explanation you give, the more ammunition you give them if they decide they want to argue and put pressure on you.

 

When all is said and done, I'd still go with the simple approach.

 

"I'm no longer a Christian.  I cannot believe that some old compilation of mythology and poetry is absolute truth, especially when it shows a god who is an egomaniac, a tyrant and whose idea of love is to create a race in full knowledge that the majority of that race will suffer for ever.  The evidence for that is in your bible.  If you cannot see it for yourselves, I cannot explain it to you.  I have no wish to discuss this further."

[wyson]

How much detail are you going to go into? Each of those points you mention... you could do a PHd on them.

 

I think the scope of what you are asking is too huge for a single forum post.  Its like asking someone to help you write the history of the world.

 

Also, the research will take years or months not days or weeks.

 

For instance, Richard Carrier said some interesting things about how Jesus was a mythological creation, not a real person. He also debunks certain stories such as Jesus clearing the temple using archaological evidence.

 

 

In this video, Carrier speaks for about 1 hour on a single topic.  Did Jesus even exist?  

 

5 mins speech is about 500 words or 1 page of A4 / 8.5 x 11 in a 10 point font.  So, Carriers talk will probably be 12 pages in length maybe 6000 words, summarising a book that is 712 pages in length.  

 

Yet did Jesus even exist, could be but a subtopic of one of your main headings.  Other authors have written about this issue.  So there are thousands of pages on this topic.

 

Can you see the enormity of what you are undertaking?

[darwinfish]

I don't know if this is helpful or not. But, let me suggest writing two letters. One for those the want to know more about your deconversion and one for those that don't. The one's that want to know more about your reasons can be the letter that you've drafted. Most people that you know don't care about any of that. Be simplistic with that letter. Just tell them that you no longer believe the things that you used to and if they want to know more about why, you'd be more than happy to discuss it with them. I came out about 4 years ago, and asked very much the same questions that you're asking. Feel free to take my advice or leave it. But, if anything you should know you're not alone. Let us know how it goes. I'll hope for the best for you, man. 

[wyson]

Also, did you ever think about just being honest?

 

Its clear from the fact that you are asking for help and don't understand the scope of what you are asking that you haven't really done much research.  So I am guessing that your deconversion is much more about a feeling or a specific event (or series of).

 

Why not just talk about this / these?

 

Why wrap it up in a cloud of post-rationalised obfuscation?

[FreeThinkerNZ]

Luke, you are determined do to what you want, in the face of contrary advice from people with more life experience than you who are giving advice out of concern for your future wellbeing.  I didn't learn how to make rational life decisions until I was in my 40s.  Read that again and think about the implications of that.

 

We are trying to give you a valuable gift, of insight into the likely consequences of what you want to do.  Of course you don't want your parents to feel like they are being criticised for their beliefs.  But they will feel criticised anyway.  They will be defensive.  Coming out to them in the way you want to do it will cause unnecessary pain and heartache and will likely damage your relationship with them for years to come.  Until you understand the impact your words will have on them, we can't really help you with a strategy for doing what you want to do.

 

Coming out to parents is not an intrinsically bad thing to do.  But there are kinder, gentler ways to do it and there are inconsiderate, self-centred ways to do it.  If you are open to hearing about it, I can give you some advice, but at the moment I feel like I would be wasting my time.

 

The most important thing I have learned since reaching my 40s, is that people with more life experience know more about these things than I do. I wish I had seen that when I was 20. If I had, I would not have so many regrets that plague me on a daily basis.

[Avandris]

FTNZ, I'd been interested to hear what advice you have to offer (and anyone else out there that wishes to share) in regards to this. It is something that I have been thinking about and trying to decide on the best course of action for my own coming out.

 

PMs are welcome if you don't feel like posting on here.