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Goodbye Jesus

God's Ways Are Not Our Ways Vs. The Knowledge Of Good And Evil


yunea

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Tell me, how does this actually work?

 

For the sake of conversation, let's assume for a moment that the Christian God and the Bible stories are real. I know that a general answer to my question is "it doesn't work, it's all myth" etc, but that's not what I'm looking for.

 

So, we are supposed to not judge God when he orders murder in scripture, doesn't answer prayers (or answers only weird, small stuff like parking space requests when there are huge problems in the world that sure could use divine intervention), and has a holy book that is not supported by science in its crucial parts. We are supposed to just trust that it's all for a some kind of greater good in both our lives and in eternity.

 

According to Genesis, Adam and Eve ate the fruit that gave them the knowledge of good and evil. We know now what is good and evil because of that fruit, right? 

 

But....what if we wanted to apply that knowledge to God and the ways he works, the ways he allows all kinds of horrible things to happen despite people begging on their knees for help? How he cursed all humankind for one moment of a mix of being curious and easily led?

 

Why are we not allowed to say that we know evil when we see it, when it's God in question?

 

What was that fruit's effect, if not knowledge of good and evil? Or was it a some kind of flawed version of the knowledge even though the perfect God created it? 

 

Answer me, Christians!

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This is a very interesting thread that will hopefully get some honest and useful answers. I honestly never really thought about the idea of applying our knowledge of good and evil that came from the tree could be applied to Yahweh and used as a means of determining that he is evil.

 

All I can really say though is that eating from the tree didn't just cause humans to have a knowledge of good and evil, as there were a lot of unforeseen consequences that came from it, such as painful child-bearing, men being required to work in the field, and women becoming the property of men. At some point humans developed a sinful programming nature (it sounds nicer to use the word "nature" instead of "programming") that, according to the Bible made all humans evil.

 

I suppose that because of this, the Christian answer would probably be that our sinful natures have somehow skewed our knowledge of good and evil and so we can't really judge God as evil because we ourselves are evil. To me, this Christian answer is nothing more than a way of telling people not to think for themselves and draw their own conclusions, but to just trust God. I honestly don't see you getting any other answer from Christian responses, but at the very least, it will liven up the Lion's Den again and provide more entertainment.

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Guest Furball

From what i was taught, because we have sinned against god and are now criminals in his sight:

 

A. We have forfeited any claim on god or his promises

 

B. God can act evil towards his creation while still retaining his goodness because he is acting out of justice and not out of plain old evil. 

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Yunea noted the story is a myth. That reality cannot simply be dismissed as irrelevant or overlooked, because that is a key factor when it comes to interpreting & understanding the story. The story is an attempt by an ancient culture to understand why good & evil exist & they determined the only reasonable explanation was that God or Gods were responsible.

 

There is no great mystery to solve here. The story is a myth. Some people are attempting to find some great hidden meaning in the story but there isn't any other than the ones believers have fabricated.

 

What some call evil comes from evolution " The strong survive & the desire to survive" makes us selfish & sometimes dangerous to others.

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Cue the Christians not showing up and never defending their dogma in  3 . . . 2 . . . 

 

. . . oh wait  GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif

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It's another example of the special pleading fallacy.  Christian claim everything has a cause except their God, invoking special pleading for this God.  Here, humans acquire the knowledge of good and evil, except for their God and other related sky fairies of the Christian religion (e.g., Jesus, Holy Spirit, Angels, Satan, etc.), again invoking special pleading when it comes to their God.

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"So, we are supposed to not judge God when he orders murder in scripture, doesn't answer prayers (or answers only weird, small stuff like parking space requests when there are huge problems in the world that sure could use divine intervention), and has a holy book that is not supported by science in its crucial parts. We are supposed to just trust that it's all for a some kind of greater good in both our lives and in eternity."

 

~ yunea

 

 

God is the eternal supreme being.

 

It might help to think about all the science fiction space stories and movies...and then try to go light years beyond our imaginations.

 

We can't do it. We are not God.

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"So, we are supposed to not judge God when he orders murder in scripture, doesn't answer prayers (or answers only weird, small stuff like parking space requests when there are huge problems in the world that sure could use divine intervention), and has a holy book that is not supported by science in its crucial parts. We are supposed to just trust that it's all for a some kind of greater good in both our lives and in eternity."

 

~ yunea

 

 

God is the eternal supreme being.

 

...

 

So what?  Look up non sequitur.  According to the presumption of this thread (that your God exists as far as you can imagine), what it is has nothing whatsoever to do with a human's ability to analyze or distinguish one thing from another, in this case good from evil.

 

"...

It might help to think about all the science fiction space stories and movies...and then try to go light years beyond our imaginations.

...

 

 

It may help, it may not.  What is your point?

 

...

We can't do it. We are not God.

 

Speak for yourself, and not for others.  You proselytizing theists have a bad habit of speaking for others than yourselves.  Again, it is not relevant that this presumed God is more powerful than you or I, or can think deeper, or can run faster, or [fill in the blank].  That has nothing to do with whether humans have an ability to analyze or distinguish one thing from another, in this case good from evil.  Apparently that fruit eaten in the Garden of Eden was not as advertised, according to you.

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"So, we are supposed to not judge God when he orders murder in scripture, doesn't answer prayers (or answers only weird, small stuff like parking space requests when there are huge problems in the world that sure could use divine intervention), and has a holy book that is not supported by science in its crucial parts. We are supposed to just trust that it's all for a some kind of greater good in both our lives and in eternity."

 

~ yunea

 

 

God is the eternal supreme being.

 

It might help to think about all the science fiction space stories and movies...and then try to go light years beyond our imaginations.

 

We can't do it. We are not God.

 

I notice here that the question wasn't answered. Assuming for the sake of argument that "God...the eternal supreme being" is real, why is it that humanity can't point out his obvious evil, when we have the knowledge of it?

 

Nowhere in the 'curse' given after the fall is the knowledge of good and evil changed or taken away.

If God is God and humans are humans, and we are to be like God, and are created in his image, plus we now have become like one of the Trinity (Genesis 3:22) by having our eyes opened to knowing good and evil, why can't we look at what God does and say "That's evil!".  And for good measure, we can use his book, the Bible to show us what evil is. 

We can do it. By God's own admission we can.

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Okay, I was wrong about Christians not showing up.  I'm very surprised.  However I was right about Christians not defending their theology.

 

 

 

derp derp . . . you can't get any more supreme than murder and not answering prayer!  . . . derp derp

 

 

And there is no way a human mind could have imagined Star Wars or any other science fiction!  WendyDoh.gif

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"I notice here that the question wasn't answered. Assuming for the sake of argument that "God...the eternal supreme being" is real, why is it that humanity can't point out his obvious evil, when we have the knowledge of it?" ~ duderonomy

 

 

 

I can't create a universe or something that taste better than strawberry?

 

Me point out something I think is evil about God?

 

My knowledge superior to a eternal being?

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My knowledge superior to a eternal being?

 

 

God isn't eternal.  God is imaginary.  That is why the God in the Bible is an ignorant fool.  He doesn't know the shape of Earth or the nature of stars because God is imaginary.  The God of the Bible doesn't even understand the nature of rain.  God never heard of North America or South America.  The men who invented God didn't know so they couldn't imagine a God knowing.

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"I notice here that the question wasn't answered. Assuming for the sake of argument that "God...the eternal supreme being" is real, why is it that humanity can't point out his obvious evil, when we have the knowledge of it?" ~ duderonomy

 

 

 

I can't create a universe or something that taste better than strawberry?

 

Me point out something I think is evil about God?

 

My knowledge superior to a eternal being?

 

IH, you're a funny little person, I'll give you that.

 

My dick tastes better than strawberry.  

 

Yes, YOU point out something you think is evil about God.

 

Who says eternal beings, if they exist, have to have superior knowledge?  You just believe that they do because somebody else made that up. It was their story and they are sticking to it. 

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"Who says eternal beings, if they exist, have to have superior knowledge?  You just believe that they do because somebody else made that up. It was their story and they are sticking to it." ~duderonomy

 

 

 

A eternal being would know a lot more than we do

 

Would you agree?

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"Who says eternal beings, if they exist, have to have superior knowledge?  You just believe that they do because somebody else made that up. It was their story and they are sticking to it." ~duderonomy

 

 

 

A eternal being would know a lot more than we do

 

Would you agree?

 

No. An eternal being might live longer, being eternal and all, but might not know more than we do.

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A eternal being would know a lot more than we do

 

Would you agree?

 

No, I don't agree.  In order to endure for eternity, it might be that such a being has to be of very simple structure and lacks the mental processing and storage capability of humans and other complex beings.  It could even be a mindless automaton that simply acts and reacts, and doesn't actually "know" anything.  Finally, due to the ever-shifting sands of time it could have learned so many things and observed so much that it is now functionally insane and its knowledge worthless.

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"I notice here that the question wasn't answered. Assuming for the sake of argument that "God...the eternal supreme being" is real, why is it that humanity can't point out his obvious evil, when we have the knowledge of it?" ~ duderonomy

 

 

 

I can't create a universe or something that taste better than strawberry?

 

Me point out something I think is evil about God?

 

My knowledge superior to a eternal being?

 

You merely assume your God is not evil.  That's a major tenent in your religious dogma and that is not assumed for purposes of this thread.  Not at all.  Regardless, your God could certainly be evil and you and I could certainly have the human ability to see that evil.  Indeed, for purposes of this thread, it is presumed humans know how to distinguish good and evil because two ancestor humans ate magic fruit from a tree.  You are smarter than a chimpanzee, but the chimp can still know eating a banana is good and and eating hippo dung is bad.

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"No, I don't agree.  In order to endure for eternity, it might be that such a being has to be of very simple structure and lacks the mental processing and storage capability of humans and other complex beings.  It could even be a mindless automaton that simply acts and reacts, and doesn't actually "know" anything.  Finally, due to the ever-shifting sands of time it could have learned so many things and observed so much that it is now functionally insane and its knowledge worthless." ~ Astreja

 

 

You put humans above God or as you say other complex beings.

 

Why are you so reluctant to accept the premise that there is a eternal being?

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"Who says eternal beings, if they exist, have to have superior knowledge?  You just believe that they do because somebody else made that up. It was their story and they are sticking to it." ~duderonomy

 

 

 

A eternal being would know a lot more than we do

 

Would you agree?

 

And it can be evil, inconsistent, hateful, jealous, among many other things too, regardless of the amount of its knowledge, or the length of time it exists.

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Why are you so reluctant to accept the premise that there is a eternal being?

  1. The total lack of empirical evidence for the existence of such a being.
  2. The constant change inherent in everything, from the smallest subatomic particle to the largest star.  If it's composed of matter/energy, it can change and it can decay.  Why should we make exceptions for some hypothetical sentient thing conveniently located out of range of human observation?
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Ironhorse, we don't need to be "above god" to be able to use the Knowledge of Good and Evil that came with eating the forbidden fruit. Since you like parallels, think of this: A quite small child is able to see that an adult torturing and killing kittens for liking the sight of blood is not doing a good thing, but in fact an evil thing.

 

Even if our perception is smaller than God's perception, how would we be completely unable to say even ONE thing that is evil about how God works (and doesn't), since we in fact ate the very fruit that was supposed to give us the knowledge of it?

 

Of course, a God is redundant in the universe, as is "salvation" and someone somehow "dying for our sins", but we're temporarily assuming they're not, for the sake of this thread. 

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Why are you so reluctant to accept the premise that there is a eternal being?

 

 

Gee Ironhorse, why are you so reluctant to accept the premise that I am the Creator God so I made you along with the rest of the universe?

 

 

 

Derp Derp . . . well da bible sez . . . . Derp Derp

 

 

Derp Derp . . . Bob Dylan sang a song that goes like this . . . Derp Derp

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Ironhorse, we don't need to be "above god" to be able to use the Knowledge of Good and Evil that came with eating the forbidden fruit. Since you like parallels, think of this: A quite small child is able to see that an adult torturing and killing kittens for liking the sight of blood is not doing a good thing, but in fact an evil thing.

 

Even if our perception is smaller than God's perception, how would we be completely unable to say even ONE thing that is evil about how God works (and doesn't), since we in fact ate the very fruit that was supposed to give us the knowledge of it?

 

Of course, a God is redundant in the universe, as is "salvation" and someone somehow "dying for our sins", but we're temporarily assuming they're not, for the sake of this thread. 

 

Of course, if humans do not have the capability of discerning whether this God is evil then humans do not have the capability of discerning whether this God is good.

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Ironhorse, we don't need to be "above god" to be able to use the Knowledge of Good and Evil that came with eating the forbidden fruit. Since you like parallels, think of this: A quite small child is able to see that an adult torturing and killing kittens for liking the sight of blood is not doing a good thing, but in fact an evil thing.

 

Even if our perception is smaller than God's perception, how would we be completely unable to say even ONE thing that is evil about how God works (and doesn't), since we in fact ate the very fruit that was supposed to give us the knowledge of it?

 

Of course, a God is redundant in the universe, as is "salvation" and someone somehow "dying for our sins", but we're temporarily assuming they're not, for the sake of this thread. 

 

Of course, if humans do not have the capability of discerning whether this God is evil then humans do not have the capability of discerning whether this God is good.

 

 

That's actually one point I thought of adding to my OP, but I wasn't sure how to make it fit in there. Thanks for bringing it up!

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Guest Furball

Myself, as well as others i have talked to on here and in person have all agreed, that after having read their bibles a lot more carefully, determined, or rather came to the final conclusion, that either god doesn't exist, or if he does, he is pure evil. My question to the christians is, why do people keep coming to this conclusion? 

 

Yunea is right. Kids can see adults doing evil things and know that what they are doing is wrong. The god of the bible is pure evil. If any being of any kind ever deserved to be put into hell, it's the god of the bible. 

 

If god really was good and loving as christians ignorantly brag he is, and had his creations best interest in mind, he never would have even entertained the idea of putting the tree in the garden in the first place. 

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