Guest end3 Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 end3, I feel from your posts you are looking for something absolute to be held as your life compass. I also feel that you are very uncomfortable with uncertainties. Is this assessment correct? Life has a way of taking when you're not looking. Lot of loss in my life through people and mistrust. So yes, I'd say your assessment is very close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 End, I'm going to say this awkwardly. Please take from it whatever you want. Looking for certainty is a dead end, and a dangerous one. With the possible exception of death there are no guarantees of anything at all, and IMO it's more important to react appropriately to the gusts of wind that mess up our lives. I've pretty much given up on ideas like true love, absolute safety, and perfect justice, and deal with the world moment by moment and case by case. I observe as impartially as I can, and treat problem situations with curiosity rather than fear or outrage. All you need is the knowledge that you've made it this far; and the confidence that whatever the situation, you can do something about it. It may sound cynical and even cold, but it's more useful and a darned sight less exhausting than the hot-and-cold running emotions I used to have. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Life has a way of taking when you're not looking. Lot of loss in my life through people and mistrust. So yes, I'd say your assessment is very close. Yes, things happen beyond our personal control. From an individual and solely self-focused point of view, some of those things are a "loss", or an injury, or an injustice, etc. On the other hand, others may perceive the exact same event(s) as gain, healing or justice. You apparently expect, desire or hope for some other reality. A little bit of fantasy and/or wishful thinking goes a long way. Of course, the there's the part about taking responsibility for your role in any perceived loss, injury or injustice. Failure to do so just turns you into a whinny-ass pretend martyr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StillLooking Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 End, I'm going to say this awkwardly. Please take from it whatever you want. Looking for certainty is a dead end, and a dangerous one. With the possible exception of death there are no guarantees of anything at all, and IMO it's more important to react appropriately to the gusts of wind that mess up our lives. I've pretty much given up on ideas like true love, absolute safety, and perfect justice, and deal with the world moment by moment and case by case. I observe as impartially as I can, and treat problem situations with curiosity rather than fear or outrage. All you need is the knowledge that you've made it this far; and the confidence that whatever the situation, you can do something about it. It may sound cynical and even cold, but it's more useful and a darned sight less exhausting than the hot-and-cold running emotions I used to have. end3, read this Astreja's post carefully. This is an invaluable advice, something that your therapist should give you if he/she is competent and is not afraid to offend you. I used to worry a lot if I cannot see the end of the tunnel whenever I was doing a project. It was fine for a while but then I have family and kids. I cannot be certain that my husband will still treat me nicely 10 years from now, I cannot be certain that my kids will turn out to be okay. That is nothing I can do to assure 100% certainty about that. Sometimes the frustration of being unable to control the future rears its ugly head in my mind however I have to see the big picture again what is important now and in the future. A simple example: I sometimes worry after I don't give adequate emotional support for my husband, I believe thing like this happens in every marriage. I can worry about this to no end or I can apologize, let it go and keep in my mind to support my husband better next time. It will ruin the moment if I worry too much about this and apologize endlessly to my husband. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 Of course, the there's the part about taking responsibility for your role in any perceived loss, injury or injustice. Failure to do so just turns you into a whinny-ass pretend martyr. End, I'm going to say this awkwardly. Please take from it whatever you want. Looking for certainty is a dead end, and a dangerous one. With the possible exception of death there are no guarantees of anything at all, and IMO it's more important to react appropriately to the gusts of wind that mess up our lives. I've pretty much given up on ideas like true love, absolute safety, and perfect justice, and deal with the world moment by moment and case by case. I observe as impartially as I can, and treat problem situations with curiosity rather than fear or outrage. All you need is the knowledge that you've made it this far; and the confidence that whatever the situation, you can do something about it. It may sound cynical and even cold, but it's more useful and a darned sight less exhausting than the hot-and-cold running emotions I used to have. I think I'm moving in that direction because now I turn these angers/hurts into a constructive direction.....i.e. moving on with the priorities that are fulfilling for me and my personal goals. But, the hurts are triggered and I become less stable on and off. Let me give you one example. I have been driving 400 to 600 miles per week to help coach my son's 3rd grade football team. A few emotions typically happen during these trips. One, there is joy and love in participating and helping my children an other children. Two, there is contempt for my ex wife for choosing to abandon our marriage and causing these efforts just to participate with my children. And I'm not denying that I played no role in our separation and I take responsibility. But here's where it meshes with the past. If I don't choose to participate, then these times are gone. I'm afraid of them being gone and I can't get them back. It's like death. It's like if I choose to let go, they will die and it will be of my choosing. I don't understand. I'm just trying to put the feelings to words. So I am controlling of my environment and people....less so than I used to be and have happiness based on codependency. Probably have mentioned this before but I'm going to now. When I was a young boy, our family dog was put down while we were gone to my grandparents. I was raised from birth with that dog. She was just gone. When my parents divorced, after my father basically abandoned us, my mother took my two dogs and took them back to the breeder before we had to move under the pretense that we would go get them after we moved. We never got them back. In the past three years I have had a divorce and right before the divorce, my father in law accidentally backed over our old dog that couldn't hear very well. He and my ex wife never told me and took the body and threw it out. I had to confront them and tell them to get the body back so I could bury him. Disgusting people. It's seems more easy to say, oh, it's a choice to say the wind blows this way and that, but realistically it's made me hurt and angry....and not by my choosing....mostly through others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astreja Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 I hear you, End -- You've been through a lot, and all your emotions are legitimate responses to that. I know from personal experience how powerful anger can be. It can be energizing, triggering an adrenaline response that makes the whole nervous system go into overdrive. It's a roller coaster, though, with a horrendous crash at the end of the ride. It can also be insanely difficult to let the anger fade if you've been wronged and there's no vindication or restitution in sight. From the point of view of physical health, though, it's not a good place to be over the long term. Even if you only reduce the intensity or duration of your anger by 10%, it'll help. Remember the past but also let it be the past, so that you have energy for the life you're building now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 End, In the light of the new direction this thread's taken, I'm putting what I wrote in post # 224 on hold. Come back to it whenever you want. For the record, I'm a divorced man and I've lost my dad to Parkinson's disease, my mom to dementia and my brother Paul (at the age of 21, me 14) to an undetected heart condition. I've had my job of 23 years taken away from me by market forces (so the management said!) and at one stage I was reduced to shoveling cowshit to get some dollars in. So I can empathize with some of the pain in your life. Please take the sound advice given to you here and get back to me when you're ready. Thanks, BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted September 14, 2015 Share Posted September 14, 2015 We all have events like this in our past. The loss of a pet. The loss of a loved one. Loss is painful. Pain hurts. We experience suffering. From there we can imagine what it is like to be in another situation when we see somebody else suffering. Then we can weigh which behaviors cause the most suffering for others and which prevent the most suffering in others. That is where we get good and evil. We call the preventing great suffering "good" and we call causing great suffering "evil". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gall Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 "So, we are supposed to not judge God when he orders murder in scripture, doesn't answer prayers (or answers only weird, small stuff like parking space requests when there are huge problems in the world that sure could use divine intervention), and has a holy book that is not supported by science in its crucial parts. We are supposed to just trust that it's all for a some kind of greater good in both our lives and in eternity." ~ yunea God is the eternal supreme being. It might help to think about all the science fiction space stories and movies...and then try to go light years beyond our imaginations. We can't do it. We are not God. you may accept this but don't expect anyone using reason to do so. Without proof you are just making claims that cannot be verified. then you invoke fiction to try and prove your point...I think a better thing to "think" about is why you need to use ficiton to substantiate what you perceive as reality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted September 17, 2015 Share Posted September 17, 2015 Changed my mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 "you may accept this but don't expect anyone using reason to do so.Without proof you are just making claims that cannot be verified. then you invoke fiction to try and prove your point...I think a better thing to "think" about is why you need to use ficiton to substantiate what you perceive as reality?" ~gall Without proof? I see a lot of reasons to believe there is a God. What you accept is your choice. Good luck with trying to put God in a test tube for verification. Fiction and reality? I think J.R.R Tolkien wrote a few thoughts on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdelsolray Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 "you may accept this but don't expect anyone using reason to do so. Without proof you are just making claims that cannot be verified. then you invoke fiction to try and prove your point...I think a better thing to "think" about is why you need to use ficiton to substantiate what you perceive as reality?" ~gall Without proof? I see a lot of reasons to believe there is a God. What you accept is your choice. Good luck with trying to put God in a test tube for verification. Fiction and reality? I think J.R.R Tolkien wrote a few thoughts on that. Notice the goalpost moving that Tin Pony has done here. Gall was responding to previous gnostic statements by Tin Pony, specifically the following: ... God is the eternal supreme being. It might help to think about all the science fiction space stories and movies...and then try to go light years beyond our imaginations. We can't do it. We are not God. you may accept this but don't expect anyone using reason to do so. Without proof you are just making claims that cannot be verified. then you invoke fiction to try and prove your point...I think a better thing to "think" about is why you need to use ficiton to substantiate what you perceive as reality? Tin Pony has moved the goalposts: He's watered down his gnostic claims (i.e., claims of knowledge) to claims of 'reasons to believe', which are agnostic statements. Of course he invokes fiction. It's all he has. Slimy, to say the least. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Good luck with trying to put God in a test tube for verification. the irony. It burns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Did I miss the comment on J.R.R Tolkien? It was relevant to the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Did I miss the comment on J.R.R Tolkien? It was relevant to the topic. It was vague. "JRR wrote a few things". Umm . . . so what if he did? Tolkien was a bit like Paul in that they were both fiction writers. Though Tolkien had talent but Paul did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 "It was vague. "JRR wrote a few things". Umm . . . so what if he did? Tolkien was a bit like Paul in that they were both fiction writers. Though Tolkien had talent but Paul did not." ~mymistake I thought it was specific. "Fiction and reality? I think J.R.R Tolkien wrote a few thoughts on that." ` ~ironhorse I think Tolkien would disagree with you on Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 "It was vague. "JRR wrote a few things". Umm . . . so what if he did? Tolkien was a bit like Paul in that they were both fiction writers. Though Tolkien had talent but Paul did not." ~mymistake I thought it was specific. "Fiction and reality? I think J.R.R Tolkien wrote a few thoughts on that." ` No, that is not specific. That is the opposite of specific. It is vague. The phrase "a few thoughts on that" could mean almost anything he wrote. I think Tolkien would disagree with you on Paul. Even if that were so, Tolkien's opinion would not make God real. You are suppose to show that God is real but all you can do is show that some people have beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 ... but Tolkien is an 'authority'... That should count for something if I appeal to him right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 "Good luck with trying to put God in a test tube for verification." "I see a lot of reasons to believe there is a God." ..... I'd rather not have to 'create' a God in my head like religious people do. I'd rather not have to believe in a God. I'd rather he just be present and real. But he isnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yunea Posted September 28, 2015 Author Share Posted September 28, 2015 Good luck with trying to put God in a test tube for verification. Wait a sec. Even after I deconverted, I've been told that if I "just prayed", God would "surely" answer and I'd "know" he's real. Yet in another context Christians say it can't be tested, only taken on faith. Hmmm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Ok ironhorse, You see a lot of reasons to believe to believe there is a god. Present us with your best one, sparing no detail as to exactly and specifically what this reason is. Go for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted September 28, 2015 Share Posted September 28, 2015 Good luck with trying to put God in a test tube for verification. We don't need luck. We all know on this site you neither believe in, nor obey the god of the bible, but worship a god of your own making in your head, a god that you're comfortable with. As far as man made god like jehovah and jesus and allah, it is beyond easy to verify their non existence. Just obey (insert god of choice here) and the scriptures they supposedly inspired and watch as their promises fail 100% of the time. It is through putting god(s) to the test (in a test tube) that we can see that they are fake....man made. Maybe someday you'll actually develop the courage to study the history of christianity and see for yourself how embarrassingly laughable it's origin is. I never understand how people can claim they believe in something and yet know absolutely nothing about what they claim to believe in. Nice of you to keep to your 'I only show up every two weeks to start shit and misquote the bible' schedule. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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