The Preacher Talked About Greed This Morning

[bornagainathiest]

Dude,

 

You get where I am with this, right?

 

That the standard I'm holding End (and the other Christians) to is the one described in the Bible itself.  As recorded in the Gospels, Acts and in the Epistles.  That standard being the accepted one of Christian doctrine and theology, which says that Christian believers aren't "finished" in Christ until they die or until Jesus returns, whichever happens first.  That the early church was made up of ordinary people (fishermen, tax collectors, tent makers, etc.)  who were fallible, sinful and in no way perfected or finished. 

 

Scripture tells us the Peter and Paul disagreed and argued.

That Paul had a major disagreement with Barnabus.  That there were factions, discord and rivalries in the early church.  That the churches of Corinth, Rome, Galatia and Ephesus misused the gifts of the spirit and needed correction and disciplining from Paul.  That some believers wandered from the truth and fell back into sinful ways.  That there were misunderstandings about the role of Mosaic Law which needed addressing.  And so on.  Just ordinary people, stumbling along the way and getting it wrong... as ordinary people do. 

 

In Acts we see that for all of their imperfections, the early church thrived and grew.

Why?  Because they were obedient to God.  They did as he commanded and fed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, clothed the naked, healed and cared for the sick, visited those in prison, comforted the grieving, forgave their enemies and prayed for them, lived at peace with each other, replied to insults with blessing instead of curses, sold their properties for the common good and confessed their sins to each other.

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We're on the same page here, right?

 

That we see Christianity totally the other way round to End?

 

He seems to be saying that he shouldn't do any of the above unless and until he's been somehow "finished" by Christ (whatever that means?) and only when that happens, can he do these things.

 

Whereas, we're saying the opposite.  That a Christian shows their love for God by doing all of these things, day by day, just as they are, without waiting on God to be "finished" - just as the early Christians did. 

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Your thoughts?

 

BAA

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[duderonomy]

I think we're on the same page on this, BAA. 

 

Christians here present their own view of what they think God and Gospel are all about, and they get a little hot under the collar when presented with what the Bible actually says.  I mean, it could lead to a discussion about the Bible instead of personal abstract esoteric philosophies, and they can't have that!

[bornagainathiest]

I think we're on the same page on this, BAA. 

 

Christians here present their own view of what they think God and Gospel are all about, and they get a little hot under the collar when presented with what the Bible actually says.  I mean, it could lead to a discussion about the Bible instead of personal abstract esoteric philosophies, and they can't have that!

 

So what do you think End means by Christians being "finished in Christ", Dude...?  

 

I tried Googling that phrase, but came up with nothing much that was relevant.

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Also, do you see that H-U-G-E disconnect involved if End really does think it's impossible for him to live up to the standards of the early church?

 

He has no problem at all accepting by faith that God literally spoke the universe into existence over 6 days, no problem accepting a literal Adam and Eve and a talking snake, no problem accepting the seven plagues of Egypt and the parting of the Red Sea, no problem with water flowing from a rock that was struck by Moses' staff, no problem accepting a literal virgin birth of Jesus, no problem accepting water changing into wine, Jesus walking on water, raising Lazarus, multiplying loaves and fishes, no problem accepting Christ rising from the dead after three days, no problem with Jesus appearing in a locked room and no problem with the gaping wounds in Christ's hands, feet and side.

 

Nope!  All of these things he can accept by faith as literally true.  He doesn't just consider them possible, but also historical.  But when it comes to feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, forgiving his enemies and loving others...

 

...these things are impossible for him to do?

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[EyesOpened]

 

Sure they do. Believing X may be good for survival and actually true to one's individual experience.

 

 

 

People routinely get themselves killed by holding false beliefs.  True isn't an individual experience.  You are

 

making excuses for reckless thinking.

I think what MM said here explains a lot of Christianity. Having a belief gives a believer room to cop out and take the easy way out instead of searching for an answer.

[duderonomy]

 

I think we're on the same page on this, BAA. 

 

Christians here present their own view of what they think God and Gospel are all about, and they get a little hot under the collar when presented with what the Bible actually says.  I mean, it could lead to a discussion about the Bible instead of personal abstract esoteric philosophies, and they can't have that!

 

So what do you think End means by Christians being "finished in Christ", Dude...?  

 

I tried Googling that phrase, but came up with nothing much that was relevant.

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Also, do you see that H-U-G-E disconnect involved if End really does think it's impossible for him to live up to the standards of the early church?

 

He has no problem at all accepting by faith that God literally spoke the universe into existence over 6 days, no problem accepting a literal Adam and Eve and a talking snake, no problem accepting the seven plagues of Egypt and the parting of the Red Sea, no problem with water flowing from a rock that was struck by Moses' staff, no problem accepting a literal virgin birth of Jesus, no problem accepting water changing into wine, Jesus walking on water, raising Lazarus, multiplying loaves and fishes, no problem accepting Christ rising from the dead after three days, no problem with Jesus appearing in a locked room and no problem with the gaping wounds in Christ's hands, feet and side.

 

Nope!  All of these things he can accept by faith as literally true.  He doesn't just consider them possible, but also historical.  But when it comes to feeding the hungry, clothing the poor, forgiving his enemies and loving others...

 

...these things are impossible for him to do?

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?

 

 

I hope BAA, that End3 comes by this thread next time he's on Ex-C. If we are wrong, he could set us right, right?

 

But yeah, I think his personal abstract esoteric philosophies have him frozen in place.

IMHO, he doesn't believe in Christianity anymore, but it's all he has to hang onto, no matter how small the straw he clings to.

 

He doesn't feel that he can spare even two mites, but he doesn't know that he can also give of his time? What time you ask, BAA? The very time you mentioned, of course. The time he spends here talking bullshit.  But Wait! Anything he gives without waiting for God is just filthy rags, right? Worth nothing!

 

End3 might be waiting for the call of God before he does anything like, for example, apologizing to FreeThinkerNZ, or the rest of us stupid fuckers. 

 

ETA: Or was fucking idiots? Really, I don't know. 

 

Why does End3, a Christian, hang around all this time on Ex-C? Doesn't he realize that we have to try to get along together, because no one is dripping the Blood of Christ on us? 

[midniterider]

Why does End3, a Christian, hang around all this time on Ex-C? Doesn't he realize that we have to try to get along together, because no one is dripping the Blood of Christ on us? 

 

 

The fruit of his ministry is starting to pay off, Dude.

 

I know you feel the stirring of Jesus inside you. Dont deny it, now.

[bornagainathiest]

The Dude wrote...

 

"I hope BAA, that End3 comes by this thread next time he's on Ex-C.  If we are wrong, he could set us right, right?"

 

Yes Dude, he certainly could do that.

If I were in his shoes, I would do that.  I'd have no hesitation in setting my critics right by showing them how my beliefs, my behavior and scripture all line up.  That would show these unbelievers that Christianity isn't just a myth or some unattainable ideal that nobody can live up to! 

 

With my life I'd be vindicating the truth of the Bible.

Because it'd be plain to see from what I write and how I conduct myself that Jesus lives within me.  And if they can see that he lives within me, then this is proof poz to them that it's all true - his resurrection, his crucifixion, his virgin birth, the OT prophecies about him, Adam and Eve - everything!  I wouldn't have to rely on anything else.  My totally transformed life would be the best evidence to them that Jesus Christ is exactly who the Bible says he is.

 

Yep! 

If I were End I'd have set BAA, Duderonomy and MyMistake right by now.

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And so we wait.

 

 

[Guest end3]

Lol, BAA, this goes back specifically to a thread/discussion that you and I had years ago....whether salvation was a process or immediate. Forget the specific verse, but paraphrasing from memory...."what must I do to be finished/complete"? Gheeze I need to go back and start reading again.

 

Anyhow, surprised you don't have it in "BAA's diary of Christian responses"....volume 4 I think.

 

Long story short, it eludes to salvation being a process.... As I remember, you were arguing for instantaneous salvation.

[mymistake]

Makes sense since there are hundreds of different versions of the Bible and thousands of different ways to

 

interprete the Bible.  So even with the most basic questions about the core issues there are no easy answers.

[bornagainathiest]

Yes, End.

 

Instantaneous salvation achieved by an act of faith.

The thief crucified next to Jesus obtained instantaneous salvation by his open declaration of faith.  He had next to no time left on earth (hours or minutes?) to work thru his salvation in a slow, drawn-out process.

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But please explain to the Dude, MM and myself your take on this.  Slow vs. Instant.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

To help you out End, please read Acts 2 : 37 - 41 and consider this question.

 

"Were the 3,000 who were baptized on that day SAVED on that day?"

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

"What must I do to be finished/completed?"

 

Or...

 

"What must I do to be saved?"

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If it's the second, then it could be Acts 16 : 25 - 34, when the jailer and his family are saved on that day.

[Guest end3]

Tell me BAA, if salvation is Christ dependent, how do you discern instantaneous....especially since Christ know us before we are knit together....Splain that one Lucy.

 

Let me see if I can find the verse

[mymistake]

Tell me BAA, if salvation is Christ dependent, how do you discern instantaneous....especially since Christ know us before we are knit together....Splain that one Lucy.

 

Let me see if I can find the verse

 

 

? ? ?

 

Really?

 

 

 

You are using posturing as if you are asking a super tough question; one that should leave us stumped and

 

speechless.  But really my 11 year old kid can explain the concept of discerning instantaneous.  It has

 

nothing to do with Christ knowing us or the cause of salvation.  How can you think this is a tough question?

[Guest end3]

 

Tell me BAA, if salvation is Christ dependent, how do you discern instantaneous....especially since Christ know us before we are knit together....Splain that one Lucy.

 

Let me see if I can find the verse

 

 

? ? ?

 

Really?

 

Yes, explain how you see it logically different.

[mymistake]

Sometimes in the moment that something is happening fast we perceive it as a flash.

 

Sometimes the human mind lays down dense memories so we perceive it as slow motion.

 

At other times we miss things that happen too fast and perceive it only as a change.

 

The cause of salvation and omnipotence have no effect.

 

 

 

Oh boy, was that a super duper tough question to answer!!!!!!!!

[bornagainathiest]

Tell me BAA, if salvation is Christ dependent, how do you discern instantaneous....especially since Christ know us before we are knit together....Splain that one Lucy.

 

Let me see if I can find the verse

 

Because salvation is a free choice that we can only make while we live.

 

We can't make it before we're alive or after we're dead.

 

We only have this life to do it in.

 

We're not talking about the eternal nature of Christ here, but the mortal nature of us human beings.

 

Please go look up Acts 2 : 37 -41 and consider my question, End.

 

Also, please read this and ask yourself when Zaccheus was saved.

 

Luke 19New International Version (NIV) Zacchaeus the Tax Collector

19 Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”

8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

[Guest end3]

 

Tell me BAA, if salvation is Christ dependent, how do you discern instantaneous....especially since Christ know us before we are knit together....Splain that one Lucy.

 

Let me see if I can find the verse

 

Because salvation is a free choice that we can only make while we live.

 

We can't make it before we're alive or after we're dead.

 

We only have this life to do it in.

 

We're not talking about the eternal nature of Christ here, but the mortal nature of us human beings.

 

Please go look up Acts 2 : 37 -41 and consider my question, End.

 

Also, please read this and ask yourself when Zaccheus was saved.

 

Luke 19New International Version (NIV) Zacchaeus the Tax Collector

19 Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”

8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

 

When he talks about salvation coming to the house, is he talking about Jesus or Zacchaeus?

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

Tell me BAA, if salvation is Christ dependent, how do you discern instantaneous....especially since Christ know us before we are knit together....Splain that one Lucy.

 

Let me see if I can find the verse

 

Because salvation is a free choice that we can only make while we live.

 

We can't make it before we're alive or after we're dead.

 

We only have this life to do it in.

 

We're not talking about the eternal nature of Christ here, but the mortal nature of us human beings.

 

Please go look up Acts 2 : 37 -41 and consider my question, End.

 

Also, please read this and ask yourself when Zaccheus was saved.

 

Luke 19New International Version (NIV) Zacchaeus the Tax Collector

19 Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, “He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.”

8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

 

When he talks about salvation coming to the house, is he talking about Jesus or Zacchaeus?

 

 

If Zacchaeus' salvation had depended only on Jesus entering his house and not on his change of heart, then the passage would have read like this, End.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Luke 19New International Version (NIV) Zacchaeus the Tax Collector

19 Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

 

9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

 

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In this scenario, it was Jesus entering his house that saved Zacchaeus.

 

But that's not what the Bible says, is it?

 

What actually saved Zacchaeus wasn't Jesus coming to eat with him.  

 

No!  

 

It was the life-changing act of faith that Zacchaeus made that saved him...on that day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bornagainathiest]

For further help on when and how salvation comes in a person's life End, please read all of Hebrews 11 and take note of the following.

 

Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Joseph, Moses and many others were all looking ahead (by faith) to when their faith would be rewarded.  

 

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance,admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one.Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

 

So they were not finished or perfected while they lived, but looked ahead to a future time when they would be.

 

39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

 

And so it has been from NT times onwards.

Once Christians have received the seal of the Holy Spirit (guaranteeing their future resurrection) they are saved by their faith.  This doesn't mean that they become perfect there and then or try to become perfect in their mortal lives.  It means that they have God's unbreakable promise and guarantee that he will finish and perfect them when they die or when Jesus returns, whichever happens first.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

 

 

 

[midniterider]

Lol, BAA, this goes back specifically to a thread/discussion that you and I had years ago....whether salvation was a process or immediate. Forget the specific verse, but paraphrasing from memory...."what must I do to be finished/complete"? Gheeze I need to go back and start reading again.

 

Anyhow, surprised you don't have it in "BAA's diary of Christian responses"....volume 4 I think.

 

Long story short, it eludes to salvation being a process.... As I remember, you were arguing for instantaneous salvation.

 

Can it be expressed as a percentage?

[midniterider]

Tell me BAA, if salvation is Christ dependent, how do you discern instantaneous....especially since Christ know us before we are knit together....Splain that one Lucy.

 

Let me see if I can find the verse

 

If salvation is Christ dependent then instantaneous means 'never' because Jesus isn't real.

[Ravenstar]

Isn't the baptism of the Holy Spirit supposed to make one anew?  I don't remember there being a 'process' mentioned. It was supposed to happen when one accepted Jesus into one's heart.

 

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

[bornagainathiest]

That's right Ravenstar.

 

There's an instant change as the believer moves from darkness into light, from spiritual deadness into spiritual life.  This change happens because the believer has now entered into the New Covenant of Grace, with God.  This covenant can be thought of as a contract between the sinner and God.  The contract guarantees them immediate benefits and future benefits - but only if they keep their side of the bargain and keep on renewing their commitment to the contract every day.  

 

That's why it's not enough for someone to accept this free gift of grace from God by faith and then do nothing else. Since they've been Born-Again and have the Holy Spirit of Jesus living within them, God expects them to submit their lives (day by day) to Him so that He can change them more and more into the likeness of His Son.  That's why they must bear fruit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control) for God, showing to the world that they are His children.  (See Matthew 3 : 8 - 10, Matthew 7 : 16 -20 and John 15 : 1 - 17)

 

So when someone is saved - that's an instant change.

They are saved, but their salvation isn't complete and is in no way finished.  Now it's up to them to fulfil their side of the bargain.  The security of their salvation is in THEIR OWN HANDS and they have to demonstrate a daily commitment to God for the rest of their lives.  They should continue to work out their salvation with fear and trembling (see Philippians 2 : 12) because if they let things slide and fail to submit their lives to God - that's treating the Holy Spirit with contempt.  There are warnings about this in scripture.  Sadly, Christians can slowly kill their own faith stone dead in this way.

 

Hebrews 6 : 7 & 8

"Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives a blessing from God"

I.e., The Holy Spirit works in a Christian's life to produce good spiritual fruit for God.

"But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed.  In the end it will be burned."

I.e., A Christian who produces bad spiritual fruit will lose their salvation.

 

When they do this God blots their names out of the Book of Life.

After all, why does anyone with a dead faith deserve to have their name kept in the Book of Life?  By gradually killing off their relationship with Jesus they've reneged on the terms and conditions of the contract and covenant they entered into.  They were promised new life and they've slowly, selfishly strangled that new life until it's dead.  Their bad spiritual fruit shows to all that they are back to square one - just as spiritually dead as they were before they accepted God's offer of salvation.

 

So, if a person goes on sinning after they're saved, are really they still born again?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[duderonomy]

I was (although not always entirely) in the "once saved-always saved" camp. To me, it wasn't that I had to do anything to keep my salvation, it was God working in me both to will and to do Christian things. He that had begun a good work in me would continue to do that until the end, no one could pluck me out of his hand, etc.

I did good because as a new creature in Christ, I wanted to. 

 

My point is, that whether  Christians want to obey, or have to obey, they obey.  There is no option to sit and wait to be made perfect or complete before following Jesus' example. You can't follow Jesus by standing in one spot waiting for him.

 

As for salvation being instantaneous, it is according to the Bible. Being "born again" is like being born. Plop, there you are. It doesn't take weeks or months or years. 

 

I'm not entirely clear on what E3's position is. Does he think it takes a long time to be "saved"?  I'll let him speak for himself but in the meantime, is there a thread or a post of his anyone could direct me to? I'm wondering if somewhere I'm missing the point here.