The Impact Of Christianity

[WarriorPoet]

BAA,

 

I read the Huffington Post article.

 

I agree. America was NOT founded to be a Christian theocracy.

 

They were way too smart to go the way of the marriage Church and State like England and Europe.

 

The first sentence of the Declaration of Independence does, however, state

that our fundamental rights as humans come from God, not man.

You're not completely wrong here, the Declaration does imply that we are entitled to certain rights by "Nature's God".  I could argue the semantics here, that just because we are entitled to certain rights from some God doesn't imply that man can't grant or deny them.  After all, if there was a god that bestowed us with our rights, other humans would have a really hard time denying those rights to us, but history shows us that this has happened innumerable times.

 

None of this really matters however.  The Declaration does have a lot of flowery language, and some of it refers to an unspecified deity or creator, but it isn't a basis for anything in our society.  It has nothing to do with our laws or system of government.  It was a declaration of war against the British Empire.  That's it.

 

 

No agreement, at all, here with me I guess.

 

Okay, lets try this:

 

If our U.S. laws are not based on the Judeo-Christian belief system,

 

then what are they based on?

This is one of the easiest questions you could have asked.  It's right there in the preamble of the Constitution.

 

 

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

There it is.  Nothing to do with a god or a religion.  Just trying to create a society that provides the best system to benefit the greatest number of people possible.  We haven't always lived up to this ideal, we've made some pretty spectacular mistakes in our relatively short history.  But that illustrates one of the greatest points of our Constitution.  It was always intended to be amended and reinterprated when our understanding of what a "more perfect Union" means.  You can't do this with Judeo-Christian values.  Those are in an ancient book, a book that can't be amended or reinterpreted because they are supposedely the words of a perfect and never-changing god.

[EyesOpened]

IH would have had a better argument by asking, Why do we have to swear on the bible in court if God has nothing to do with America and our laws?

[Jeff]

Hmm wonder if they've thought this through concerning us and other religions.

Reminds me of Rhett butler. "Will you give me your word as a gentleman?"

"My word as a gentleman? Why of course!"

[raoul]

The impact of the Christian cult? Quite simply, without its poison we would probably now be at the outer edge of our own galaxy. Various writers including scientists have said the middle ages, when its influence was incredibly strong, set us back at least 1000 years. Others have posited perhaps even up to 2000 years when you take into consideration all of the science books they destroyed (Alexandrian Library for example) and other writings.

[EyesOpened]

The impact of the Christian cult? Quite simply, without its poison we would probably now be at the outer edge of our own galaxy. Various writers including scientists have said the middle ages, when its influence was incredibly strong, set us back at least 1000 years. Others have posited perhaps even up to 2000 years when you take into consideration all of the science books they destroyed (Alexandrian Library for example) and other writings.

Totally agree Raoul. Look at the leaps science has made in the last 100-200 years alone. It makes you wonder if religions didnt exist, when would we have had our first maned space flight. Just think of how OUR life on this planet would be now. Would we be well past having wars and be on to a more civil society? Makes you think.

 

Edit:spelling error

[Ravenstar]

Holy crap! That is the most biased bunch of bullshit I have ever read, short of Ken Ham. They know NOTHING about real history.

 

sad

[raoul]

Holy crap! That is the most biased bunch of bullshit I have ever read, short of Ken Ham. They know NOTHING about real history.

 

sad

It goes back to that old saying - the victors get to write history. They managed to destroy all opposition along with writings that would have exposed their myths for what they really were - mongrel versions of other religious myths.

[midniterider]

Pagan?

 

Like I didn't know this?

 

So what? It doesn't bother me.

 

That's what I love about the Christian faith, it transcends all of this. It doesn't matter.

 

 

Back to the topic:

 

I was asking about what our U.S. laws were based on.

 

Well, I think we all sort of understand that Christianity tries to destroy any competing belief systems. That's what Christians love about the Christian faith. Jesus everywhere. It's an obsession.

[midniterider]

No agreement, at all, here with me I guess.

 

Okay, lets try this:

 

If our U.S. laws are not based on the Judeo-Christian belief system,

 

then what are they based on?

 

Where did biblical laws originate?

 

One of these, maybe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_legal_codes

[midniterider]

BAA,

 

I read the Huffington Post article.

 

I agree. America was NOT founded to be a Christian theocracy.

 

They were way too smart to go the way of the marriage Church and State like England and Europe.

 

The first sentence of the Declaration of Independence does, however, state

that our fundamental rights as humans come from God, not man.

 

In other words our rights are inalienable. Nobody can take them away. I dont think the deist founding fathers were particularly counting on 'God' to intervene.

[midniterider]

The Dude's right, Ironhorse.

 

Here's how it reads. (Highlighting is mine.)

.

.

.

IN CONGRESS,  July 4, 1776.

 

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

 

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

 

Nature's God...IH is sticking up for the pagan Green Man. Woot!

[Ravenstar]

Actually, a lot of the biblical laws are based on the Pyramid Texts as well.

[midniterider]

 

Holy crap! That is the most biased bunch of bullshit I have ever read, short of Ken Ham. They know NOTHING about real history.

 

sad

It goes back to that old saying - the victors get to write history. They managed to destroy all opposition along with writings that would have exposed their myths for what they really were - mongrel versions of other religious myths.

 

 

It's not 'destruction', Raoul, it's 'transcendence...  And 'it doesnt matter.' All that matters is that Christians convert everyone to their particular obsession. These days though, since Christian savagery has been replaced by human civility they aren't allowed to kill the non-believers, just threaten them with hell.

[raoul]

 

 

Holy crap! That is the most biased bunch of bullshit I have ever read, short of Ken Ham. They know NOTHING about real history.

 

sad

It goes back to that old saying - the victors get to write history. They managed to destroy all opposition along with writings that would have exposed their myths for what they really were - mongrel versions of other religious myths.

 

 

It's not 'destruction', Raoul, it's 'transcendence...  And 'it doesnt matter.' All that matters is that Christians convert everyone to their particular obsession. These days though, since Christian savagery has been replaced by human civility they aren't allowed to kill the non-believers, just threaten them with hell.

 

It's destruction as in the historical sense of what has occurred. And I'm very familiar with the xtian 'borrowing' from other religious myths such as the Pyramid I believe you mentioned - the book of the dead, the Babylonian depiction of a great flood which was 'borrowed' from the Sumerians, and so on. For the past few years I've been studying at a frenzied pace regarding this insidious disease called Christianity. And yes, they don't kill anyone nowadays but given the power, that could change in a moment's time.

[duderonomy]

  Oops! I put my comment in the wrong thread. Sorry...move along...

[raoul]

The Dude's right, Ironhorse.

 

Here's how it reads. (Highlighting is mine.)

.

.

.

IN CONGRESS,  July 4, 1776.

 

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

 

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

.

.

.

The second sentence is to be read in the context of the first, because the first establishes which God is being referred to by the assembly on that day. 

 

This is not the Judaeo-Christian God of the Bible. 

It is Nature and the Natural, not the super-natural.

 

Clear, now?

Gee. I wonder why IH left out the descriptor, nature. LOL

[Castiel233]

Even accepting the lie, that some believers spread,  that the founders "intended" for the US to be a Christian nation, which brand of the faith should the US adopt.

 

I've said this before, if fundy's really believe in "God we trust", then stand down the military, dispose of the nukes and close all the hospitals, then (as Rick Perry says) hand everything over the God and get Him to fix it   

[ironhorse]

I did not say America was founded as a Christian nation. 

I did say it was founded with Judeo-Christian principles.

 

 

"Listed below are a few principles or ideals to which the Founders adhered. Given immediately following each one are passages showing Judeo-Christian roots of that principle and then passages reflecting the use of the principle in America's founding documents. This list is by no means meant to be exhaustive, but only to exemplify the concept that America's Founding ideals have their roots in Judeo-Christian tradition. It should not be surprising that the Bible is quoted often as the source of the Founders' thinking for studies have shown the Bible is by far the most often quoted source in all of the publications and speeches of the founding era."

 

http://www.nccs.net/2003-05-judeo-christian-roots-of-americas-founding-ideals-and-documents.php

[mymistake]

Ironhorse you say a lot of things that are wrong.  This is one more example.

 

Cherry picked verses are not compelling.  Christianity did not invent the good.

[sdelsolray]

Leaving aside the biased quote mine and lack of any analysis by Tin Pony, this is funny.  Tin Pony thinks his religion has a patent, copyright and trademark on (i) moral and ethical behavior, (ii) democracy, (iii) freedom of speech, religion and assembly, among other freedoms, (iv) equal rights for all persons, (v) due process, (vi) right to vote, (vii) right to trial by jury, etc., etc. etc.

 

Of course, his gang of sky fairies and the religions surrounding them provide little, if any, of this.  Indeed, are there any Judeo-Christian principles, other than those taken from earlier or contemporary socieities (e.g., Babylonian, Egyptian, etc.), that are original to either the Jewish or Christian religions?  Sure, there's the "do as I say and not as I do" ethic.  That's meaningful.  And there's the "if you don't do what I say I will kill you meme".  That's a great one for humanity.  And let's not forget the "rely not on reason but on faith" nonsense.  

 

Yeah, Tin Pony is a funny guy.  His religion, however, is pathetic.

[bornagainathiest]

I did not say America was founded as a Christian nation. 

I did say it was founded with Judeo-Christian principles.

 

 

"Listed below are a few principles or ideals to which the Founders adhered. Given immediately following each one are passages showing Judeo-Christian roots of that principle and then passages reflecting the use of the principle in America's founding documents. This list is by no means meant to be exhaustive, but only to exemplify the concept that America's Founding ideals have their roots in Judeo-Christian tradition. It should not be surprising that the Bible is quoted often as the source of the Founders' thinking for studies have shown the Bible is by far the most often quoted source in all of the publications and speeches of the founding era."

 

http://www.nccs.net/2003-05-judeo-christian-roots-of-americas-founding-ideals-and-documents.php

 

America was also founded on Greek-inspired principles of democracy and the citizen's right to vote - something absent from Judaeo-Christianity.

[raoul]

I did not say America was founded as a Christian nation. 

I did say it was founded with Judeo-Christian principles.

 

 

"Listed below are a few principles or ideals to which the Founders adhered. Given immediately following each one are passages showing Judeo-Christian roots of that principle and then passages reflecting the use of the principle in America's founding documents. This list is by no means meant to be exhaustive, but only to exemplify the concept that America's Founding ideals have their roots in Judeo-Christian tradition. It should not be surprising that the Bible is quoted often as the source of the Founders' thinking for studies have shown the Bible is by far the most often quoted source in all of the publications and speeches of the founding era."

 

http://www.nccs.net/2003-05-judeo-christian-roots-of-americas-founding-ideals-and-documents.php A corrupted fundy source used where they quote bible verses? That's the proof? LOL No, the Founding Fathers were well known for their Deistic and/or even Atheist stance when it came to religion. Here's the more reliable proof of my claim:

http://www.earlyamerica.com/early-america-review/volume-2/secular-government/

[bornagainathiest]

Fyi Raoul,

 

This is the second time Ironhorse's tried to pull his 'Christianity-underpins-everything' argument.

 

He did it in the, "No #### Sherlock" thread (go back to page # 9 of the Den archives), back in May last year, when he claimed that science owes it's existence to Christianity.

 

Different content today, but same kind of biased and selective argument.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[raoul]

Fyi Raoul,

 

This is the second time Ironhorse's tried to pull his 'Christianity-underpins-everything' argument.

 

He did it in the, "No #### Sherlock" thread (go back to page # 9 of the Den archives), back in May last year, when he claimed that science owes it's existence to Christianity.

 

Different content today, but same kind of biased and selective argument.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

Thanks for sharing that, BAA but no surprise there. I've encountered this behavior elsewhere - they'll repeat the same bs over and over no matter how much we beat it down with sound evidence based on empirical facts gleaned from actual history. Dr. Richard Carrier gave an excellent lecture regarding the scientists who were theist in the middle or even earlier ages. He spoke about their integrity in their various disciplines which would cause them to not follow religious dogma if it contradicted their scientific findings. As Carrier put it, they would discard the religious belief in conflict with the scientific findings. I've made a videos and written about this as well. And I always end with the same comment - if those scientists were alive today, MOST of them would not be theists. After all, how can we explain why over 95% of the scientists in most fields are non theists?

 

But regarding him repeating the same crap - that's probably the only weapon they have in their arsenal. As the Nazi, Goering said - repeat the lie enough times until it's believed as truth. Not a direct quote but close enough. Thanks again.

[sdelsolray]

As already mentioned, Tin Pony is repeating one of his earlier claims supporting it with cut and pastes from biased and disingenuous websites.  Yes, Tin Pony is a real scholar.

 

His current claim, that the USA is founded on (implicitly exclusive) Judeo-Christian principles (whatever those are), was previously refuted, along with an earlier parallel claim - that science is based on Christian principles (note: not Jewish, just Christian), was also shot down convincingly.

 

Accordingly, I proclaim Tin Pony as a peddler of PRATTs.