Defending Hell

[Thumbelina]

 

Hell is not eternal, God is. His presence is a consuming fire (you may look up the texts if you wish) when God unveils Himself completely then all who do wickedly will be consumed/destroyed. Every man will be awarded based on their works; since no man is inherently immortal then their wicked works are not everlasting, therefore they can't burn forever. That's such an evil teaching that makes God a monster!

No offense Thumb but God really needs to tell us himself. Otherwise it's just hearsay and neither I nor Judge Judy accept hearsay.The bible is hearsay.

 

 

Y'all don't listen, He's got the cure for rabies but ya rejecting the inoculation! So inoculated people gotta tell what He did for them & encourage others to partake of the cure.

[Thumbelina]

 

"No contradictions, eh? Then what happened at Easter?"

 

 

Jesus rose from the dead on that Sunday.

[Thumbelina]

 

God is the fire, no one can quench Him. See Isaiah 33:14-15. The righteous can walk in the fire but the wicked will be consumed. The three Hebrew boys in the fiery furnace described in Daniel was a sort of example of this. They did not die or smell of smoke but the other people who threw them in died. Jesus came & covered those three boys because of their faith.

Bah, thats old testament...it's obsolete. Haha

 

 

No it's not, Jezebel is mentioned in the NT, if the OT were obsolete how would you know about her?

[Thumbelina]

 

God does not let anything thwart His plans, creating humans whom he foreknew would nail him to a tree, naked as a jaybird, did not deter Him in the least. God's wrath is not fickle like humans', it's consequential & it is just/right. Yes, the bible says in times of ignorance God winks & that if we don't see certain sins (not willful blindness, actual ignorance), then He won't hold people responsible for those. God did not make Pharaoh sin, Pharaoh CHOSE to sin but God permitted/willed all the events. When God initiates contact with us we are either hardened or softened (Hebrews 3:15), but it's our choice!

 

Yeah, if I thought God was like how you guys think He is I probably would join you but I see Him as loving and perfect.

 

 

 

I don't think you know what choice means... Yahweh did make pharaoh sin, by hardening his hart, intentionally, actively, god made pharaohs heart hard... That's what he did... Pharaoh had no choice... How are you not understanding that? Here, take off your god glasses and reconsider what I said, reconsider what exactly your god has supposedly done according to your myths. Then come back and tell us how loving and perfect he is... Oh who am I kidding, that's never going to happen is it?...

 

You do know there is absolutely no evidence to support any of the claims made by your religion right? I see your god exactly how he is presented by your religions lore, I just don't ignore any of the fucked up shit he's done, or let happen, and is ultimately responsible for. Because he kicked everything off... Knowing... Exactly... What... Would... Happen... But don't be confused, I don't actually believe your god has done anything, because I don't believe he exists. I'm just entertaining the idea in order to continue this, whatever this is.

 

But for the love of all that's unholy, I need to know what you are going to use when Jesus let's you inside him... My unsatisfied curiosity is driving me mad... Or maybe that's just Dread Lord Cthulhu stirring in his slumber...

 

 

 

 

See my later post about choice.

[Thumbelina]

No contradictions?

You are willfully ignorant then, as there are so many it will make your head spin if you read a good textual critic who actually knows what the bible is saying in all of the original languages.

Even in English it can't be reconciled.

The crucifixion. The resurrection. The exodus. Creation.

Let's just start with those. Read them again and watch the timelines and multiple parties involved.

Wasting my breath on you.

Read Ehrman if you dare

Yeah, to those who walk by sight it's nonsense but the bible truly is an amazing book.

[Thumbelina]

 

Hope this summer's been good to you-- you garden, right?

 

Yup.  We've had a lot of rain but also a lot of warm and sunny days, so most of the garden's doing okay.

 

 

 

 

That's nice.

 

 

 

About two years ago my dad came in the pouring rain to plant some "okra" seeds that he found on his job site. He planted them & those plants grew really, really tall and lo and behold, his okras turned out to be huge sunflowers It's the running joke in the family lately. We refer to his sunflowers as "okras"

 

 

 

Then last year he planted cucumbers and these huge things like green anacondas grew up more than the cucumbers and I was scared of them because well, they looked like anacondas. My parents said they knew what they were and my mother cooked them and I loved it. I just did a Google search and I think it's called Trombocino.

[Thumbelina]

Whats the point with freedom of choice (and subsequently getting mad at people using it) IF man is supposed to be perfect and upright? This seems like an arbitrary drama. What were the Adam and Eve's choices or possibilities, what use is this free will for? Is it mainly only evil except when you choose between eating apples or oranges for breakfast?

 

How can man be perfect and upright and yet sin ? In the initial state. How is the fall even possible with these starting factors? IF that was meant to be then by extension arent we doing things the right way?

 

 

 

God's wrath is more of a holy pity/pathos (Ezekiel 18:23), it's righteous indignation, but He knew that He would eventually have a human race to enjoy eternity with. 1/3 of the angels will be destroyed in hell but he still has 2/3 of them to share eternity with. As I said previously, God is love and love is active, He creates because of love & love has to have an object. God is a social being. Fear is of the devil and God has no fear so He did not let rebellious created beings deter Him from doing what He wills. He can recreate those who want-and eventually choose- to live eternally. Disobeying His perfect rules is a choice & it's a choice to die (Romans 6:23).

 

You said it, man was upright and he fell; do you fall if you're lying flat on the ground? Again I say, the choice to sin/disobey God was a choice to live or not. God CANNOT give a created being eternal life if they don't want it and since a CREATED being cannot choose to live before it's created then God has to give them that choice AFTER they're created, hence the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This planet failed (see parable of the lost sheep) and Satan and every single being that gives- or would give -him their allegiance will be choosing to share his fate of oblivion/eventual non existence. Mankind is in a fallen state & Jesus was given to pick us up so we can be upright again. Humans can be altruistic at times because we were made in God's image but generally we're selfish, the antithesis of God's character. God wants to recreate us into His image, a COMPLETE change, we need to be consistently holy.

[florduh]

Long time, Thumbelina. Mud wrestling season over already?

[Thumbelina]

Hello Pops!!!! You know I can't stay away all the time. I miss you guys, I have a soft spot in my heart for y'all. I was thinking about you awhile ago. Hope you're alright? How's Par? You guys aren't getting any younger you know so yes, I do worry about you.

[florduh]

True, none of us are getting any younger but you must understand that in context. 

[Thumbelina]

True, none of us are getting any younger but you must understand that in context. 

... but like I always ask Par: ... and then what? Becoming a fossil doesn't give any type of hope.

[florduh]

Fossil? Don't you know that fossils are just a trick of Satan to get us to believe in evolution?

[mymistake]

 

Whats the point with freedom of choice (and subsequently getting mad at people using it) IF man is supposed to be perfect and upright? This seems like an arbitrary drama. What were the Adam and Eve's choices or possibilities, what use is this free will for? Is it mainly only evil except when you choose between eating apples or oranges for breakfast?

 

How can man be perfect and upright and yet sin ? In the initial state. How is the fall even possible with these starting factors? IF that was meant to be then by extension arent we doing things the right way?

 

 

 

God's wrath is more of a holy pity/pathos (Ezekiel 18:23), it's righteous indignation, but He knew that He would eventually have a human race to enjoy eternity with. 1/3 of the angels will be destroyed in hell but he still has 2/3 of them to share eternity with. As I said previously, God is love and love is active, He creates because of love & love has to have an object. God is a social being. Fear is of the devil and God has no fear so He did not let rebellious created beings deter Him from doing what He wills. He can recreate those who want-and eventually choose- to live eternally. Disobeying His perfect rules is a choice & it's a choice to die (Romans 6:23).

 

You said it, man was upright and he fell; do you fall if you're lying flat on the ground? Again I say, the choice to sin/disobey God was a choice to live or not. God CANNOT give a created being eternal life if they don't want it and since a CREATED being cannot choose to live before it's created then God has to give them that choice AFTER they're created, hence the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This planet failed (see parable of the lost sheep) and Satan and every single being that gives- or would give -him their allegiance will be choosing to share his fate of oblivion/eventual non existence. Mankind is in a fallen state & Jesus was given to pick us up so we can be upright again. Humans can be altruistic at times because we were made in God's image but generally we're selfish, the antithesis of God's character. God wants to recreate us into His image, a COMPLETE change, we need to be consistently holy.

 

 

 

Do you realize that is a pile of nonsense?  If God loves his creation then it was nonsense for God to create the ones what would "choose" to be destroyed.  And of course that itself is nonsense because people don't choose to be destroyed.  Romans 6:23 is a lie.  You God doesn't have perfect rule.  Rather your God impersonates something that is imaginary.  God acts like he is no better than any of the false religions and then is angry when people can't tell the difference?  This makes no sense.

 

It is not the choice to live or die.  It's just Christians pretending their God is real when they can't show a single scrap of evidence for this God.  Your Jesus Christ is a myth created from fiction.

[TheOutsider]

See my later post about choice.

 

Okay, let's see...

 

Error: 404 not found.

Riveting... Truly.

 

Did you mean former? Because I still don't think that really counts as choice... A plus or minus disposition button that god presses, against your will, that you have no say in whatsoever, whenever he interacts with you, apparently often without your knowledge, isn't really what I'd call choice... Care to retract that? Cause you're not making a good case for the claim that if your god is real, we still get to chose to do anything, and are therefor responsible enough for our pre-programmed actions to be punished for them. You can't have an omniscient god that created everything, and justified punishment at the same time. Pick one, and reconcile it with the rest of your contradictory mess of a supposedly perfect holy book.

 

And you do realize religious fanaticism has and continues to cause more real harm, real death, real destruction, and real suffering then us heathens that recognize that no one has all, or sometimes any, of the answers for life's big questions, right? You do understand how far people are willing to go when they believe they can not be wrong about something, right? You seem to be one that believes they can't be wrong about their religion. That's fucking dangerous. Of course, I'm just a dirty heathen that hates your god and lies about him not being real, nothing I say can break your knowledge, you absolutely can't be wrong. God is at your side and you see everything clear as day.

 

God is good because god is good because god is good because.....

 

By your own logic, if there is a god, religious fanatics will be the ones in some hell equivalent, one that would probably be infinitely more humane than the one your own myths loosely kinda sorta maybe but not really point to maybe but not really existing... If only because more harm has been done in the name of made up gods, then for any other reason. How can any action be wrong when god all mighty himself is at your side? Am I right?

 

Wait, I think I might have figured it out. You're just going to finger his prostate aren't you? I guess that would be more literal then the use of a strap on... I'd say lucky him, but he probably prefers having the little boys [that might be too far]ing him, if the catholic church  and various protestant preachers and whatnot are anything to go by.

[midniterider]

 

God sends us to hell because we are his children and he loves us. Haha.

 

You didn't even greet me, what's up with that?

How are you midnite?

 

Yes, if your favorite pet contracted rabies and is rabid you'll have to put it out of its misery for its own good as well as the good of society, though it WILL hurt your heart to do so.

 

 

 

Greetings Thumbelina. How is whatever you do coming along? How is Uncle Bob and his gout? 

 

Regarding diseases, "Rabies is a deadly virus that attacks the CNS (central nervous system) and causes acute encephalitis..." - http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/181980.php

 

Christianity, on the other hand is a deadly virus that attacks one's ability to differentiate between reality and fantasy - Midnight Rider, personal experience.

[Thumbelina]

Fossil? Don't you know that fossils are just a trick of Satan to get us to believe in evolution?

 

That old serpent has many tricks I don't believe fossils were one of them though.

[Thumbelina]

 

See my later post about choice.

 

Okay, let's see...

 

Error: 404 not found.

Riveting... Truly.

 

Did you mean former? Because I still don't think that really counts as choice... A plus or minus disposition button that god presses, against your will, that you have no say in whatsoever, whenever he interacts with you, apparently often without your knowledge, isn't really what I'd call choice... Care to retract that? Cause you're not making a good case for the claim that if your god is real, we still get to chose to do anything, and are therefor responsible enough for our pre-programmed actions to be punished for them. You can't have an omniscient god that created everything, and justified punishment at the same time. Pick one, and reconcile it with the rest of your contradictory mess of a supposedly perfect holy book.

 

And you do realize religious fanaticism has and continues to cause more real harm, real death, real destruction, and real suffering then us heathens that recognize that no one has all, or sometimes any, of the answers for life's big questions, right? You do understand how far people are willing to go when they believe they can not be wrong about something, right? You seem to be one that believes they can't be wrong about their religion. That's fucking dangerous. Of course, I'm just a dirty heathen that hates your god and lies about him not being real, nothing I say can break your knowledge, you absolutely can't be wrong. God is at your side and you see everything clear as day.

 

God is good because god is good because god is good because.....

 

By your own logic, if there is a god, religious fanatics will be the ones in some hell equivalent, one that would probably be infinitely more humane than the one your own myths loosely kinda sorta maybe but not really point to maybe but not really existing... If only because more harm has been done in the name of made up gods, then for any other reason. How can any action be wrong when god all mighty himself is at your side? Am I right?

 

Wait, I think I might have figured it out. You're just going to finger his prostate aren't you? I guess that would be more literal then the use of a strap on... I'd say lucky him, but he probably prefers having the little boys [that might be too far]ing him, if the catholic church  and various protestant preachers and whatnot are anything to go by.

 

 

Can a baby choose to be born? No. However, when it grows to have more understanding can it choose suicide or to live life to the fullest? Similarly although we did not choose to be here our Father willed it and it's up to us to commit suicide or choose to live the abundant life (John 10:10). Choosing to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not pre-programmed. Just as a parent warns their children not to make bad choices, God warned his children but they ignored his warning; but as any good parent who loves their children would do, He had a plan to rescue them, He posted bail & He's their lawyer & He's the judge too. All His children has to do is trust Him and follow what He says. Every good and perfect gift is from God (James 1:17). Sin is not from Him, that was a choice. Evil is a parasite on good, just like you have a healthy body with healthy cells but cancer invades it and causes unhealthy cells so it is with sin but God has the cure for cancer (sin).

 

 

 

Yes, I know that religionists/fanatics has caused a lot of harm throughout history, bible prophecy says it will happen so it just makes one trust the bible more. Satan is a deceiver so doing evil under the guise of religion IS his best trick (2 Corinth. 11:14). I believe the bible has given enough answers to help man find salvation. Believers are supposed to speak with authority (Acts 4:13), Jesus and his disciples were accused of being fanatics, being drunk, crazy etc. I see many people on this website who are quite likeable, altruistic etc. and not as dirty heathens. I've seen God's Providences in my life and nobody can take MY testimony from me (Revelation 12:11).

 

 

 

Ultimately God is the judge (Hebrews 10:30), religious persecutors will be judged by Him.

 

 

 

I disagree with you but I do acknowledge your right to disagree with me

[Thumbelina]

 

 

God sends us to hell because we are his children and he loves us. Haha.

 

You didn't even greet me, what's up with that?

How are you midnite?

 

Yes, if your favorite pet contracted rabies and is rabid you'll have to put it out of its misery for its own good as well as the good of society, though it WILL hurt your heart to do so.

 

 

 

Greetings Thumbelina. How is whatever you do coming along? How is Uncle Bob and his gout? 

 

Regarding diseases, "Rabies[/size] is a deadly virus that attacks the CNS (central nervous system) and causes acute encephalitis..." - [/size]http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/181980.php

 

Christianity, on the other hand is a deadly virus that attacks one's ability to differentiate between reality and fantasy - Midnight Rider, personal experience.

 

 

Hello, I'm Ok, learning how to grow a tough shell. You seem to be alright. I pray for the people on this site & I check in from time to time but please know that I mean no harm.

[midniterider]

 

 

Hell is not eternal, God is. His presence is a consuming fire (you may look up the texts if you wish) when God unveils Himself completely then all who do wickedly will be consumed/destroyed. Every man will be awarded based on their works; since no man is inherently immortal then their wicked works are not everlasting, therefore they can't burn forever. That's such an evil teaching that makes God a monster!

No offense Thumb but God really needs to tell us himself. Otherwise it's just hearsay and neither I nor Judge Judy accept hearsay.The bible is hearsay.

 

 

Y'all don't listen, He's got the cure for rabies but ya rejecting the inoculation! So inoculated people gotta tell what He did for them & encourage others to partake of the cure.

 

 

Sometimes when I need an answer from the Great Veterinarian about my dog, I call them. The people there have the Great Vet call me back because he is the one with the knowledge, not the receptionist. In the case of Jesus he never calls back. I kinda think he's lost his license to practice.

 

Fun with parables. yaaay!

[midniterider]

 

 

God is the fire, no one can quench Him. See Isaiah 33:14-15. The righteous can walk in the fire but the wicked will be consumed. The three Hebrew boys in the fiery furnace described in Daniel was a sort of example of this. They did not die or smell of smoke but the other people who threw them in died. Jesus came & covered those three boys because of their faith.

Bah, thats old testament...it's obsolete. Haha

 

 

No it's not, Jezebel is mentioned in the NT, if the OT were obsolete how would you know about her?

 

 

"Yes it is!" haha

 

The Bible is obsolete but I still know about it. 

MSDOS is obsolete, but I can still DIR.

[Thumbelina]

 

 

 

Hell is not eternal, God is. His presence is a consuming fire (you may look up the texts if you wish) when God unveils Himself completely then all who do wickedly will be consumed/destroyed. Every man will be awarded based on their works; since no man is inherently immortal then their wicked works are not everlasting, therefore they can't burn forever. That's such an evil teaching that makes God a monster!

No offense Thumb but God really needs to tell us himself. Otherwise it's just hearsay and neither I nor Judge Judy accept hearsay.The bible is hearsay.

 

 

Y'all don't listen, He's got the cure for rabies but ya rejecting the inoculation! So inoculated people gotta tell what He did for them & encourage others to partake of the cure.

 

 

Sometimes when I need an answer from the Great Veterinarian about my dog, I call them. The people there have the Great Vet call me back because he is the one with the knowledge, not the receptionist. In the case of Jesus he never calls back. I kinda think he's lost his license to practice.

 

Fun with parables. yaaay!

 

No, no, no, your analogy is wrong. It's someone else with a cured dog that's telling you about the best vet ever!

[midniterider]

 

 

 

God sends us to hell because we are his children and he loves us. Haha.

 

You didn't even greet me, what's up with that?

How are you midnite?

 

Yes, if your favorite pet contracted rabies and is rabid you'll have to put it out of its misery for its own good as well as the good of society, though it WILL hurt your heart to do so.

 

 

 

Greetings Thumbelina. How is whatever you do coming along? How is Uncle Bob and his gout? 

 

Regarding diseases, "Rabies[/size] is a deadly virus that attacks the CNS (central nervous system) and causes acute encephalitis..." - [/size]http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/181980.php

 

Christianity, on the other hand is a deadly virus that attacks one's ability to differentiate between reality and fantasy - Midnight Rider, personal experience.

 

 

Hello, I'm Ok, learning how to grow a tough shell. You seem to be alright. I pray for the people on this site & I check in from time to time but please know that I mean no harm.

 

 

I understand you mean no harm. I just found Christianity to be harmful to my sanity so I dumped it. But it may be precisely what you need and make you happy. If there is a Jesus he will need to find a non-biblical approach to reach me and then I will have to agree that I want to be reached. One size does not fit all. One religion does not fit all. Just think how boring it will be in the Christian heaven with nothing to talk about or think about but Jesus. Gag. I have relatives who OCD about Jesus and it is painful to watch. Variety is the spice of life. Try some Zen or Pan Theism for a change. 

[mymistake]

 

Fossil? Don't you know that fossils are just a trick of Satan to get us to believe in evolution?

 

That old serpent has many tricks I don't believe fossils were one of them though.

 

 

 

So you would agree then that Earth is billions of years old and life has evolved for many millions of years during the distant past?

[disillusioned]

I generally make a point of not debating Christian theology with theists. I don't think that hell exists, except in the mind of those who believe in it. But if Christianity is true, then it seems to me that hell needs no justification. God, being God, can do whatever the hell he wants (forgive the expression).

 

What I'm more interested in is why anyone believes in hell in the first place. As I see it, no one has ever had any reason to think it exists, other than that they have been told it exists. But those who told them have no more knowledge of it than we do. It seems to me to be nothing more than a rather cheap, unsubtle scare tactic devised by those who wish to exercise religious authority over their fellow humans. It is psychologically damaging, and hence I think that perpetuating this belief is reprehensible. So what I want Thumby (or anyone else, for that matter) to tell me is why she believes in the existence of hell. Of course, I don't have great expectations for her answer, but perhaps she will surprise me.

[mymistake]

 

 

So what I want Thumby (or anyone else, for that matter) to tell me is why she believes in the existence of hell. Of course, I don't have great expectations for her answer, but perhaps she will surprise me.

 

 

Because Bible verses.  Yep, Bible verses.