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Why? Is This Even Remotely Ethical?


Ravenstar

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Okay.. I'm all for science and the myriad ways and methods of discovery, but this creeps me out... does this thing have consciousness? How many are there? What are the implications here?

 

http://www.iflscience.com/brain/human-brain-grown-lab-most-complete-yet 

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Broken link?  Page not found.

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it's there   http://www.iflscience.com/brain/human-brain-grown-lab-most-complete-yet

 

or search the page thingy when you get there...  'human brain'

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At this point, no the brain is not "conscious." The brain does not have a circulatory system therefore the neurons are not able to engage in complex physiological processes that are thought to be the root consciousness. Furthermore, the brain is not receiving any sensory information. Even if it's neurons could engage in complex neuro physiology "consciousness" would not occur because there would be no input for the brain to process. However, as our capabilities in this arena improve, moral and ethical issues very well may occur.

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i am not a very "science" person,,,,,

 

growing a brain without sensory "receivers", would it not be just an organic computer?

 

also i am all for stem cells development and such, so growing a brain in a lab maybe for futir medical benefits and such, i am all for it, and i may not be aware of other "ethical and moral" implications in the future development

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At this point, no the brain is not "conscious." The brain does not have a circulatory system therefore the neurons are not able to engage in complex physiological processes that are thought to be the root consciousness. Furthermore, the brain is not receiving any sensory information. Even if it's neurons could engage in complex neuro physiology "consciousness" would not occur because there would be no input for the brain to process. However, as our capabilities in this arena improve, moral and ethical issues very well may occur.

Oh... okay, thanks for that. The idea of a brain being conscious without sensory input... is ...disturbing.

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At this point, no the brain is not "conscious." The brain does not have a circulatory system therefore the neurons are not able to engage in complex physiological processes that are thought to be the root consciousness. Furthermore, the brain is not receiving any sensory information. Even if it's neurons could engage in complex neuro physiology "consciousness" would not occur because there would be no input for the brain to process. However, as our capabilities in this arena improve, moral and ethical issues very well may occur.

Oh... okay, thanks for that. The idea of a brain being conscious without sensory input... is ...disturbing.

 

 

I suppose to be conscious you would have to be conscious 'of' something.

 

Could you elaborate more on this: "complex physiological processes that are thought to be the root consciousness"  - I have an interest in what consciousness might be.

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Oh... okay, thanks for that. The idea of a brain being conscious without sensory input... is ...disturbing.

 

 

Dream state?

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Oh... okay, thanks for that. The idea of a brain being conscious without sensory input... is ...disturbing.

 

 

Dream state?

 

I'm not sure what it would "dream" about if it never had any sensory input.

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At this point, no the brain is not "conscious." The brain does not have a circulatory system therefore the neurons are not able to engage in complex physiological processes that are thought to be the root consciousness. Furthermore, the brain is not receiving any sensory information. Even if it's neurons could engage in complex neuro physiology "consciousness" would not occur because there would be no input for the brain to process. However, as our capabilities in this arena improve, moral and ethical issues very well may occur.

Oh... okay, thanks for that. The idea of a brain being conscious without sensory input... is ...disturbing.

I suppose to be conscious you would have to be conscious 'of' something.

 

Could you elaborate more on this: "complex physiological processes that are thought to be the root consciousness" - I have an interest in what consciousness might be.

The fundamental processes that occur within neurons revolve around the cells producing electrical potentials. This is done by proteins that basically act as pumps for ions (AKA electrolytes). The default state for these cells is what is known as a polarised state. That is to say the membrane potential is negative. The neuron then can undergo depolarisation where a stimulus or chemical change causes protein channels to open that allow for a flood of ions to enter the neuron. This depolarisation causes many things to occur within the neuron to include causing the neuron to release chemicals that act on other neurons (neurotransmitters).

 

I can actually get quite detailed in how this process works and particularly how certain drugs and toxins alter this process and cause different effects. Let me know if you want me to go into details and I'll try to elaborate.

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Hey thanks. I was just interested in the when or where we might deem something to be alive. And what consciousness is. The thead popped up while i was thinking of some zen angle on ego. Where does the brain start being a person vs just a machine. Who is the "I" ?

I'm pretty handy with electronic knowledge but suck at chemistry. Feel free to continue, it's an interesting experiment with this tiny brain.

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Oh... okay, thanks for that. The idea of a brain being conscious without sensory input... is ...disturbing.

 

 

Dream state?

 

I'm not sure what it would "dream" about if it never had any sensory input.

 

 

Loneliness..haha

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Hey thanks. I was just interested in the when or where we might deem something to be alive. And what consciousness is. The thead popped up while i was thinking of some zen angle on ego. Where does the brain start being a person vs just a machine. Who is the "I" ?

 

I'm pretty handy with electronic knowledge but suck at chemistry. Feel free to continue, it's an interesting experiment with this tiny brain.

I am not sure we have an incredibly robust way of defining "consciousness" that works in every conceivable provincial situation but perhaps there are a few basic principles that while not exactly able to describe consciousness, are certainly necessary for consciousness. In other words, necessary but not the complete picture. The one thing that I always look at is the ability for something to take in information from it's surroundings, process that information in some way, then respond. It is this unique ability to take information in and react to this information that really points to an important component of consciousness. For example, a rock on the road that is in the path of an oncoming vehicle, assuming it is not being acted on by other forces, it will just get run over. However, a "conscious" person, assuming the information about the approaching car makes it into the person's "wet ware" will respond to the oncoming vehicle in ways that most of us would agree are novel when compared to the rock.

 

I understand that we can make this highly nuanced and go down a path of semantics that is simply not going to drive the discussion toward anything productive, I think most of us are going to be okay to some degree with the basics of what was outlined above?

 

If we are generally okay with that, then our current understanding of neurophysiology has some important things to say about consciousness. 

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Hey thanks. I was just interested in the when or where we might deem something to be alive. And what consciousness is. The thead popped up while i was thinking of some zen angle on ego. Where does the brain start being a person vs just a machine. Who is the "I" ?

 

I'm pretty handy with electronic knowledge but suck at chemistry. Feel free to continue, it's an interesting experiment with this tiny brain.

I am not sure we have an incredibly robust way of defining "consciousness" that works in every conceivable provincial situation but perhaps there are a few basic principles that while not exactly able to describe consciousness, are certainly necessary for consciousness. In other words, necessary but not the complete picture. The one thing that I always look at is the ability for something to take in information from it's surroundings, process that information in some way, then respond. It is this unique ability to take information in and react to this information that really points to an important component of consciousness. For example, a rock on the road that is in the path of an oncoming vehicle, assuming it is not being acted on by other forces, it will just get run over. However, a "conscious" person, assuming the information about the approaching car makes it into the person's "wet ware" will respond to the oncoming vehicle in ways that most of us would agree are novel when compared to the rock.

 

I understand that we can make this highly nuanced and go down a path of semantics that is simply not going to drive the discussion toward anything productive, I think most of us are going to be okay to some degree with the basics of what was outlined above?

 

If we are generally okay with that, then our current understanding of neurophysiology has some important things to say about consciousness. 

 

 

Yes, consciousness would need to include the ability to accept sensory input, process it and react if need be. So what does neurophysiology have to say about self-awareness?

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Hey thanks. I was just interested in the when or where we might deem something to be alive. And what consciousness is. The thead popped up while i was thinking of some zen angle on ego. Where does the brain start being a person vs just a machine. Who is the "I" ?

 

I'm pretty handy with electronic knowledge but suck at chemistry. Feel free to continue, it's an interesting experiment with this tiny brain.

I am not sure we have an incredibly robust way of defining "consciousness" that works in every conceivable provincial situation but perhaps there are a few basic principles that while not exactly able to describe consciousness, are certainly necessary for consciousness. In other words, necessary but not the complete picture. The one thing that I always look at is the ability for something to take in information from it's surroundings, process that information in some way, then respond. It is this unique ability to take information in and react to this information that really points to an important component of consciousness. For example, a rock on the road that is in the path of an oncoming vehicle, assuming it is not being acted on by other forces, it will just get run over. However, a "conscious" person, assuming the information about the approaching car makes it into the person's "wet ware" will respond to the oncoming vehicle in ways that most of us would agree are novel when compared to the rock.

 

I understand that we can make this highly nuanced and go down a path of semantics that is simply not going to drive the discussion toward anything productive, I think most of us are going to be okay to some degree with the basics of what was outlined above?

 

If we are generally okay with that, then our current understanding of neurophysiology has some important things to say about consciousness. 

 

 

I'm ok with this notion of consciousness, depending on what is meant by "process the information". I would say that to be conscious, an organism needs to be able to take in information, process the information, respond and be aware that this is happening. Another key component may be the ability to choose how to respond. Even this may be insufficient as a definition, however.

 

Not trying to derail, just trying to clarify.

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Hey thanks. I was just interested in the when or where we might deem something to be alive. And what consciousness is. The thead popped up while i was thinking of some zen angle on ego. Where does the brain start being a person vs just a machine. Who is the "I" ?

 

I'm pretty handy with electronic knowledge but suck at chemistry. Feel free to continue, it's an interesting experiment with this tiny brain.

I am not sure we have an incredibly robust way of defining "consciousness" that works in every conceivable provincial situation but perhaps there are a few basic principles that while not exactly able to describe consciousness, are certainly necessary for consciousness. In other words, necessary but not the complete picture. The one thing that I always look at is the ability for something to take in information from it's surroundings, process that information in some way, then respond. It is this unique ability to take information in and react to this information that really points to an important component of consciousness. For example, a rock on the road that is in the path of an oncoming vehicle, assuming it is not being acted on by other forces, it will just get run over. However, a "conscious" person, assuming the information about the approaching car makes it into the person's "wet ware" will respond to the oncoming vehicle in ways that most of us would agree are novel when compared to the rock.

 

I understand that we can make this highly nuanced and go down a path of semantics that is simply not going to drive the discussion toward anything productive, I think most of us are going to be okay to some degree with the basics of what was outlined above?

 

If we are generally okay with that, then our current understanding of neurophysiology has some important things to say about consciousness. 

 

 

I'm ok with this notion of consciousness, depending on what is meant by "process the information". I would say that to be conscious, an organism needs to be able to take in information, process the information, respond and be aware that this is happening. Another key component may be the ability to choose how to respond. Even this may be insufficient as a definition, however.

 

Not trying to derail, just trying to clarify.

 

 

Yep, awareness would be the key component of consciousness.

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What exactly is awareness and can we robustly separate the definition of consciousness and awareness without getting too circular in our definitions? This is why I steered away from such terminology in my post. Also, I want to continue to emphasise the point I made earlier. I am not talking about a complete definition of consciousness only a necessary component. Before we can even entertain concepts like sense of self, I believe more basic concepts need to be discussed?

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What exactly is awareness and can we robustly separate the definition of consciousness and awareness without getting too circular in our definitions? This is why I steered away from such terminology in my post. Also, I want to continue to emphasise the point I made earlier. I am not talking about a complete definition of consciousness only a necessary component. Before we can even entertain concepts like sense of self, I believe more basic concepts need to be discussed?

 

Fair enough. You're right that "awareness" is also a bit vague. That's why I included the addendum about a choice of how to respond. I think this is key. But perhaps this is beside the point. I'm ok with carrying on for now, leaving consciousness somewhat poorly defined.

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Okay, this will not satisfy all questions but maybe give us a foundation to build upon. To be upfront; however, we do not have a complete and robust theory of the "mind," but as stated, we can begin to describe the fundamental processes from which the mind appears to emerge. I wonder if the discussion should be a separate thread as not to disrespect the intent of Ravenstar?

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I'm less sympathetic to a brain grown in the laboratory that has no sensory input.  However perhaps it would bother me if such things were used for something other than research.  If there was an industrial application, say they were used in a series to form a biological computer and we were starting to make great quantities of them I would get squeamish and call for the brakes until the ethics can be investigated.

 

Works of fiction have often explored the possibility of keeping somebody alive when they are nothing but a severed head.  Ethically this would be much worse that growing a brain because the person would have their memories and know exactly what they have lost.  Okay thinking about this gives me the creeps.

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Okay, this will not satisfy all questions but maybe give us a foundation to build upon. To be upfront; however, we do not have a complete and robust theory of the "mind," but as stated, we can begin to describe the fundamental processes from which the mind appears to emerge. I wonder if the discussion should be a separate thread as not to disrespect the intent of Ravenstar?

 

Well, yes, this thread was about the tiny brain being grown and it's ethical implications, not really general brain functioning.

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Human brains aren't just built by building, they're also built by destruction and feedback loops. Babies are born with a lot of neurons running willy-nilly all over the place. The ones that don't get used die. (Actually, that process may start in the womb, I'm not sure. I think it's just easier to get a variety of stimulus with which to construct a brain/body connection after birth.) We gain motor skills by killing off the connections that aren't useful. Human consciousness is created by interaction with the environment. Without that feedback loop, I have no idea if a brain can develop a sense of self.

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  • 2 weeks later...

^^ That's an interesting concept

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