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Goodbye Jesus

The Real God


Paul

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Hello everyone,

 

First, I must start with the simple truth that God is real. It is true. However, the experience I have had has lead me to the realisation that there is a large differential between the public perception of God and the reality. The only people who truly understood God were the ancient Greeks of the Hellenistic period. And He hasn't changed a bit since those times.

 

Posting in the Colosseum section is quite appropriate for me. Because during the experience I had, and despite the experience occurring in a church and me being a Christian, I was pointed very firmly to Bacchus/Dionysus as the source of the experience, not via a 'booming voice', but via a material sign which threw up so many incredible coincidences between my experience and the sign, that I had to deduct that it was from an 'external force'. Being a Christian, I did not want to accept this. Typically, I thought it was a test, or that 'Satan' had control of me. Over time, when I realised I still had free will and was able to look at it objectively, the 'Satanic' explanation was dropped. Since then I have tried to get on with life but this force won't let me retreat back into my Christian comfort zone. It keeps letting me know deep down that it is still 'on the scene', and that, strangely, ridiculously, I have a connection or affiliation with ancient Rome and am even a Pagan by nature! The things which it offers correspond exactly with the epithets of Dionysus. I know, it sounds ridiculous, but in the early days I tried to fight against this force and nearly went mad.

 

So, for a moment, I ask you to suspend disbelief for a while, and consider that Dionysus is actually a real spiritual force. We know that Nietzsche had trouble with Dionysus, and, indeed he went mad. Carl Jung was another philosopher who came into contact with the god and fared better. How he did this I do not know. Perhaps his faith helped him. In my case, my faith is confused at the moment. From experience, I know that this force can affect the brain and give it incredible knowledge and creativity, as well as insanity. Based on such a conclusion, I would also suggest that the poet William Blake came into contact with this god as well. Knowing for certain that Dionysus is real now leads me to suggest that something else was going on in the Dionysian Mysteries aside from drinking; something spiritual and not of this world. It throws up lots of interesting questions: how can a people as intelligent and moralistic as the ancient Greeks be apparently so debauched? Was it really the case, or was a Church hatchet job carried out on them later on? Who had the means and the brains to edit history if not the Church?  The Christians were certainly quite happy retaining Dionysus' wine and bread, and they had a lot of respect for him, it seems. If Pagan Rome was so bad, why were the Roman authorities attempting to tone down some of the wilder excesses of the Bacchic cult?

 

Can you understand all this? I can't. But it is happening to me. Am I mad? Look at my post. In all honesty, does it look like the words of a madman? I am not trying to peddle Christianity or re-convert you. I am offering a third way if you like, between materialism and organised religion. I suppose I am offering hope to you all. God is more like us than we realise. Life is not about getting saved, it is about learning. We are all already a part of God, we don't need saving. I can see that organised religion has caused unnecessary pain and guilt to people using artifice and repression and instead of being 'a part of God', we are now 'apart from God'. In doing this, organised religion has sown the seeds of its own downfall. I still partake in organised religion, and perhaps always will do, but I can see that the image it portrays of God is different from the reality.

 

Best wishes,

Paul.

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Edit:

 

So Paul can we be clear about this:  Are you an ex-Christian?  I'm not asking if your go to a Christian

 

church.  Church attendance is irrelevant.  Plenty of ex-Christians still go to Christian church.  What I 

 

mean is have you stopped believing in Jesus?  It's okay if you have to give lip service to Christians if you 

 

need to maintain an illusion.  But privately are you one of us; are you an ex-Christaian? 

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I know, it sounds ridiculous, but in the early days I tried to fight against this force and nearly went mad.

 

Nearly?

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Is that your only contribution to this discussion?

 

Come on, I thought atheists had brains. Tell me why I'm mad. I can't just be mad because I disagree with your worldview, surely?. Explain in scientific terms why I am mad.

 

Best wishes,

Paul.

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Hello everyone,

 

First, I must start with the simple truth that God is real. It is true. However, the experience I have had has lead me to the realisation that there is a large differential between the public perception of God and the reality. The only people who truly understood God were the ancient Greeks of the Hellenistic period. And He hasn't changed a bit since those times.

 

Posting in the Colosseum section is quite appropriate for me. Because during the experience I had, and despite the experience occurring in a church and me being a Christian, I was pointed very firmly to Bacchus/Dionysus as the source of the experience, not via a 'booming voice', but via a material sign which threw up so many incredible coincidences between my experience and the sign, that I had to deduct that it was from an 'external force'. Being a Christian, I did not want to accept this. Typically, I thought it was a test, or that 'Satan' had control of me. Over time, when I realised I still had free will and was able to look at it objectively, the 'Satanic' explanation was dropped. Since then I have tried to get on with life but this force won't let me retreat back into my Christian comfort zone. It keeps letting me know deep down that it is still 'on the scene', and that, strangely, ridiculously, I have a connection or affiliation with ancient Rome and am even a Pagan by nature! The things which it offers correspond exactly with the epithets of Dionysus. I know, it sounds ridiculous, but in the early days I tried to fight against this force and nearly went mad.

 

So, for a moment, I ask you to suspend disbelief for a while, and consider that Dionysus is actually a real spiritual force. We know that Nietzsche had trouble with Dionysus, and, indeed he went mad. Carl Jung was another philosopher who came into contact with the god and fared better. How he did this I do not know. Perhaps his faith helped him. In my case, my faith is confused at the moment. From experience, I know that this force can affect the brain and give it incredible knowledge and creativity, as well as insanity. Based on such a conclusion, I would also suggest that the poet William Blake came into contact with this god as well. Knowing for certain that Dionysus is real now leads me to suggest that something else was going on in the Dionysian Mysteries aside from drinking; something spiritual and not of this world. It throws up lots of interesting questions: how can a people as intelligent and moralistic as the ancient Greeks be apparently so debauched? Was it really the case, or was a Church hatchet job carried out on them later on? Who had the means and the brains to edit history if not the Church?  The Christians were certainly quite happy retaining Dionysus' wine and bread, and they had a lot of respect for him, it seems. If Pagan Rome was so bad, why were the Roman authorities attempting to tone down some of the wilder excesses of the Bacchic cult?

 

Can you understand all this? I can't. But it is happening to me. Am I mad? Look at my post. In all honesty, does it look like the words of a madman? I am not trying to peddle Christianity or re-convert you. I am offering a third way if you like, between materialism and organised religion. I suppose I am offering hope to you all. God is more like us than we realise. Life is not about getting saved, it is about learning. We are all already a part of God, we don't need saving. I can see that organised religion has caused unnecessary pain and guilt to people using artifice and repression and instead of being 'a part of God', we are now 'apart from God'. In doing this, organised religion has sown the seeds of its own downfall. I still partake in organised religion, and perhaps always will do, but I can see that the image it portrays of God is different from the reality.

 

Best wishes,

Paul.

 

Welcome to the Forum.

 

You consider yourself a gnostic theist, i.e., you "know" the truth.

 

You base this claim on an "experience" you had, and perhaps for other reasons.

 

The human brain is a complex organ.  Sometimes, chemical imbalances occur in the brain causing a variety of experiences, many of which are irrational and not based on reality.

 

Have you investigated this possibility with the secular mental health professional of your choosing?

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Is that your only contribution to this discussion?

 

Come on, I thought atheists had brains. Tell me why I'm mad. I can't just be mad because I disagree with your worldview, surely?. Explain in scientific terms why I am mad.

 

Best wishes,

Paul.

 

 

If Dionysus is real then wouldn't the rest of his peers be real as well?  Either way is problematic.  Either you 

 

​wind up with a special pleading or Jupiter and Saturn are divine planets.

 

 

 

 

Where is your empirical evidence to make these extraordinary claims about Dionysus?  Your claims are 

 

starving for a lack of evidence.

 

 

 

 

Let me guess.  You are in the process of leaving Christianity but you are looking for an alternative religion

 

so that you can keep your promise to God even though Christianity fell apart?  That was where I was

 

about half a decade ago.  I preferred logic so I went in the direction of deism until I could not sustain it

 

any longer.  I don't have a problem with you having a religion as long as you don't hurt anybody else with

 

it.  As long as you are a ex-Christian you are welcome to talk about your alternative views in the Spirituality

 

section.  Ask one of the moderators to remove you from the believer group (It's easy - just deny Christ!)

 

and give you permission to post in the Spirituality section.

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Is that your only contribution to this discussion?

 

Come on, I thought atheists had brains. Tell me why I'm mad. I can't just be mad because I disagree with your worldview, surely?. Explain in scientific terms why I am mad.

 

Best wishes,

Paul.

There is no discussion to contribute to. You have simply made an extraordinary assertion without any evidence. Such things are a dime a dozen. Nothing to see here.

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And you know this is Dionysus and not, say, Nyarlathotep, or Cthulhu, or Loki, or Sheogorath, or Moose (Fun fact: Not actually a moose.), or any number of other trickster gods, or gods of madness, how exactly?

 

If I suspend disbelief for your god, I have to suspend disbelief for all gods.

 

Praise be H----r, and the one true creator of all, Demon Sultan Azathoth.

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Sorry Paul,

 

I stopped suspending disbelief years ago and with all due respect I won't be starting again, even though you've asked nicely.

 

But I will give my attention to any objective evidence you'd care to submit to support your beliefs.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

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For me it was various forms of christianity - then Ceremonial Magick, then Gnostic mysticism, and then Cerrunnos and Cerridwen, and then the genius locii...then just the Great Lady/Mother Nature,  and now it's just life. I have had experiences I can't explain... I have done things I can't explain

 

It doesn't matter though because life rolls on as it always had... nothing changes except my perception of it. I'm happier and more effective now... and much less of a flake, whiner or douchebag.

 

It's better now

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First, I must start with the simple truth that God is real. It is true.

 

Alright. So you have The Truth. Others do not because they don't have your unique understanding. So far you have provided no evidence to be accepted or refuted. You just have your claim. 

 

Prove it or go away. 

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My diagnosis as a Professional Ex - Christian Phd. is that somewhere along the line you were exposed to some sort of non-Christian thoughts that made you realize christianity isn't quite what you were taught to think it is. And instead of following that train of thought to its most honest and logical conclusion, you simply filled the gaps with another belief system. And now, NOW you've finally arrived at the "Truth™".

 

Yes, we see this happen all the time here. No, you are not alone in your delusion. But you'll find no company here. Move along.

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Good morning everyone,

 

You ask if I am still a Christian and still believe in Jesus. Yes, to both. I could best describe my situation as similar to Carl Jung's. It just happened to me.

 

You ask if I have sought medical help. Not yet. It is a possibility for the future, but at the moment I do not wish to burden our overworked health service with something I do not believe to be an illness. I am not saying I will never consult a health professional, but it is not an option for the time being.

 

You ask where is my 'empirical evidence' for these claims. I have to ask, where is your 'empirical evidence' that I am mad?. I do hope you aren't going to use words as evidence. After all, you have all debunked the Bible by the same rule of thumb.

 

I am not looking for an alternative religion. Strangely, it seems that many of you are. I see many of your profiles carry beliefs in alternatives such as philosophy and mythology. And of course, your atheism is a religion in itself, which you defend with a zeal as fierce as any medieval Christian's.

 

'Prove it or move away', 'You'll find no company here, move along'.

 

Come, come now. I hope this website is not merely a mutual back-slapping society.

 

And you say Christians are closed-minded and intolerant!

 

Best wishes,

Paul.

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What YOU don't understand is that everything you're saying in the op is exactly the type of thing we've heard a million times before.

 

Bring something new to the table and I guarantee our minds will be "open" to it.

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I want you to debate with me, but it seems you haven't got the brains for it.

 

I have heard your atheist arguments a million times before too. I had hoped you would bring something to the table other than typical one-line replies that, alas, I have also seen a million times before. It is similar to the Christian reply of 'God moves in mysterious ways'. It gets us nowhere.

 

This is too easy. But poking sticks at cage-dwellers isn't very Christian, so perhaps I should refrain from doing it! :)

 

Best wishes,

Paul.

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I want you to debate with me, but it seems you haven't got the brains for it.

 

I have heard your atheist arguments a million times before too. I had hoped you would bring something to the table other than typical one-line replies that, alas, I have also seen a million times before. It is similar to the Christian reply of 'God moves in mysterious ways'. It gets us nowhere.

 

This is too easy. But poking sticks at cage-dwellers isn't very Christian, so perhaps I should refrain from doing it! :)

 

Best wishes,

Paul.

You've just racked up an unbelievable amount of points in this post.

 

Enjoy your stay here! :)

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I want you to debate with me, but it seems you haven't got the brains for it.

 

I have heard your atheist arguments a million times before too. I had hoped you would bring something to the table other than typical one-line replies that, alas, I have also seen a million times before. It is similar to the Christian reply of 'God moves in mysterious ways'. It gets us nowhere.

 

This is too easy. But poking sticks at cage-dwellers isn't very Christian, so perhaps I should refrain from doing it! smile.png

 

Best wishes,

Paul.

 

The problem is you, and every other religious person in the world, fail to bring any evidence to support the existence of your particular version of a particular god/religion, that you just so happen to have been taught to believe in since your childhood, and so happens to be the one true god/religion... If you will forgive the assumption, I actually have no way of knowing how you where roped into your particular flavor of christianity.

 

Special pleading will get you nowhere, all gods are equal and none are anything more than the byproducts of the imaginations of ancient ignorant men that wanted some power over other ancient ignorant men. Show me one god that wasn't made up by someone and I'll reconsider my position, and I mean physically drag him out into the light to be examined and tested on by everyone. But I know that's not going to happen, This is a matter of faith, faith and knowledge are mutually exclusive, they cannot coexist. You either know god is real, or you have faith. Pick one.

 

Your particular death cult was built on top of other older myths, built on even older myths, so on and so forth. Any reasoning, or lack thereof, behind your apophenia inspired delusion about ancient gods being real, is really beyond my interest.

 

Now, I suspect you are either deceiving yourself into believing this nonsense is real, or you are trying to lie to us by claiming you know something no one else does, about something, that if it is real, no one can know anything about. Either way you're trying to lie to someone, and that's not acceptable. I've come to value intellectual honesty, and you seem to be lacking, if for no other reason than that you claimed to know god is absolutely, truly, real, when you have no way of possibly knowing that, or proving it. Your empty assertions and flimsy belief are not impressive to me, I really don't care what you believe, but I'll stick with reality.

 

Ia! Cthulhu fhtagn! After all, he is just as real as any other god, I have a book that says so, it's a third hand published, second hand recording of a first hand experience. The first hand party, however, may not have actually existed, much like your Jesus.

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Paul,

 

You start your first post by asserting that God is real, and that only the ancient Greeks understood Him. What isn't stated is much more poignant though: evidently you also believe that you understand this God, because you then go on to explain how everyone else is wrong about Him. In other words, what you are really saying is "I'm the only person who really understands God!". This seems a tad presumptuous to me.

 

It's difficult to have a reasoned debate with someone who claims special knowledge which is alluded to vaguely but not shared, and for which the justification is never provided. This is to argue from an illusory position of authority. I'm not having it, and I suspect others here feel the same way.

 

I can appreciate that you are able to argue for your beliefs from your experiences. That's nice, but it isn't convincing to anyone but you. You have your experiences, and I can't judge them. But I also have my experiences, and they lead me to different conclusions from yours. Others here also have their experiences which lead them to different conclusions from mine. What this means is that all of us can argue from our experiences, and we will each find our own argument quite convincing, but now one else will. Arguments from experience are subjective by nature. You'll have to do better if you want to be convincing.

 

You also jump to a hell of a conclusion when you label everyone here as an atheist, and call atheism a religion. Would you please tell me what exactly this religion teaches? There are many people on these boards who profess to be atheists, but most of them disagree on most things. They pretty much only all agree on one thing: that they don't believe in God. This isn't even really a claim, let alone a religion.

 

If you want to have a real debate, I'm here. Honestly, I am. But we need to do this properly. Please start by defining precisely what you are referring to when you say "God". Once this has been done, we can go about discussing the existence or non-existence of this being if you so wish.

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I want you to debate with me, but it seems you haven't got the brains for it.

 

 

 
What is there to debate? YOU made a claim as to your unique understanding of reality. I concede the point; you made that claim. Is the debate over?
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You ask if I am still a Christian and still believe in Jesus. Yes, to both. 

 

I thank you for the direct answer.  Now I understand.

 

 

 

And of course, your atheism is a religion in itself, which you defend with a zeal as fierce as any medieval Christian's.

 

Atheism is a religion like "bald" is a hair color.  Look at the meaning of words.  Atheism is lack of religion.

 

 

 

 

If an idea has merit then I defend it using facts rather than zeal.  If the idea is false then I would expect it

 

to fail when tested.

 

 

 

I want you to debate with me, but it seems you haven't got the brains for it.

 

 

 

I will be happy to debate with you.  If you wish, we can agree to keep it formal and polite.  I will stick by

 

that rule if that is how you want the debate to run.

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That you simply believe this or that is not debatable. We must accept your statement that you believe. A logical, reasoned argument that presents evidence as to why you are correct would be open to debate. I'm certain, from much past experience, that you cannot do this, but feel free to take your shot. Many people here are willing to debate a debatable topic.

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Paul wrote...

 

"You ask where is my empirical evidence for these claims. I have to ask..."

 

PageofCupsNono.gif    No you don't have to ask anything!

 

If you want a proper debate, then abide by the rules of debate and don't answer a question with a question. 

 

Having opened this thread with certain claims, the onus is on you to present your objective evidence to support them.

 

Please do so.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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Paul wrote...

 

"I do hope you aren't going to use words as evidence. After all, you have all debunked the Bible by the same rule of thumb."

 

 

1.  How do you know any of us have done this?  Citation needed.

 

2.  How do you know all (5,307 members of this forum) of us have done this?  Citation needed.

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Paul, this intrigues me...

 

"Almighty God the Infinite Creator"

.

.

.

To which does the word, 'infinite' apply... the Creator or His Creation?

 

 

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You ask where is my 'empirical evidence' for these claims. I have to ask, where is your 'empirical evidence' that I am mad?.

 

 

Your question, "Where is our empirical evidence that you are mad" doesn't really show us any evidence for your claims. Just sayin. I don't think you're mad. You've just sprouted a new religious delusion.  

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