Guest immoralchristian Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. If the bible writters saw through a glass "darkly" then did they see God clearly or not? Is the bible a clear document of God or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezer Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 A little honest & open minded study & research of the bible from a historical critical perspective will reveal it is a collection of myths, legends & folklore. If a person only reads & explores one source of information for any topic or subject then their views, beliefs, & opinions are skewed. If all a believer ever reads is apologetics then obviously that is the view they will cling to because they have never turned the page & considered other legitimate possible interpretations of the bible & that is what all religions count on. Believe what we tell you & never question us. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest immoralchristian Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 A little honest & open minded study & research of the bible from a historical critical perspective will reveal it is a collection of myths, legends & folklore. If a person only reads & explores one source of information for any topic or subject then their views, beliefs, & opinions are skewed. If all a believer ever reads is apologetics then obviously that is the view they will cling to because they have never turned the page & considered other legitimate possible interpretations of the bible & that is what all religions count on. Believe what we tell you & never question us. I know that Geezer, I am wondering if my Christian brothers and sisters here are ready to accept that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EyesOpened Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 My former Christian self would have answered like this. "God let us see this way on purpose. He has a reason we are seeing Darkly and when the time is right he will bring light to give us the answers." Only God knows the whole truth and he will give us the knowledge when he thinks we are ready. That is how I use to see things. Now, I know the Bible is nothing more than another book of fiction. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest immoralchristian Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 My former Christian self would have answered like this. "God let us see this way on purpose. He has a reason we are seeing Darkly and when the time is right he will bring light to give us the answers." Only God knows the whole truth and he will give us the knowledge when he thinks we are ready. That is how I use to see things. Now, I know the Bible is nothing more than another book of fiction. Yeah it is and I learn from it like I do star trek. But you don't have to learn from it, freedom is to choose what you desire to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Whoever wrote that vs was possibly influenced by the Greek philosophers. 'Through a glad darkly' predates the bible era I think. I'll google it later 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest immoralchristian Posted August 4, 2015 Share Posted August 4, 2015 Whoever wrote that vs was possibly influenced by the Greek philosophers. 'Through a glad darkly' predates the bible era I think. I'll google it later I think thats what bart ehrman said too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 We are imperfect and our view of things now is imperfect and unclear. We know in part, but we do not see the big picture. When this imperfection is gone and we are face to face with God, we will see things are they really are and with much more understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted August 5, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted August 5, 2015 We are imperfect and our view of things now is imperfect and unclear. We know in part, but we do not see the big picture. When this imperfection is gone and we are face to face with God, we will see things are they really are and with much more understanding. That is the meaning of the verse. The question remains, does that imply that those who wrote the Bible were imperfect, unclear and lacking understanding? As they were mere humans and not "face to face with God," were they not imparting information from a perspective of ignorance and error? In order to claim the Bible is accurate, we must also claim its writers were accurate and somehow exempt from seeing through the glass darkly as it says all men are subject to. What gives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Faith, florduh. Faith. . . . Ironhorse doesn't need perfect understanding and knowledge... because he has faith. He doesn't need imperfect human understanding and knowledge... because he has faith. He doesn't need any understanding and knowledge... because he has faith. . . . Therefore, his faith is... perfect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 Men and Brethren! We can't throw stones at Ironhorse anymore, lest we prove ourselves to be Pharisees. Instead of stoning him, invite him to talk and explain. I've tried that in another thread, and by God, Ironhorse started talking. Sometimes diplomacy wins over bombardment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 God used people to write his message to the world. People are imperfect. We are all sinners. We miss the mark of perfection. The Bible is filled with stories of imperfect people. David is a good example. Paul called himself the chief of sinners. This being true does not mean they were wrong about what they wrote about the revelation they received from God. The message God wanted told is true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 The Bible is filled with stories of imperfect people. Imperfect people like Yahweh and Jesus. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted August 6, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted August 6, 2015 The message God wanted told is true. How do you know that? Because it says it's true? The writers of that message were "seeing through a glass darkly." It follows that they couldn't get everything right under that handicap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I did not say they got everything right, I said the message from God was right. I believe it because the universe and this earth and life conveys to me that there is a God. I believe the Bible and its message because, to me, it makes more sense than any other belief system. I'm a happy believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted August 6, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted August 6, 2015 I did not say they got everything right, I said the message from God was right. Uh, okay. Glad that logic works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I did not say they got everything right, I said the message from God was right. Do you just have faith that this is true because the Bible tells you to have faith that it's true - or do you have any objective evidence to support this claim? I believe it because the universe and this earth and life conveys to me that there is a God. Ironhorse's subjective belief is inadmissible as objective evidence for a God. I believe the Bible and its message because, to me, it makes more sense than any other belief system. Subjective beliefs about a belief system do not objective evidence make. I'm a happy believer. Yes. A perfectly happy one, because you do not let objectivity get in the way of your perfect faith! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted August 6, 2015 Share Posted August 6, 2015 I did not say they got everything right, I said the message from God was right. ---- Um the message they imperfectly wrote down ................ .......................................................................Sure. Makes perfect sense. Sorry imperfect dark glass sense. Sorry I'm making this up as I go along. Derp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 God used people to write his message to the world. People are imperfect. We are all sinners. We miss the mark of perfection. The Bible is filled with stories of imperfect people. David is a good example. Paul called himself the chief of sinners. This being true does not mean they were wrong about what they wrote about the revelation they received from God. The message God wanted told is true. Let's deconstruct this. P1 "God used people to write his message to the world." P2 "People are imperfect. We are all sinners. We miss the mark of perfection. The Bible is filled with stories of imperfect people. David is a good example. Paul called himself the chief of sinners." C1 "[P2] being true does not mean they were wrong about what they wrote…" (from P2) P3 "[They] received revelation from God." P4 "The message God wanted told is true." Four premises and one near-tautology conclusion dealing with only one of the premises. Anyone could draw the following alternate conclusions from P2, which I submit has the same weight as Ironhorse's C1: C1 (alternative #1): [P2] being true does not mean they were correct about what they wrote…" (from P2), or C1 (alternative #2: [P2] being true does has nothing to do with whether the authors of the Bible were wrong or correct in what they wrote..." (from P2), Put another was C1 is basically a meaningless conclusion, a-non-sequitur. So, we have four unsupported mere assertions and one meaningless and irrelevant conclusion. At least Ironhorse is writing his own words and making his own argument. That's a good thing and I'm glad to see it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justus Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 A little honest & open minded study & research of the bible from a historical critical perspective will reveal it is a collection of myths, legends & folklore. If a person only reads & explores one source of information for any topic or subject then their views, beliefs, & opinions are skewed. You exactly right about limited input, or inquiry of information skewing the opinion of people. In the passage of 1 Corinthians 13:1, in which the OP cited, in verse 6 it is written, 'Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;' However, views, beliefs and opinions do not constitute truth, the truth can even be skewed by facts and evidence which are one sided. Take the passage regarding the stars in Genesis, verse 16-17 "....he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth," Now in Isaiah 13:10 it is written, "For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: So here is a pic from the NASA moon landing, and here is one from the NASA website for the New Horizons image of Pluto : https://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/global-mosaic-of-pluto-in-true-color So where are the celestial lights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 It's a conspiracy I tell 'ya! Man never landed on the moon! The pictures prove it! Justus: There is a simple answer to your question which involves why the stars and other celestial objects did not show up in those pictures. To test your research skills, let's see if you can find out why. And here's a hint: Stars re not visible in the sky when the sun is above the horizon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justus Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 So the direct light from the sun being refracted by the earth's atmosphere isn't the reason that the celestial lights can't be seen during the daytime, being that time when the we are facing the direct sunlight? However, in the images, the direction of the images photographed are in the opposition direction of the sun, just as when one views the expanse during the nighttime hours on earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 So the direct light from the sun being refracted by the earth's atmosphere isn't the reason that the celestial lights can't be seen during the daytime, being that time when the we are facing the direct sunlight? However, in the images, the direction of the images photographed are in the opposition direction of the sun, just as when one views the expanse during the nighttime hours on earth. The Professor speaks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justus Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 The Professor speaks. Sorry my question offends you, I was merely trying to either substantiate or disprove what I was told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted August 7, 2015 Super Moderator Share Posted August 7, 2015 ...the truth can even be skewed by facts and evidence which are one sided. How can facts detract from the truth? Facts, by definition, are true. Facts and evidence don't take sides. It is when facts conflict with a belief that we hear the silly accusation that the facts or evidence are "one sided" as if there is a viable alternative to factual information. Fact: We went to the moon. A misunderstanding of scientific facts leads some to deny that accomplishment. Luckily, in addition to the misguided conspiracy websites there are plenty of resources available where any misgivings or knowledge gaps are clearly addressed by factual information. Seek them out if you doubt the moon landing or that Elvis is really dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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