...to Become A Believer?

[Geezer]

As other's have noted playing hide and seek ain't gonna cut it. If God, or whatever we are calling God, actually exists, then "IT" will have to stop hiding and reveal ITSELF to the world. And if "It" wants to be worshipped it will have to provide a long list of good reasons. And "It" is going to have to clean up its act too. No hell, no torture, no throwing tantrums, etc. Got to stop all that nonsense.

[mwc]

     All it would take for me to believe would be a book of stories and testimony.  Written long ago by any number of people that I couldn't possible know.  Then, along with that book, it would take a lot of tradition handed down for a long, long time.  Thousands of years before I was born.  But, I guess more than that, it would take people I trust telling me that all these things are true.  Taking me to people they trust and people they tell me are really authorities on all these things to really re-enforce what they have said.  And, whether I realize it or not, all these things seem not just plausible but probable to me.  And my belief is born.

 

          mwc

[Guest sylensikeelyoo]

All it would take for me to believe would be a book of stories and testimony.  Written long ago by any number of people that I couldn't possible know.  Then, along with that book, it would take a lot of tradition handed down for a long, long time.  Thousands of years before I was born.  But, I guess more than that, it would take people I trust telling me that all these things are true.  Taking me to people they trust and people they tell me are really authorities on all these things to really re-enforce what they have said.  And, whether I realize it or not, all these things seem not just plausible but probable to me.  And my belief is born.

 

          mwc

Yeah that and I would also need to be about six or so. Oh and if you tell me something really really bad is going to happen to me if I don't believe you, that should seal the deal further, and probably close my mind as an adult to opposing ideas.

[JCW]

A better question is what did it take to make YOU believe. To lay out a particular set of guidelines is to restrict sources of evidence that we may not even be aware of and is entirely the wrong approach. We need to look at whatever evidence can be provided and evaluate it on a case by case basest. If you can make a logically sound case for why your evidence demonstrates the Christian God to be true beyond a reasonable doubt, then I will believe. As others have said, this isn't necessarily sufficient reason to worship and love this god. If the god of the islamic extremists existed, would you worship him? Wouldn't this be a hateful, sadistic, misogynistic, immature, brutish fiend of a god and unworthy of respect. The god that most evangelicals believe is actually no better then this monster when you accept the atrocities of the Old Testament as an accurate representation of his character and the most popular interpretation of hell as physical place of eternal torment created for the infinite suffering of all who have the misfortune to not find good reason to believe in him in this life. But with a more palatable interpretation and sufficient reason, I would happily rededicate my entire being to Christ in love and worship. 

[sdelsolray]

A better question is what did it take to make YOU believe. To lay out a particular set of guidelines is to restrict sources of evidence that we may not even be aware of and is entirely the wrong approach. We need to look at whatever evidence can be provided and evaluate it on a case by case basest. If you can make a logically sound case for why your evidence demonstrates the Christian God to be true beyond a reasonable doubt, then I will believe. As others have said, this isn't necessarily sufficient reason to worship and love this god. If the god of the islamic extremists existed, would you worship him? Wouldn't this be a hateful, sadistic, misogynistic, immature, brutish fiend of a god and unworthy of respect. The god that most evangelicals believe is actually no better then this monster when you accept the atrocities of the Old Testament as an accurate representation of his character and the most popular interpretation of hell as physical place of eternal torment created for the infinite suffering of all who have the misfortune to not find good reason to believe in him in this life. But with a more palatable interpretation and sufficient reason, I would happily rededicate my entire being to Christ in love and worship. 

 

In earlier threads over the past 18 months, several of us have asked Ironhorse why he believes in his particular set of gods and related religious dogma.  Like many theists, this is not a question he is prepared to answer, mostly because he has never pondered the question before in an intellectually honest manner.  To summarize this previous dialog, and at the risk of being too succinct, here are the major points observed:

 

1)  Ironhorse refuses to acknowledge the length, depth and intensity of the Christian religious indoctrination he received as a child (and since) from trusted adults (Ironhorse grew up in the Deep South USA and his father was a practicing Baptist minister).

 

2)  Ironhorse refuses to acknowledge the length, depth and intensity of the constant and currant peer pressure to adhere to certain religious precepts and doctrine (e.g., his wife's brother is a Minister, he earned a partial living from a Christian coffee house, he finds emotional satisfaction with sly proselytizing, etc.).

 

3)  Ironhorse claims to have challenged these influences when a young adult with application of skepticism and critical thinking.  Yet, he demonstrates no ability to think rationally about these influences in his posts on this forum.  None whatsoever.  For example, although claiming to have studied the biological theory of evolution, his demonstrated knowledge of the theory is abysmal and is at less that a 3rd grade level (i.e., if we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?).

 

4)  Ironhorse frequently runs away from the posts he makes.  He ignores questions.  He lies.  He cuts and pastes from disingenuous creationist websites.  After the disingenuousness and fallacies are pointed out to him, he runs away only to post again from the same sources in a different thread.  He invokes passive-aggressiveness.  He's very lazy.  He uses logical fallacies like they were candy.  Of course, all of this is simply evidence of how he is internally addressing the cognitive dissonance that is running rampant within his brain.

 

Nevertheless, Ironhorse has provided his "reasons" as to why he believes.  They are as follows:

 

1)  He has religious faith (; i.e., belief without evidence)

 

2)  The complexity of the universe requires the existence of his sky fairies; and

 

3)  Believing makes the most sense.

 

He may add to this list in the future.  But you are dealing with someone who is intellectually dishonest with himself, is shallow, myopic and narrow, and who is too much of a coward to consider anything else.

[Guest sylensikeelyoo]

 

A better question is what did it take to make YOU believe. To lay out a particular set of guidelines is to restrict sources of evidence that we may not even be aware of and is entirely the wrong approach. We need to look at whatever evidence can be provided and evaluate it on a case by case basest. If you can make a logically sound case for why your evidence demonstrates the Christian God to be true beyond a reasonable doubt, then I will believe. As others have said, this isn't necessarily sufficient reason to worship and love this god. If the god of the islamic extremists existed, would you worship him? Wouldn't this be a hateful, sadistic, misogynistic, immature, brutish fiend of a god and unworthy of respect. The god that most evangelicals believe is actually no better then this monster when you accept the atrocities of the Old Testament as an accurate representation of his character and the most popular interpretation of hell as physical place of eternal torment created for the infinite suffering of all who have the misfortune to not find good reason to believe in him in this life. But with a more palatable interpretation and sufficient reason, I would happily rededicate my entire being to Christ in love and worship.

 

 

In earlier threads over the past 18 months, several of us have asked Ironhorse why he believes in his particular set of gods and related religious dogma.  Like many theists, this is not a question he is prepared to answer, mostly because he has never pondered the question before in an intellectually honest manner.  To summarize this previous dialog, and at the risk of being too succinct, here are the major points observed:

 

1)  Ironhorse refuses to acknowledge the length, depth and intensity of the Christian religious indoctrination he received as a child (and since) from trusted adults (Ironhorse grew up in the Deep South USA and his father was a practicing Baptist minister).

 

2)  Ironhorse refuses to acknowledge the length, depth and intensity of the constant and currant peer pressure to adhere to certain religious precepts and doctrine (e.g., his wife's brother is a Minister, he earned a partial living from a Christian coffee house, he finds emotional satisfaction with sly proselytizing, etc.).

 

3)  Ironhorse claims to have challenged these influences when a young adult with application of skepticism and critical thinking.  Yet, he demonstrates no ability to think rationally about these influences in his posts on this forum.  None whatsoever.  For example, although claiming to have studied the biological theory of evolution, his demonstrated knowledge of the theory is abysmal and is at less that a 3rd grade level (i.e., if we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?).

 

4)  Ironhorse frequently runs away from the posts he makes.  He ignores questions.  He lies.  He cuts and pastes from disingenuous creationist websites.  After the disingenuousness and fallacies are pointed out to him, he runs away only to post again from the same sources in a different thread.  He invokes passive-aggressiveness.  He's very lazy.  He uses logical fallacies like they were candy.  Of course, all of this is simply evidence of how he is internally addressing the cognitive dissonance that is running rampant within his brain.

 

Nevertheless, Ironhorse has provided his "reasons" as to why he believes.  They are as follows:

 

1)  He has religious faith (; i.e., belief without evidence)

 

2)  The complexity of the universe requires the existence of his sky fairies; and

 

3)  Believing makes the most sense.

 

He may add to this list in the future.  But you are dealing with someone who is intellectually dishonest with himself, is shallow, myopic and narrow, and who is too much of a coward to consider anything else.

 

*mic drops*

[duderonomy]

I'd like to go on record that I've stuck up for Ironhorse and tried to get him to discuss Christianity with us for the last time, so help me FSM. 

 

A better question might have been what made us Ex-Christians believe when we did believe. Of course, if he asked that he'd get the answers and the attendant reasons why we now know that we were wrong, and he might see himself a little too closely. Hell, if he's for real, he must have already.

If he had anything and knew it, he'd discuss. If he's a poe, he must be a very bored fellow. If he's a troll, more power to him; his kind of Christianity is the most prevalent, and allows those of us who wish to participate more reasons to speak to the lurkers through his posts.

[JCW]

question for ironhorse, have you read the extimonies from former believers on here or watched some of the ones on youtube such as evid3nce, prplfox or finite atticus. 

[midniterider]

What would be required to persuade you to become a believer?

 

What you offering?

[mymistake]

 

What would be required to persuade you to become a believer?

 

What you offering?

 

 

 

How about a prayer?  Or even two prayers?  Would you come back to Jesus if a Christian prays for you three times?

[Margee]

As other's have noted playing hide and seek ain't gonna cut it. If God, or whatever we are calling God, actually exists, then "IT" will have to stop hiding and reveal ITSELF to the world. And if "It" wants to be worshipped it will have to provide a long list of good reasons. And "It" is going to have to clean up its act too. No hell, no torture, no throwing tantrums, etc. Got to stop all that nonsense.

LOVE this Geezer!! 

[Guest sylensikeelyoo]

 

As other's have noted playing hide and seek ain't gonna cut it. If God, or whatever we are calling God, actually exists, then "IT" will have to stop hiding and reveal ITSELF to the world. And if "It" wants to be worshipped it will have to provide a long list of good reasons. And "It" is going to have to clean up its act too. No hell, no torture, no throwing tantrums, etc. Got to stop all that nonsense.

 

LOVE this Geezer!! 

Agreed. But Geezer is much more generous than I. I say that even if said deity could provide a long list of compelling reasons as to why I should worship him/her, just the notion of requiring my devotion is enough to render the entire list null and void....at least for me.

[♦ ficino ♦]

I'm tellin' ya,

 

Dude's a TROLL

[florduh]

I'm tellin' ya,

 

Dude's a TROLL

Yes, but he keeps things from getting too dull around here. Sometimes I wonder if it's just a well done atheist Poe exercise.

[Guest sylensikeelyoo]

 

I'm tellin' ya,

Dude's a TROLL

 

Yes, but he keeps things from getting too dull around here. Sometimes I wonder if it's just a well done atheist Poe exercise.

If that's the case, hats off to him indeed.

[bornagainathiest]

Agree Florduh!

 

I've sometimes wondered if he's actually playing some kind of game with us.

 

"How many irate responses I can generate from the Ex-C's, with as little effort as possible?" 

 

I mean, just look at how 'much' work he had to put into this thread! 

 

1.  Click on the 'Start New Topic' box.

2.  Enter the title. (24 keystrokes)

3.  Type eleven (11) words using sixty (60) keystrokes.

4.  Post it.

5.  Edit it one minute later.

6.  Sit back and laugh at us!

.

.

.

I'm with Ficino on this.

If this isn't classic trolling, I don't know what is!

 

 

[midniterider]

 

 

What would be required to persuade you to become a believer?

 

What you offering?

 

 

 

How about a prayer?  Or even two prayers?  Would you come back to Jesus if a Christian prays for you three times?

 

 

Drop $100 into my paypal account and I'll worship Jesus for 1 day.

[Guest Furball]

 

 

I've sometimes wondered if he's actually playing some kind of game with us.

 

"How many irate responses I can generate from the Ex-C's, with as little effort as possible?" 

 

 

 

I have wondered about that with all the christians on here. I think they are just crazy people coming on here to push our buttons. 

 

 

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1 peter 3:15

 

Other than hearing that they believe the christian religion because it "feels right" or "gives them comfort," I have yet to see them obey this verse and give a real answer as to why they believe. The fact that they never give a real answer is because I suspect they are not real believers, but only come on here for entertainment purposes only to stir the ex-c pot. 

[Guest Furball]

We WERE believers once. Many of us believed for decades. We were preachers, teachers, Biblical scholars, missionaries and tithing church goers. Despite what most current Christian visitors to this site think, we are not a bunch of ignorant, rebellious heathens who left the religion for fun; it was a painful realization that it was all a load of meadow muffins all along.

 

We know what it takes to believe. Do you know what it takes to leave? It's not easy, but it becomes necessary once you learn enough and start to think rather than seek the comfort of make believe.

 

This post should be pinned on the front page of the website. As usual florduh, your post hits the bullseye. I am just sorry I can't upvote this post 50 times. 

[EyesOpened]

 

I'm tellin' ya,

Dude's a TROLL

 

Yes, but he keeps things from getting too dull around here. Sometimes I wonder if it's just a well done atheist Poe exercise.

I often thought that same thing florduh.

[bdp]

"What would be required to persuade you to become a believer?"

 

It can't be done - give it up ponyboy.

[amateur]

Wait, I just thought of what it would take for me to be a believer again.

 

It would take my gathering a multitude of minions together to send me millions of dollars and I'd buy everything I wanted, including a personal plane.  And my minions would hang on my every word and buy my nonsense books.

 

Then I'd believe.  In money.

[midniterider]

Wait, I just thought of what it would take for me to be a believer again.

 

It would take my gathering a multitude of minions together to send me millions of dollars and I'd buy everything I wanted, including a personal plane.  And my minions would hang on my every word and buy my nonsense books.

 

Then I'd believe.  In money.

 

I thought you were gonna say, "Then I'd be Joel Osteen" 

[StillLooking]

I wanted to believe desperately. Even sometimes I still want to believe but unfortunately my brain doesn't cooperate. I need bible god to communicate with me face to face to believe it exists.

Plus, in order to worship and praise bible god (if it exists) I need a strong valid answer from it why an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent god doesn't prevent suffering in this world. (Don't give me bull**** answer such as original sin or free will)

[sdelsolray]

Not surprisingly, Pewter Jackass appears to have abandoned this thread.