Standing On Sand

[bunzooh]

Someone told me this was a good place to start, so here I am. I do not consider myself an ex-Christian, though I've gone through some sea changes in the past three years that feel like the rug is being pulled out from under me. Some days, it feels like I am reeling, like I am standing on sand, with nothing to show for 30+ years of following Jesus. The day before yesterday was one of them. I cried as I was falling asleep, because I'm not living for God, and I don't know how to return to him.

 

That was the day before yesterday. And yesterday I found this site. A place to talk to people who have gone through it, or are going through it. People who maybe understand.

 

I mention finding this site "at just the right time" because I still believe that God takes care of me, bringing along everything I need for my life. And I believe it was God who steered me right straight into my "first" Bible discrepancy two and a half years ago. The other night, I needed a way to share what I'm going through with people who have gone through similar...and looky here. Did God lead me here? hmmm.

 

So this is (part of) my story. It'll be longish.

 

First, let me repeat: I've been following Jesus for more than thirty years, and it could be said I first met him more like 40 years ago. but it was a conversion in my early 20's that "stuck" and I began attending church and living my life with the bible at the center, with my eyes always on how to serve God best. I loved the bible, and enjoyed studying it. A good sermon, expositing on a book or a verse was bread from heaven. I got to know the bible real well, and was able to apply verses to my life. I loved how it seemed to "match" my circumstances so often, providing comfort and "just what I needed" just when I needed it. I considered it to be true, inerrant (in the original languages), and inspired of God. Though i wasn't a strict, across the board literalist (I knew that poetry is poetry, and hyperbole was used by every author in the bible, including those who wrote the gospels, and some of it was meant to be symbolic, not literal.) I did take the historical books word for word, as true, chronological accounts of what actually happened, including the Creation account. Young earth, a garden of paradise, a talking serpent, a fruit, and the Fall. Yes, I believed that dinosaurs were here with us. We owned, and raised our kids on, many books by Answers in Genesis and Ken Ham.

 

The point being: If it was in the bible, it was trustworthy and true, and if science didn't match up, it was just a matter of time before scientific discovery lined up with what had always been in the bible.

 

The promises in the bible were big blessings, especially in Psalms, where I clung to passages that promised protection from evil, as long as I dwelled "in the shadow of the Almighty." These promises of protection gave me hope when my marriage exploded in 2007, and I clung to God harder than ever, and turned to the bible and prayer every day, moment by moment. The bible, and my prayer life, were my foundation, my solid rock.

 

Now, some things I did not like, such as an eternal hell where conscious beings would be tormented in fire for eternity. In fact, believing in a just God, I ditched the doctrine of eternal hellfire right around the time of my divorce, and found that there are teachings about annihilation...people who don't know God through Jesus aren't eternally tormented, but eternally lost, through becoming nothing, though they will receive punishment if they did evil, THEN nothingness. Other passages, especially in the Old Testament, were bothersome but "I quieted my soul like a weaned child" (aka "didn't ask hard questions") and lived with these little pebbles in my shoe for a while.

 

So, in 2013 I decided to read through the entire bible in one year. This wasn't for purposes of study, but just to consume the word. It had been several years since I'd read all the way through. Started in Genesis, and got as far as Exodus 24, where Moses has received the covenant... and then the light went on.

 

Exodus 24:9-11 says "Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy elders of israel went up, and they saw the God of Israel....and he did not lay his hand on them...they beheld God and ate and drank." Wait a minute...hadn't I heard for years that no one may look at God and live? didn't Moses plead with God to see Him, and God put him in a cleft in the rock and coverd Moses, so he WOULDN'T see God, because if he had...he would die!?

 

I began flipping around in Exodus. Sure enough, in chapter 33 it says clearly "But you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live" Well, which is it? Can man look upon God and live, or not? One answer I found said "Clearly, when they all sat on the mountainside with God and ate, it was the second person of the Trinity they were seeing." Right. But why would this ancient account, written by Jewish people, FOR Jewish people, have this discrepancy for centuries, with no explanation? The Trinity wasn't even thought about until ages after the time of Christ. How could God be behind this kind of confusion?

 

In researching this question, I found a site dedicated to bible contradictions, and found a few more that were pretty juicy. For instance, in Genesis 4, the last verse, it says "at that time, people began to call on the name YWH" ... really? But what about Moses and the burning bush, where he asked God and God said "I will tell you my name, and I've NEVER TOLD ANYONE BEFORE"... Really, YWH? You've NEVER revealed your name? The Genesis 4 verse is only the first mention. There are many places before the burning bush, where the name YWH is evoked or mentioned, including in the lives of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Yet YWH proclaims "Moses, you are the first one to hear this name"... ugh.

 

This was absolutely earth shattering for me. In my years as a Christian, I could see where people were misreading, misinterpreting, and misusing the bible. I knew that biases came into play with every translation. That was human arrogance and human error, but the bible "in its original signatures" was true and solid, inerrant, infallible. NOT!

 

Clearly, there were errors. Clearly people had written things down as they saw fit, and proclaimed "Thus saith the Lord!" This was difficult to swallow,this biblical error thing, but it gets worse.

 

Remember, the promises were my stronghold. I clung to the comfort of scripture through the rough patches in my life. Memorized Psalm 91, that promises no evil will befall, no pestilence will enter the home, of one who "lives in the shadow of the Almighty"

 

Now I must go back to 2012, maybe a year before my "first discrepancy"...I wanted a strong prayer life, and sought God every day. I'd pray, he would show me what to pray for, I would pray for what I saw, and I felt sure that God was hearing me and answering my prayers. I prayed for safety for a friend, not knowng that right at that time he was in a car wreck that should have killed him. I prayed for my best friend, for health and safety and protection, not knowing that her husband had been diagnosed with cancer. Etc. (This is a big part of what I miss the most: seeing what to pray for, and knowing that god was listening and answering)

 

At the same time that i was increasing in this, I got really sick. Cellulitis in my leg knocked me down three times in six months, that year. I also got a case of impetigo on my face...not a huge amount, but still...impetigo?? I said at the time "What happened to your promise, God? See where it says no pestilence will enter my tent? well...?" Also in 2012 I was fighting my sex drive as hard as I could. I wanted to be in a relationship, and there was a charming man who wanted to woo me. He was married. I was SUPER tempted, but ultimately turned him down.

 

The day he showed up at my door before work, and came on to me, and I said "No, this is not right" (even though my emotions and my hormones WANTED HIM so bad!)...I felt victorious in the Lord! I had been tempted, and i had obeyed! Mind you, this is in the midst of still being exhausted from one bout after another with cellulitis. But it was good to obey the Lord. Right?

 

Went to work, and in a fluke accident, I injured my hand badly, falling in the parking lot. (Long story, skip the details)...I ended up at urgent care, with the ring I wore embedded in one finger, and the next finger over torn open along the knuckle. It hurt like HELL, but I got through it, still clinging to God.

 

Until 2013 when i began reading with open eyes, and thinking about what the bible had meant to me. How I had received comfort from psalm 91 and other passages. How deeply I had longed to be close to god and do his will. How fully I had lived in His shadow. How diligently and fervently I had prayed...and all along, I was beset with painful, exhausting illnesses and injuries. The ills had befallen me, and the pestilence had entered my dwelling, EVEN THOUGH I was serving him, living in his shadow, and turning to him for every comfort.

 

So, the bible has errors AND the promises of the bible are empty. My conclusion is that the bible is utterly untrustworthy, and without it, how do I know God? Not YWH...I really want nothing to do with YWH...no, that's not entirely true. I want nothing to do with whatever is written about god, by the priests and leaders of the Jewish people, whenever it was that they wrote this stuff down.

 

Right now I am on the threshold of walking away. I still believe in god, and really I do believe in the resurrection. But how, if the bible is bunk?

[mymistake]

Welcome bunzooh!  Your story sounds a lot like mine.  I accepted Jesus in 1976 and kept faithful until 2010, except for a couple of weeks when I was around 9 or 10 when they had to send me to Bible camp to straiten me out.  If you have any questions I am happy to help.  I really don't care if you keep your faith as long as you don't hurt anybody.  At the end I tried to keep my faith and I might have pulled it off if circumstances had been different.  Anyway welcome.  Feel free to talk about whatever is on your mind.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Welcome, and congrats on seeing through the many lies that make up the faith we both followed for decades! The promises of Jesus and the extracted promises that many believers claim all fall flat (except for occasional coincidences). Like you, I would cling to things that were supposed to be true, and then make up excuses for god when they didn't happen. "He's got a better plan" was the most often used, which belies the fact that he made a promise. Then the better plan never came either. If I didn't buy the "better plan", other believers would switch into the ooga booga mode of "Who are YOU to question GOOOOODDDD????!!!" So suddenly he wasn't daddy anymore, but a violently dangerous being that would do horrible things to me if I didn't love him. That's the classic abusive spouse rut.

 

I came to this site about 8 years ago, and found several ex-pastors and lots more ex-laypeople and I found that they had questions and conclusions that were rock-solid in exposing the lies I had followed for many years. It sounds like you've been through a ton of stress recently with all the illness. For myself, I found a ton of peace when I realized that my faith had been based on myths. I was one who was always engaged in "spiritual warfare", and so that invisible war against demons and angels suddenly went silent. Ahhhhh! My stress level plummeted. No one was watching my thoughts and emotions for transgressions. I could simply be myself, and sin no longer existed, only the default human values. I became much more creative and started writing a book to process all of the emotions whirling in my head.

 

It takes time to process things, and to find a path in life that feels right. Give yourself time, cut yourself slack, and spend time here perusing and talking with others. You'll be fine. As for beliefs, you'll find that some of us have various spiritual paths while others see us as simply animals with a giant capacity for abstract thought. Again, welcome!

[TrueFreedom]

Welcome, bunzooh!  You've got much to work through.  It might take some time.  Many of us have gone from conservative Christianity to liberal Christianity to agnosticism/atheism or some type of paganism or pantheism.  My journey took me from an inability to reconcile hell doctrines with any sense of love or justice to no longer viewing the Bible as authoritative to no longer believing that God answers prayer to learning that Christianity was spread by force and not in spite of persecution to understanding evolution to understanding the history of the gods in the Bible to, at age 35/36, as an active conservative Christian lay-leader and homeschooler, to no longer believing in God.  Your mileage may vary.  *hugs*

[Burny]

Welcome and thanks for sharing your story. You're right - most of us used to believe the same things you did and most of us no longer do. Whatever your ultimate philosophy might be, you're in the right place to explore some interesting and potentially heart breaking realities.

[Geezer]

I was a born again Christian for 40 plus years. I taught Bible classes for most of that time, served as a deacon several times and as an elder twice, held bible studies & baptized a number of people into Christ, & I also did a little preaching from time to time.

I say all of that to confirm that I know where you are at now in your walk of faith because I've been there too as have most of the people that are active here.

I saw the contradictions & inconsistances long before I decided to find out why the perfect word of God contained obvious flaws & things that could not possibly be true. It took me nearly 30 years to admit to myself the bible isn't perfect. In fact it is terribly flawed. It took me another 10 years of intense study & researching religious history to convince me none of it is true. The events you read about in the Bible were not real historical events, they are myths. The people & characters you read about in the gospels were not real people either. The were simply characters made up by the story tellers.

Yeah, that includes Jesus too. No evidence has ever been found that Jesus ever existed in the flesh. At this point if you have gotten this far you are probably freaking out. I understand, we all do, because we've been where you are now. As I noted earlier, it takes a lot of time & study to find the truth. the journey out of faith often takes years to complete.

We were all indoctrinated (brainwashed) into believing the things we believed. Even Christians admit there is no proof any of it is true, that is why "faith" is necessary (brainwashing).

If you decide to pursue your quest for truth I would suggest you get on Amazon & read everything Dr. Bart Ehrman has written, such as "Who wrote the Bible & Why It Matters." that would be a good book to start with.

If you decide to continue your quest for truth, I wish you well. there is a lot of good info on this site. Well worth the time to read other posters thoughts & findings.

[TrueFreedom]

Regarding biblical discrepancies, I've been thinking about putting a challenge out there to find a single event mentioned more than once in the bible in which the details match.  I don't know of a single one.  Compare anything in Samuel to the same event in Kings.  All of the numbers, names, consequences are different.  It's hard to find anything that's not a discrepancy or contradiction.

[bunzooh]

Bart Ehrman! I own a book by him...Misquoting Jesus? or something like that. Where I read about the flat out factual error/misquote in the gospel of Mark. I don't consider that my first discrepancy, though, because you know, Mark might make a little mistake. No biggy, misquoting whatever prophet it was. Sort of like the "discrepancy" where Judas either falls off a cliff and his guts gush out, or did  he hang himself. Whatever. Those didn't bother me, and they sort of still don't.

 

But after reading that one, I sort of got irritated at bible thumpers and literalists...and the remove from the camp was just a few steps further along.

[midniterider]

Right now I am on the threshold of walking away. I still believe in god, and really I do believe in the resurrection. But how, if the bible is bunk?

 

Thanks for sharing your story with us.

 

A lot of people believe a lot of different ways, often conflicting with other Christian views yet they call themselves Christians. You may want to ask yourself why it is necessary to believe in the resurrection, especially since the bible is bunk. You might want to modify your beliefs a bit to accommodate your new view of the bible. Go easy on yourself.

[Geezer]

Bunzooh, No one knows where the gospel story (there is only one story not four) came from. Scholars do know, however, that no one named Matthew, Mark, Luke , or John wrote them. The Catholic Church added those names later to give the appearance of authenticity.

The gospel of John appears to be a gnostic gospel it does not reflect orthodox thinking & tradition.

 

Each gospel was copied & edited to give a particular message to a specific community. The beginning of the gospel of Luke clearly indicates it was not written by an eyewitness to the events being written about & it also indicates it was clearly not written by Luke the traveling companion of Paul, who also was likely a fictional character.

 

As I noted in another post Ehrman is a good historian to read. Dr. Robert M Price is also a fantastic source for religious historical information but he is a little more difficult to read because he tends to write to other scholars rather than to the novice reader. I love history so I tend to really get into historians & their findings.

[sdelsolray]

Welcome Bunzooh.  Your story is very personal and immediate.  You will find many folks here on this forum with a similar background and who are going through (or have already gone through) a similar journey.

 

You have much work to do.  It's can be difficult (and sometimes dangerous) to provide advice, particularly when one (me in this case) has not had the experiences that you have had (e,g., buying into Ken Ham's lies, misrepresentations and overall nonsense).  Still, I will make a few 30,000 foot level suggestions:

 

1)  Inventory the religious indoctrination you received.

 

2)  Learn about critical thinking, skepticism, intellectual and emotional honesty and logic.

 

3)  Apply #2 above to #1 above.

[JCW]

Welcome Bunzooh, I think the you will find many people on here that you be able to relate with in many ways. My story is quite different from yours, but I did also struggle with what seemed to be the empty promises of God and the lack any "joy of the Lord" in my life. I am sure you will find the many stories and views on here helpful in your search for truth. I hope you can take comfort in believing that any God that does exist should want you to question your beliefs and search wholeheartedly for truth, I can think of nothing more honest or true to oneself then to embark on such a journey.

[directionless]

Hi, @bunzooh.

 

Maybe this is your opportunity to know God better. You have those experiences of seeming to know when friends need prayers and so forth, so that might be evidence of a real God in a real relationship with you. So learning that the fundamentalist Bible God is false brings you closer to seeing the real God better. Like that verse you mentioned in the OP.

Exodus 24:9-11 says "Then Moses and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy elders of israel went up, and they saw the God of Israel....and he did not lay his hand on them...they beheld God and ate and drank.

There are philosophical arguments against the existence of any type of God (e.g. "the problem of evil"). I go back and forth about God. Believing in God has been a lifelong habit, so that is hard to change regardless of the arguments. The world without God is inspiring too.

 

Anyway, I can sympathize.

[Margee]

 

 

Right now I am on the threshold of walking away. I still believe in god, and really I do believe in the resurrection. But how, if the bible is bunk?

 

Welcome bunzooh and thank you so much for sharing your story with us.  You hang tight and keep reading everything that you can. We all understand what you are going through. You have among you all kinds of friends now to help you along the journey. We can relate so much to your story. It's how I ended up on this site. Try not be afraid. You will be able to figure out in time what you believe and don't believe. Take your time. I'm so glad for you that you found EX-c. Try to stay as peaceful as you can. Keep doing nice things for yourself everyday. This can be extremely upsetting for us when we start to question our beliefs. But we are here for you on your journey. Keep posting all your feelings hon.

 

((hug))

[Ellinas]

Welcome.

 

You are at the start of a process which may take you to any one of a variety of conclusions (and probably more than one in succession).  How closely wedded to Christianity you have been emotionally will determine how painful that will be.  But it is worth the effort to gain freedom from the tyranny of that religion.

 

Questioning beliefs is good.  Discovering there is no answer is a decent clue to the quality of the belief you are questioning.

 

You will find a sympathetic ear and a willing stream of advice here - do not fear to tell us of your doubts, questions, even struggles.  And do not try to prejudge where you will end up in this process - there are many viewpoints represented here, but we are all united in our rejection of a false religion.

[bunzooh]

I love these replies! Thanks to all who have answered. Frankly, I feel like God is behind all of my doubts and questions. I think God steered me into the "First Discrepancy" that took away a brick in the tower, and since then so many bricks have been removed, the tower is tottering. And I think God wants that to happen. I'm turning away from a false god, and finding out who God really is.

[mymistake]

I love these replies! Thanks to all who have answered. Frankly, I feel like God is behind all of my doubts and questions. I think God steered me into the "First Discrepancy" that took away a brick in the tower, and since then so many bricks have been removed, the tower is tottering. And I think God wants that to happen. I'm turning away from a false god, and finding out who God really is.

 

 

I can relate.  Good luck with your journey.

[TheOutsider]

There was a Buddhist concept that I found quite fascinating when I was still not quite sure where I was, after I was pretty sure christianity wasn't right. Two but not two, It's open to a lot of metaphysical, new-agey weird ideas, but if not taken too far it might help, or at least be interesting.

 

Also, last night I noticed you where reading one of the lions den threads I was posting in, I hope I didn't offend too much... Anyway, welcome to the journey of free thought and reason, nothing is forbidden.

[Guest sylensikeelyoo]

BUNZZZ! WELCOME AND ***HUGGGSSSSS****** its a process. We've all been through it. Take your time and you'll be okay. Walking away from a religion you've been immersed in balls deep like we have....its serious business. So AWESOME to have you with us!! *kiss*

[disillusioned]

Welcome, and thanks for sharing your story.

 

I just finished reading Misquoting Jesus. I recommend it highly. It may be helpful to you.

 

If I may, you say that you believe in the resurrection. Why is this? Not criticizing, just curious.

 

Take your time. Explore everything that you can. And stick around! There's lots of smart, experienced and helpful people on here.

[Insightful]

Hi there Bunzooh and welcome!

 

I completely related to your story.  For me, I grew up in a Christian home (charismatic / assemblies of God).  As a kid, I saw through the charismatic silliness, but I thought there was a legitimate TRUE faith underneath.  So in college, I became reformed baptist / fundamentalist.  That was appealing because those folks really studied that Bible hard and sounded sure that they understood it.  Being more of an intellectual, I was attracted to the deep study.  I spent 14 years in a hardcore fundamentalist church that was very cult-like.  I would stumble upon problem after problem and just find ways to stuff them.  I led a 2 year, verse-by-verse study through Genesis and found SO many problems... Eventually all of the "stuffing" became to much to bear and the cognitive dissonance became insane-feeling.  Then I adopted two little girls with emotional trauma and, because of my Bible-indoctrination, I could only understand their "misbehaviors" as "sin" coming from their "total depravity".  (I was too brainwashed and anti-psychology to understand that they showed all of the classic signs of neglect and institutionalization).  So, like a good Christian parent, I spanked away.  But a funny thing happens when you spank a poorly-attached, traumatized child.  they start acting worse because they are now even more freaked out.  So I called my pastor who told my I needed to break my daughters will.  Well, now she's 9 and we're still in therapy! 

 

Christianity also wreaked havoc in my marriage.  All of that talk about wives being submissive, being silent in the church, obeying their husbands, being the property of their husbands, and being easily decieved, gullible, and responsible for the fall result in many wives being treated as 2nd class citizens.  And even Christian wives don't like this.  I'm in therapy for that too. =)

 

I was able to hold on to the cognitive dissonance until I started to see how much Christianity had severely harmed my relationships with my wife and children.  Once I realized that I would have been a better father and husband without its teachings, it lost THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT I'd given it for so long.  Once it lost the BOTD, I had no reason to try to pretend all of the glaring problems weren't there...  So now I admit the many problems as well as the human origins of the Bible.

 

I echo the recommendation for Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus.  My personal favorite is Ken Daniels' Why I Believed: Reflections of a Former Missionary.  That guy was so committed to his faith.  I love how he sifts through all of the reasons he believed...

 

Now I identify as both agnostic and humanist.  Agnostic as to what I know - that is to say, I am UNSURE if a god/gods exist(s).  Humanist as to what I believe - that the best I can do is make this world a better place and ease suffering and seek justice here and now.

 

All the best to you.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Hi bunzoo, I too welcome you to this site. It's a good place.

 

I've spent more time dipping into the Talmud the past couple weeks than I have done in a long while.

 

Thought: these old guys with really ugly beards and hair sit around telling everyone else what to do and what not to do. Especially, what not to do.

 

But that's the Talmud, the Christian fundy will say.

 

That's men with religious authority. you think it was different BEFORE the Talmud was compiled?

 

So, in the words of Big Mama in Tennesee Williams' Cat on a Hot Tin Roof: I say crap, crap, I say, just like Big Daddy.

 

It is extremely important for women and girls to be able to say "crap" in this world.

 

Rock on, bunzoo, and stick around!

[bunzooh]

Misquoting Jesus. I own that book, and have read it. There's a pretty cool "history of the documents" that I like a lot, the part where (whosever it was) discovered a pile of manuscripts on the burn pile at a monastery.

 

But the question for me was when the author did a dissertation or something on the topic of the error in Mark 6, where the wrong prophet was quoted (or something like that) and Ehrman's prof said "Maybe Mark made a mistake"...okay. But how did that professor end up still believing, still being  a Xtian?

 

Finding out the Bible is so flawed and riddled with errors has absolutely floored me. My best friend accepts that there are errors and flaws, and still believes solidly. Hmmm. Again...I think I've been believing in a false god, and need to meet and find out who God is.

[TrueFreedom]

I'm going to recommend The Divine Magician.

 

"The sacred is not an object that promises completeness, that we love, but is the experience that we get from the act of love itself."

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Divine-Magician-Disappearance-Discovery-ebook/dp/B00DPM90AG/ref=pd_sim_351_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=12CP2114R18BP3WWEVZ8#customerReviews

 

[bunzooh]

thanks disillusioned. I'm going to re-read Misquoting Jesus, but currently am skimming thru a book called Faith Shift, by a woman who runs a ministry called The Refuge, for people who have lost their faith for whatever reasons. It's a super easy read and I'll finish it up today. Then the Ehrman book.

 

Why I believe in the resurrection. I think it is telling that all four gospels have women (who were utterly discounted at that time and their witness was always invalid) being the first to discover the empty tomb. If the stories were complete fiction, made up by the men who wrote them, I think the details would be more grand, and they would have a credible male leader be the one to first discover the stone rolled away.

 

Also, in my 50's now, and really becoming aware of human mortality, and there are so many REALLY WONDERFUL things about human beings. I can't believe that it's all just over when we die. There are so many absolutely amazing things about the cosmos, too. I've always believed that when the New Heavens and New Earth are created, there will be all the great wonder and beauty we now see around us, only more delightful and glorious. And it all just goes away? Can't have that.

 

We'll see where I end up. I am definitely evolving.

 

TF, thanks for the video. I'll be exploring his stuff some more.