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Panentheism Makes A Lot Of Sense To Me


FlowerDemon

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Even when I was a Christian, I had a view of God that was similar to what's known as Panentheism (not to be confused with Pantheism). Just recently I read into it and I was like "Hey...this sounds like a view that makes more sense to me, and I saw it this way for a while."

 

Here's how I explain it. Panentheism means "all in God." So it's like, the universe as we know it is a part of God. God is in the world and the world is in God. God is a part of the universe and is in everyone and everything, but at the same time, God extends beyond the universe, aka is greater/higher than the universe. 

 

If that didn't make sense, check out this Wiki page about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism It is a little hard to explain. Just imagine a little circle surrounded in a giant circle. The little circle represents the universe, the big circle represents God. God is in the world and the world is in God, but he also goes beyond everything that we know.

 

It makes sense to me because it's like...it explains the unexplainable. Everything that doesn't make sense about this life, it could be said that it's because God is beyond us and beyond our comprehension, and some things will just never make sense to us. Also, I like how it's unlike Christianity, which claims that God is completely separate from the world and we must "reach out to him" so to speak. Christianity also assumes so much about God's character, and his intentions, etc...I didn't like how Christianity acts as if it knows all about God's will.

 

As much as I like the concept of Pantheism, I don't like how it claims that God is the world and leaves it at that. What I really like about Panentheism is, it settles the argument about whether God is separate from the universe, or is the universe. It suggests that both could be possible. It also explains why God isn't always invested in every individual's life, like it is believed in Christianity. God isn't a personal savior type of deity, doesn't ask you to confess your sins, doesn't command that you get saved, or anything like that. There's only so much we can know and understand about God, since God is beyond all that we know. However, we still have religion/spirituality to connect to the Higher Power if one wants to, to connect to aspects of God.

 

Embracing the view of Panentheism gives me more flexibility in whatever spiritual path I choose. Many different beliefs fit this kind of view. So whatever path I decide to go on, I won't have to worry about contradicting myself with conflicting ideas like I did as a Christian. For example, it could be possible to be a Polytheistic Panentheist, because the many gods could be viewed as parts of the one Higher Power. Even though I am no longer a Christian, I still believe in a higher power, and as soon as I read about Panentheism, it was in sync with my personal views/beliefs and it was like reading about my own thoughts of God.

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Hi FlowerDemon!   LeslieWave.gif

 

You should make contact with the JoshPantera. 

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/user/20619-joshpantera/#.VfB6EhFVhBc 

 

I know that he'd be very happy to make your acquaintance.

 

He and I have discussed Panentheism and Pantheism at length.

 

smile.png

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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Hi-

I am also very drawn to panentheism. Glad to see you here :-) Here's the link to a Panentheism message board I'm on, you might find it interesting: http://www.religiousforums.com/forums/pantheism-panentheism-dir.330/

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Right on. I'll send him a message, and I'll check out that message board sometime.

 

Honestly I have always been drawn to earth based spirituality, such as paganism. Panentheism also suggests that nature is a part of God, which is another thing I love about this view. Every time I look at nature, I see something so beautiful, it goes beyond my comprehension that I live on such a beautiful planet. It makes sense to me that this beauty is a part of God, but only scratches the surface of who God is. It feels great to admit "I have had my own personal experiences with God, but there is still so much I will never know about God." As a Christian, I always wanted to stand with the view "I believe in heaven and hell, but I'm open to the possibility of it not existing." Of course that view is not popular among Christians because it contradicts what the Bible says.

 

Now I can be happy with not knowing all the answers. Learning and gaining more knowledge/wisdom is great, don't get me wrong, but I cannot stand how Christianity stands in a position where the Christian thinks he KNOWS he is right about his view of God/the afterlife/the purpose of life/etc. I feel happier not taking such an extreme like that...because none of us will ever fully understand it and who am I to say that my views are right while another's are wrong? As a Christian, I was always so stressed because I had so many questions about the Bible/Biblical God/Christianity, and I was always trying to rationalize it all so my beliefs would line up with the Bible. Now I don't have to go through that struggle anymore. I can have whatever views/ideas I want, without feeling like I'm sinning against the "one true god" who knows what's best for me.

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If a person is seeking some form of spirituality I can see why Panentheism would be on their list of potential options. If I was seeking some form of spirituality I think Panentheism would probably be high on my list of alternatives to investigate. When I was still in my searching stage I admit I was intrigued by Panentheism as a spiritual substitute for Christianity. I still would rank it a better alternative than Deism. I'm just not sure what to do with any spiritual option that presents "God" as an inactive bystander.

 

I kind of like the idea of "Being in God" but I can't wrap my head around that concept so I essentially don't know what it means. As I understand it a Panentheistic God doesn't require worship nor does it interact with creation, so I just don't know how to relate to that kind of "God". Spirituality sounds good but I confess I have no idea how to achieve it. How does someone become spiritual? I have no idea but I am open to suggestions.

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I have a couple thoughts:
 
 

When I was still in my searching stage I admit I was intrigued by Panentheism as a spiritual substitute for Christianity. I still would rank it a better alternative than Deism.

 
 
It seems useful to point out first of all that panentheism, pantheism, deism, and etc are not really "spiritual paths", per se. They are terms that describe different theological conceptions. So for example it seems somewhat confused to me to think of panentheism as a "spiritual substitute to Christianity". For one thing, there are certain traditions in Christianity which could be described as embracing a panentheistic theology. I'm thinking especially of eastern orthodoxy. Because the terms just describe certain theological ideas, it's not really true that, for example, a "panentheistic" God doesn't require worship. The idea of worship is neither prescribed nor dismissed by panentheism as such. A religious tradition may involve some particular theological view that could be described as pantheistic, panentheistic, deistic, monotheistic, or even atheistic, but those terms don't give a complete description of the theology with regard to worship or other typical religious expressions.
 
 

Everything that doesn't make sense about this life, it could be said that it's because God is beyond us and beyond our comprehension, and some things will just never make sense to us.

 
 
To me, this sounds like you might be interested in apophatic theology. I would point out also that this idea is not unique to panentheism. For example, almost all traditional Christian theology, whether panentheistic or not, declares God to be beyond comprehension, as do other religions. So it's not quite as simple as thinking that panentheism says God is beyond comprehension while Christianity does not. Panentheism in and of itself doesn't say anything about whether God is knowable, but that's where the distinction between apophatic and cataphatic theology comes in.
 
The theological idea that nothing we say about God is adequate to describe the reality is called apophasis. To give an example, when medieval European Christianity focused on defining God in terms like omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and the like, they were engaged in what is called cataphatic theology, i.e by giving positive descriptions. Apophatic theology begins by saying that God can't be known or described, and by denying the ultimate validity of anything said about God, and yet still proceeds to characterize that Divinity, in a round-about way, through various negations. It's essentially a principle that recognizes a fundamental limitation to human knowledge from the outset.

 

The strength, as it were, of apophatic approaches is that they tend to be less dogmatic (since they deny the possibility of absolute knowledge), but of course that is also a weakness from a different perspective. Rationally speaking, an entirely unknown and unknowable God perhaps doesn't resolve any questions. It simply accepts the unanswerability of those same questions. However, most religious traditions that emphasize apophatic theology also emphasize the idea of personal experience and a practical spiritual path, in which the goal is not so much an abstract conceptual knowledge, or "correct" dogma, but some experience of a fullness of life, which is symbolized as an experience of that Divine aspect of reality. Because they tend to emphasize that direct experience, they tend towards something like panentheism which allows for God to be present in experience, because the world is in God rather than being utterly transcendent.
 
 

How does one become spiritual?

 
 
The word spiritual is tricky to define. Etymologically and conceptually I think it's very tied to Christian anthropology, in which a "spiritual" life is being contrasted to the life of the "flesh", but that definition involves a whole bunch of background ideas from a Christian worldview which you may be wishing to shed. My biased and personal opinion is that, from the standpoint of developing an ex-Christian spirituality, it makes sense to think of "being spiritual" in terms of seeking out a full and holistically harmonious way of living, emphasizing the importance of practice over speculative theology. Theological terms like panentheism and pantheism are useful insofar as different theological conceptions give rise to different practices, and for that reason I think an apophatic and panentheistic theology is more useful than the dogmatic monotheism of much western Christianity, but ultimately what matters is finding out who you are, what life means to you, and how to be a whole person.
 
There are many ways in which someone could pursue those aims. Traditional forms of spirituality with these goals often emphasize self-inquiry, meditation, cultivation of virtues like detachment, forgiveness of self and others, kindness, and etc. To me, the goal of most of these practices is first to become aware of our own thoughts and the unconscious fears, prejudices, assumptions, and patterns of thinking that we perpetuate solely because we're unaware of them, despite the fact that they harm us. This is one of the primary purposes of practices like silent meditation.  It's a way of becoming more honest with ourselves, become able to forgive ourselves, and out of that increased awareness and wisdom about ourselves flows the ability to treat ourselves and others well. None of this really depends on having a particular theology. That is one of the great insights of Buddhism. You can be an atheist and pursue "spirituality" so defined.
 
It seems to me that, just in terms of human knowledge, many theological conceptions are dubious and unhelpful. I don't think panentheism really "settles the argument about whether God is separate from the universe", it simply proposes that a theology which sees a Divine reality as embracing the world is more useful, which I think is true for a variety of reasons, but it doesn't prove by argument that such a reality exists. In any case, the successes of science, technology, and methodological naturalism broadly speaking challenge traditional theologies and the mythological worldviews that they are embedded in. I think what we are looking for is not so much just a new abstract theology (panentheism, deism, or otherwise) but a new worldview in which to integrate the success of naturalism with humanistic concerns that are addressed by questions like "how do I live a good life?" I think a good place to start answering "How do I become spiritual?" is with practical concerns about life, and let those be the guide, rather than with theology.

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Just wanted to note that I checked out the referenced religious forum.com. When I logged on my malware security lit up like a Christmas tree warning me it is an infected site.

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Would you mind PM'ing me a log of what your malware detection software says about the site? I'm quite curious, and if there is actually malware on there I could make sure it gets removed

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It didn't say anything specific about the site WN. It indicated it was blocking malware strikes & the warning was pretty much continuous. I noted the attacks because my malware security doesn't warn me like that very often. I immediately logged off the site.

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If a person is seeking some form of spirituality I can see why Panentheism would be on their list of potential options. If I was seeking some form of spirituality I think Panentheism would probably be high on my list of alternatives to investigate. When I was still in my searching stage I admit I was intrigued by Panentheism as a spiritual substitute for Christianity. I still would rank it a better alternative than Deism. I'm just not sure what to do with any spiritual option that presents "God" as an inactive bystander.

 

I kind of like the idea of "Being in God" but I can't wrap my head around that concept so I essentially don't know what it means. As I understand it a Panentheistic God doesn't require worship nor does it interact with creation, so I just don't know how to relate to that kind of "God". Spirituality sounds good but I confess I have no idea how to achieve it. How does someone become spiritual? I have no idea but I am open to suggestions.

Panentheism isn't necessarily about Judeo-Christian concepts of God, but merely use the term God as one of convenience to describe the unknowable force behind

the universe;. It's not necessarily anthropomorphic.

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Just wanted to note that I checked out the referenced religious forum.com. When I logged on my malware security lit up like a Christmas tree warning me it is an infected site.

I'm on that forum every single day to no ill effect. I'm not sure what's up with your malware detector, but well named is a computer programmer who is also a mod on the site and if you send him the info he can get it sorted.

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Unfortunately, I'm not tech savvy. I have malware bytes on my computer. When it detects the presence of malware it gives me a warning & indicates it blocked the attempted intrusion. I have no idea what to send to you guys or even how to send it to you.

 

I realize that isn't very helpful but I chose the screen name geezer for a reason. I can operate software I've been trained on but I have no clue what makes any of it work. If that happened to me I assume it has happened to others too. Hopefully, it has happened to someone who can be more helpful to you, so you can fix the problem.

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Everything that doesn't make sense about this life, it could be said that it's because God is beyond us and beyond our comprehension, and some things will just never make sense to us.

 
 

 

To me, this sounds like you might be interested in apophatic theology. I would point out also that this idea is not unique to panentheism. For example, almost all traditional Christian theology, whether panentheistic or not, declares God to be beyond comprehension, as do other religions. So it's not quite as simple as thinking that panentheism says God is beyond comprehension while Christianity does not. Panentheism in and of itself doesn't say anything about whether God is knowable, but that's where the distinction between apophatic and cataphatic theology comes in.
 
The theological idea that nothing we say about God is adequate to describe the reality is called apophasis. To give an example, when medieval European Christianity focused on defining God in terms like omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and the like, they were engaged in what is called cataphatic theology, i.e by giving positive descriptions. Apophatic theology begins by saying that God can't be known or described, and by denying the ultimate validity of anything said about God, and yet still proceeds to characterize that Divinity, in a round-about way, through various negations. It's essentially a principle that recognizes a fundamental limitation to human knowledge from the outset.

 

The strength, as it were, of apophatic approaches is that they tend to be less dogmatic (since they deny the possibility of absolute knowledge), but of course that is also a weakness from a different perspective. Rationally speaking, an entirely unknown and unknowable God perhaps doesn't resolve any questions. It simply accepts the unanswerability of those same questions. However, most religious traditions that emphasize apophatic theology also emphasize the idea of personal experience and a practical spiritual path, in which the goal is not so much an abstract conceptual knowledge, or "correct" dogma, but some experience of a fullness of life, which is symbolized as an experience of that Divine aspect of reality. Because they tend to emphasize that direct experience, they tend towards something like panentheism which allows for God to be present in experience, because the world is in God rather than being utterly transcendent.

 

I looked up apophatic theology the other day and a lot of it makes sense, i'll have to look more into that. But you are right in saying that the idea is not unique to panentheism. I also realize that panentheism doesn't specifically say whether God is knowable, however, the idea of God going beyond all that this universe is..kind of suggests the fact that there is so much about God we don't know. In other words, since Panentheism believes that the universe is a part of God, but God is also beyond the universe, it would make sense to say that our knowledge/understanding of God is limited. I can see how that line of thinking crosses with apophatic theology, however, I disagree with where apophatic theology stands about God being divinely simple. I believe God is a complex being and if anyone wants to connect to the Higher Power, they can do so through multiple spiritual paths. I believe God has many faces, which is why man created so many religions/spiritual paths to connect to the Higher Power in a way that makes sense to them. 

 

The way I view God can't really be fit into a label, but Panentheism is the closest match to me. I'm the type of person who takes some wisdom from any kind of spiritual/religious/philosophical thing I read about, and I apply it to my own personal spiritual path. 

 

I also agree with the apophatic idea that the personal experience of fullness of life, an experience of the Divine aspect of reality, is more important than having "correct" dogma. Please share more information with me abou apophatic traditions that hold this kind of view.

 

 

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If a person is seeking some form of spirituality I can see why Panentheism would be on their list of potential options. If I was seeking some form of spirituality I think Panentheism would probably be high on my list of alternatives to investigate. When I was still in my searching stage I admit I was intrigued by Panentheism as a spiritual substitute for Christianity. I still would rank it a better alternative than Deism. I'm just not sure what to do with any spiritual option that presents "God" as an inactive bystander.

 

I kind of like the idea of "Being in God" but I can't wrap my head around that concept so I essentially don't know what it means. As I understand it a Panentheistic God doesn't require worship nor does it interact with creation, so I just don't know how to relate to that kind of "God". Spirituality sounds good but I confess I have no idea how to achieve it. How does someone become spiritual? I have no idea but I am open to suggestions.

 

 

This diagram help illustrate the idea of the universe being in God, and God being in the universe. It's kind of like Pantheism, where God is the universe, but it goes a step further in saying that God also goes beyond all that we know. It is kind of hard to wrap your head around the concept because the concept of God is so huge and complex and kind of confusing. 

 

And it's not that God is an inactive bystander. We are all a part of God, since the universe is a part of God. God changes as our world changes. This world is only a fraction of who God is. And since we live in a world where a loving caring personal God doesn't seem to exist, it would make sense to say that since God is also beyond the universe then why would he care specifically for this one planet? Not to say that we can't have our own spirituality connected to a Higher Power, but to me it would make sense that God is the essence of what is. God is like the spirit of the universe. 

 

I'm sorry if I am being confusing, I'm trying to word the way I view Higher Power the best that I can. With all of this being said, anything is possible. This is the view that makes most sense to me and I encourage all people to find their own view that makes sense to them. And that includes not believing in any god.

 

As to how to be Spiritual, here's the definition of the word:

 

spir·it·u·al
ˈspiriCH(əw)əl/
adjective
 
  1. 1.
    of, relating to, or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.
    "I'm responsible for his spiritual welfare"
    synonyms:

    nonmaterialincorporealintangibleMore

     

     

     Meditation and prayer are 2 examples. It is not limited to those kinds of practices though. Going on a walk through nature and revering nature's beauty, listening to a peaceful song that takes you to a calm state of mind, pretty much anything that is void of materialistic things and focuses on the soul. Things that make you feel peaceful, happy, content, clear headed, etc. Being spiritual is different for every person so don't limit to the ideas I listed only. I'm spiritual in the sense that I revere nature, I take walks and am in awe of how beautiful of a world we live in, and I connect to the side of myself that is peaceful and feels "at one with nature," and closer to God. I meditate to clear my head of unneeded stress, tension, and negativity. But like I said, it's different for every person.

     

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The diagram is lovely, but has a Christian bias. Not all panentheism is Christian. Hinduism is panentheistic, so is animism. And my panenetheistic belief has NOTHING to do with an anthropomorphic god. In a way, it's not panentheism that's interesting, it the concept of "god" that one  attaches it to that's interesting.

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The diagram is lovely, but has a Christian bias. Not all panentheism is Christian. Hinduism is panentheistic, so is animism. And my panenetheistic belief has NOTHING to do with an anthropomorphic god. In a way, it's not panentheism that's interesting, it the concept of "god" that one  attaches it to that's interesting.

didnt realize the picture had a christian bias, but i agree with you on what you said. I like how panentheism can fit into pretty much any kind of religion/spirituality. Recently I discovered that my spiritual path is closest to Panentheism, Paganism, and earth-based spirituality. 

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Please share more information with me abou apophatic traditions that hold this kind of view.

Sorry I've been so slow to respond.

 

This is a trickier question than you might think. Almost every major world religion includes at least some school of theology that explores these themes, but if the goal is to consider participating in a religious community, it's problematic because they tend to be minorities within each religion, or the experience of a particular group might vary tremendously. I think Buddhism probably most straightforwardly values practice over theory and an extremely apophatic theology, but sometimes its apophatic to the point of being effectively atheist in some traditions. Or, you might be interested in Advaita Vedanta as an Indian tradition.

 

My interest in this subject arose after exploring various ancient Christian theologians in the eastern orthodox tradition, and so I know more about that than anything else, but it may be less interesting to you (and also slightly out of place here :P) since it is still very Christian.

 

A more modern and pluralistic writer who I love is Raimon Panikkar, who discusses these kinds of topics in depth, integrating ideas from Hinduism, Buddhism, and Christianity. A good and brief introduction to his thought is in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Experience-God-Icons-Mystery/dp/0800638255/

 

Unfortunately there aren't great online resources for his ideas.

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  • 2 weeks later...
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The diagram is lovely, but has a Christian bias. Not all panentheism is Christian. Hinduism is panentheistic, so is animism. And my panenetheistic belief has NOTHING to do with an anthropomorphic god. In a way, it's not panentheism that's interesting, it the concept of "god" that one  attaches it to that's interesting.

didnt realize the picture had a christian bias, but i agree with you on what you said. I like how panentheism can fit into pretty much any kind of religion/spirituality. Recently I discovered that my spiritual path is closest to Panentheism, Paganism, and earth-based spirituality. 

 

 

Hey Flower Demon, I responded to your PM but I'll address the issue of Pantheism and Panentheism here for all to read and consider. I'm a very unique sort of Pantheist who will combine the two in my own thinking. 

 

My Pantheism arose from a study of comparative world mythology through Joseph Campbell. I was focused on the claim that God is a metaphor for the mystery of all of existence. Why does anything exist? God. Where did everything come from? God. God is omni - everything, including omnipresent. I kept thinking about that. It's about the mystery of everything and at the same time totality of all of existence. The mystery of existence is simply the unknown aspect of anything that exists. And that makes the mythological God who's present everywhere, simply the fabric and structure of existence itself presented as a supreme being or deity or some anthropomorphic story line character. The omni-present God with no beginning or end, who's mystery is too deep to fathom, is a place holder for the real mystery of existence itself and it's infinite and eternal reaches. 

 

What is both here right now in the universe as all of the universe, and also infinitely beyond the universe too? 

 

The fabric and structure of existence itself is the only thing that is present everywhere and common to everything. Void, material, here and everywhere simultaneously, you name it. Everything that exists, any and everywhere near or far is nothing more than the fabric of existence itself (God) extending out forever and ever.

 

So from my understanding the term Pantheism meaning, "All is God," means God is existence itself, or basically "all" of everything.

 

I don't necessarily need to use the term Panentheism because my definition of God as "All" that exists has no limitation and is not bound to the universe alone. And it agrees with the notion of the finite universe existing "within" the scheme of a greater surrounding environment. It's just that, environments within environments all natural and all cosmos. 

 

Basically your diagram of God surrounding the universe can be viewed differently. Scratch out God and instead write, "Greater existence." Then scratch out Universe and instead write, "Existence." And the whole thing may come into greater focus. lol

 

Existence is here and out there = God is everything in and beyond the universe....

 

Existence can't have a fixed beginning = God has no beginning or end....

 

This is like a handy little key that can unlock much confusion in mythology and religion.....

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Once I accumulated enough information that convinced me the Bible isn't true & religion & god was created by humans, I was done with all of it. I have had no desire for anything God related in my life since & that includes seeking anything of a spiritual nature to replace the void religion left in my life.

 

BUT, what you posted Josh is intriguing. I have no problem accepting evolution as fact, but if fails to answer all the questions, at least for me. I've never seen Pantheism presented the way you just did. Your version is unique & worthy of further exploration & consideration.

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I too found myself drawn to panentheism, even for a number of years when I was still a 'christian,' I more or less believed in something very much resembling it. I can't say that I still do, but I did always find the idea to be the most rational god suggestion.

 

On a side note, would one who ascribes to panentheism assert the universe = god, as in the sum total of physical laws and their practical results is that which we call god?

 

I merely ask because I was never really able to divorce religion, or even spirituality, from the supernatural and the above proposition makes little room for the supernatural.

 

Either way, it is a subject that I think will always continue to intrigue me.

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I too found myself drawn to panentheism, even for a number of years when I was still a 'christian,' I more or less believed in something very much resembling it. I can't say that I still do, but I did always find the idea to be the most rational god suggestion.

 

On a side note, would one who ascribes to panentheism assert the universe = god, as in the sum total of physical laws and their practical results is that which we call god?

 

I merely ask because I was never really able to divorce religion, or even spirituality, from the supernatural and the above proposition makes little room for the supernatural.

 

Either way, it is a subject that I think will always continue to intrigue me.

Well, technicially it's *Pantheism* that says the universe=god. I'm a panentheist (=god is immanent AND transcendent), but here's the issue--the use of the word "God". When I think of panentheism, I don't think of "god" in any judeo-xtian biblegod, anthropomorphic way, I'm more thinking like "the unknowable force behind the universe that is both IN everything and ABOVE, or the BASIS FOR everything. It's a little unconventional, but actually not as rare as you might think.

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Ok, so it is an unknowable force. Then it really was very much how I thought for the latter few years of my 'christian' faith. 

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Pantheism is when you believe the universe is god. Panentheism is when you believe that the the universe is a part of god, but god also goes beyond the universe and beyond all realms of reality that we understand. That's why there is no absolute truth or one right religion, god goes beyond this whole universe, god is not something we can ever understand 100% regardless of what our beliefs are.

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I too found myself drawn to panentheism, even for a number of years when I was still a 'christian,' I more or less believed in something very much resembling it. I can't say that I still do, but I did always find the idea to be the most rational god suggestion.

 

On a side note, would one who ascribes to panentheism assert the universe = god, as in the sum total of physical laws and their practical results is that which we call god?

 

I merely ask because I was never really able to divorce religion, or even spirituality, from the supernatural and the above proposition makes little room for the supernatural.

 

Either way, it is a subject that I think will always continue to intrigue me.

Well, technicially it's *Pantheism* that says the universe=god. I'm a panentheist (=god is immanent AND transcendent), but here's the issue--the use of the word "God". When I think of panentheism, I don't think of "god" in any judeo-xtian biblegod, anthropomorphic way, I'm more thinking like "the unknowable force behind the universe that is both IN everything and ABOVE, or the BASIS FOR everything. It's a little unconventional, but actually not as rare as you might think.

 

Orbit, when I use the term "god", i am referring to what you described. god is just a shorter word to use so i don't have to type all of that lol. 

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