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Goodbye Jesus

I Really Hate What Deconverting Does To Friendships...


Insightful

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I'm about to have lunch with my former pastor today.  Even though we no longer see eye to eye on spiritual things, I still really love the guy.  He is a dear friend - genuine and kind.  I imagine that many pastors don't truly believe Christianity is true, but they keep up the charade because their whole life is built around it - including their income.  But then there are others that sincerely believe it's true.  My former pastor is this latter kind.

 

He knows I've been "struggling" with my faith - a term that I hate, BTW.  "Struggling" implies that the problem is with ME and MY inability to believe rather than the inherent implausibilty of Christian doctrine.  Anyway, he doesn't know that I've moved farther away from belief than when we last talked - to the point where I would describe myself as agnostic with VERY liberal Christian leanings (meaning I love the not-uniquely-Christian values of justice, mercy, love, compassion, forgiveness, humility, etc).  But I do not believe in the supernatural elements... 

 

What I hate is that my lack of belief AUTOMATICALLY changes forever my relationships with my believing friends.  As soon as the cat is out of the bag, I shift in the other person's mind from "Ally" to "Other".  From "person" to "project".  From "brother" to "lost".  Now my "salvation" becomes the central focus of the relationship, whereas before we could share about work and family and life.  Now I'm outside the club - pitied for my blinded eyes and poor choices to believe the "lies of the enemy".

 

I HATE this.

 

I know that many of you have said that "if a person can't accept you and want to be your friend regardless of your belief then f--- them, they never were your friend."  But to me, it's much more complex.  They WERE my friend - but my friends are also trapped in a system of belief that jacks up their thinking to the point that they HAVE to view me as wrong in my unbelief.  They're stuck and I feel sorry for them.

 

So, rather than blow them off, I'm going to try to love them inspite of what their faith makes them believe about me.  My hope is that they will see that I'm still the same guy who is just as loving, thoughtful, compassionate, and principled as I ever was.  I am willing to endure their "involuntary contempt" of me for the sake of helping them have a broadened horizon.  I see myself and my friendship as an opportunity to help them see out of their narrow tunnel and to have a bigger view of the world.

 

It's easier to blow them off and say "screw you if you don't accept me for ME."  But I'm going to stay in it and see where it leads...

 

But it sure sucks being seen as so wrong/misguided/morally inferior.

 

Can anyone relate?

 

 

 

 

 

I

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All religions that I'm aware of possess traits that are commonly associated with cults. These traits are vital to their survival. Religions, especially the more conservative ones, are protected communities. Entrance into these communities is restricted to members who have been vetted, respect the rules, and comply with the groups stated beliefs and traditions, and don't cause problems.

 

Those who voluntarily leave, or are asked to leave, automatically become one of "them" because they are no longer one of "us". This has always been the case and it likely always will be.

 

Leaving your religion, especially if it's a fundamentalists version of Christianity, will almost certainly destroy your social structure because you are then viewed as a trader, also known as a agent of the Devil. If you were really one of us you would never have left us, does that sound familiar?

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It sucks pretty bad

 

I really support your choice to try to keep your relationships instead of the (f*@K them they were never my friends approach), as long as its not any abusive context etc. from my experience some relationships will be impossible to mend, (i liked your coining of the project not a person), really does apply for some, my former youth pastors do not look at me in a positive way, i guess i remind them of their failure lol. I made the decision to cut myself off from my friends, which wasn't necessary and quite damaging to myself. I have recently began to rebuild those relationships and its not easy but worth it, they are still really cool people on the inside that I really enjoy hanging out with.

 

one tip i would share is don't really bring up your faith that much (don't make yourself a prisoner in your own life though), it makes the situation very uncomfortable and changes the tone of the conversation into reminding them they should convert you. most of my friends are happy not being sure of where i stand. I realize they may notice your absence from church and ask about it, so do what you think is best. 

 

also if you know any non-christians or people with very liberal christian beliefs similar to yours, be open to making friends with them. a couple of wrong scandals and no-one in your old church could talk to you again, its happened to others.

 

hope everything works out great for you 

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I stay as soft and loving also Insightful. I have a friend that I hang out with and he came out of the closet and admitted it to me and I helped him a lot this summer. We are all in a nice little gang together. But he is very opinionated and I recommend that he just stay quiet about this so we wouldn't upset our little group. (which I knew would!) He almost ruined the gang by the end of the summer (because he wanted the whole world to know that he was atheist) and I had to get quite aggressive with him because he turned into a Richard Dawkin!! It's a wonderful thing to be proud of being an atheist but still, 85% of the world are believers (even those in the new age beliefs) and I am convinced that our 'reasoning' will not affect them in any way. Only if they are a 'little' open. People do not let go of there faith. It is the one thing that gives them 'hope' in this life.

 

Thank goodness, he has calmed down now with my help. He was actually getting on my nerves because he started to ague with them right away and try to change their 'silly' beliefs!! Two of our friends wouldn't speak to him for awhile!! Our gang nearly split up over this!!  Crazy making!! 

 

Personally, I think you are doing the right thing. But that's just my opinion......

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I can totally relate! My hubby wants to hang on to the relationships as much as possible, despite being agnostic. I am an atheist. He had a long lunch with our small group leaders and told them the basics of where we are, though he used that annoying "struggling" word as well instead of going all the way. We have not set foot in church since last December but decided to go back to small group this fall. We've had three meetings and it is soooo awkward. The first one was fun and low-key as we were catching up with previous members and getting to know new ones, but the last two were difficult. The difficulty is all inside me, nothing overt. I look at these people that are so nice and welcoming and sincere in their beliefs and I just know that if we were honest with them, we would become projects to most of them. Our leaders are being very respectful of us and not telling anyone else in the group, so that's helpful, but it's just so frustrating. As we shared prayer requests last night, one member asked for prayers for a family member that has cancer and all the suffering he is going through, but then said that the real concern is that he doesn't have a relationship with Jesus. Everyone tsk-tsked, did that tilt-your-head-while-looking-all-sad-and-sorry-thing and then prayed for his salvation. Really!? That's the big concern when this person is in pain and suffering?! Gawd!

 

This is hard, and it's not easy to just write them all off as some on here would say. I suspect those people had much worse experiences with fundamentalists than I ever had. We left the most fundamentalist church we had ever attended a few years ago and the current church is sort of evangelical "light" - very open minded and accepting of all different kinds of people, but still very much an evangelical church. One friend in particular was a missionary for many years and is just the most delightful woman I have ever known. I want to believe she wouldn't be that bothered by it, but I just don't know. She does know about my husband because I shared my concerns about him when I was still a believer, but she has no idea that I have gone even further than he has since. I dread telling her.

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Ouch! I've been down that road myself, and it's hard. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but losing people you only thought were friends is a gain for you, and a huge loss for them! They showed through their actions that their friendship is contingent on groupthink, and that's not what a true friendship should be. I would suggest you grieve those friendships like you would any other loss, because these people meant a lot to you while you were still involved with the church. 

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Thanks guys! 

It's so therapeutic to read your responses.  I appreciate all of your experiences and tips =)

It's good to share with people who are walking / have walked a similar path.

 

SCM - thanks for the advice on not overfocusing on my faith (or lack of).  It's nice to just keep things in the normal arena of sharing about life and stuff.  It's funny how even with different beliefs, most people just want the same things:  health, strong relationships with loved ones, successful children, and a meaningful legacy.  I agree - it's so much easier when the faith difference isn't made to be the THING...

 

Margee - thanks for sharing your experiences.  It's encouraging to know that your example helped your friend see life more clearly.

 

Burned out - you're right - it's good to be able to stand on my own two feet.  I need to do this better.  Especially in my marriage where I'm viewed as deceived / blinded / willfully not-believing by my wife.  It's really hard, but I need to be at peace with and within myself such that her negative view of me does not hurt.  Right now it still hurts!

 

Daffodil -  thanks for relating!  Sounds like we have a lot of similar perspectives.  I definitely get frustrated when people trivialize real pain and suffering to focus on the "real problem" of the person's "salvation".  As though cancer wasn't their biggest problem!!

 

You guys made my day =)

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Milesaway - thank you.  Grief is a good way to think about it...  There's a lot to grieve - lost fatherly/protective figure, lost eternal life, a damaged marriage, all the harm I caused my children by spanking them for their "sin" (messing with their heads), and lost friendships.   This is not an easy path.

 

But at least grief can be worked through and it sounds like there is another side at the end of grief...

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Yep. Currently trying to decide whether to go through that experience with some family members because I know that's how they will view me

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I feel you. I came out a year and a half ago. You know how many of my old "friends" still call... still want to hang out? Um, two. Out of a couple dozen. 

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+1000 to the OP.

 

The problem is indeed with the religion, not those of us they brand as "struggling." The indoctrinated simply don't get it, nor can they comprehend it. It's often not their fault and they really do mean well, but the brainwashing runs deep. My relationships with members of my family would be so much easier if I still believed the myth, but I can't force myself to believe that which I know with certainty is false.

 

Anyway, I hope the lunch went well. Good luck with your relationships.

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I feel you. I came out a year and a half ago. You know how many of my old "friends" still call... still want to hang out? Um, two. Out of a couple dozen. 

 

Same here. And over the years of me reading this board and reports from other posters, I'd say this is the norm.

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I've still got one extreme fundy friend that I may tell this weekend. He's in town for a while and told me about a mutual friend that died this week, so talking to him for a while may be unavoidable. I've been out for just about 8 years, but Jesus hasn't told him yet... We were really good friends for decades, grew up watching the same silly TV shows, and share a similar sense of humor. But he's as gonzo banzai a believer as he ever was, has the most contorted thoughts to make it all seem obvious, and I'm so entirely over it. I can't hardly relate to him outside of humor because it always comes back to Jesus. I'm going in with the idea that Jesus=Thor just to keep my head straight when I talk with him.

 

Had a lot of Russian pentecostal friends also, but they don't initiate contact with me anymore. The common ground of belief was what kept us together for years, and we did become nearly family to them and vice versa. But *poof!* that's all gone now. It hurts, but they see it as necessary to draw us back to the faith, which can't happen.

 

I also have several believing family members within half an hour of me, but I never hear from them at all.

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I'd say you're right, RW. The people who called me their friends while I was still at that church are long gone from my life, and when I saw a few of them around town, they either acted like I wasn't there, or they gave me the most hateful stare they could muster. 

 

Some friends! With friends like that, who needs enemies anyway? Good riddance to them if that's how they're gonna be, and it's their loss. 

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On a purely practical level, Christianity is a sort of tribal club; you're either a member or you are not.

 

The decision as to whether you remain friends with former Christian contacts is unlikely to be a matter in which you will have much choice.  Love them as much as you wish - but I very much doubt if their love for you will go beyond condemning you.

 

Sorry, but that's the way it is, I fear.

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I can totally relate. I have recently came out mentally as an athiest and i intend on letting my friends know, but not my family. I dont intend on telling my family because i couldnt bare to see how devistated my mother would look. However i am trying to slowly give my friends hints towards my beliefs.

 

This may be a little bit mischievous, but, i hope to get into a debate with my fundamental baptist friend so i can absolutely DESTROY his belief. I get antsy every time i get the opportunity to throw tiny tid bits of my beliefs at him. I gues u could say "I WANT TO BRING HIM TO THE LIGHT"

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Hi Insightful.

 

Yeah, that sounds hard and I can completely relate. I met with my pastor last week to tell him that as much as I wanted to believe, I just couldn't anymore. He said he was sad but that integrity is important above all - after all, what kind of faith would it be and who would it benefit if I was just pretending? Which was a good point! I was also honest about my concerns of what I would lose along with that - ie. how will this affect my relationship with him, my husband, our friends in church etc and he sympathised with that too and said he, my husband and all my Christian friends care about me, rather than my quality of faith. (He did say 'is it OK if I continue to pray for you' and I said he could as long as he doesn't tell me :D ) I guess the issue is that often, we are close with people who have the same values and hobbies as us - and that has changed for me now. So I can only connect with them on certain levels. 

 

Perhaps to the friends or people you are closest to, you can be honest with them? Human to human rather than Christian to 'non-believer'? 

Hope it goes OK, rooting for you.

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I can relate, but only to a degree so far. But I'm a fresh deconvert (4 months now) and have only just today told "everyone" on Facebook. So I'll have to see.

 

So far my (former) pastor and colleague in the same missionary organisation actually said "good for you!" when he heard the news. They are not afraid to talk to someone who doesn't share their beliefs anymore.

 

My parents on the contrary have basically told me I'm "spiritually dead", and that I have been fully "swayed by the devil". I can only pity them and their responses. I have told them they are actually believing in the devil more than in God, because I have lost my faith while earnestly seeking God through a long time of five years. But the message just won't get across.

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It seems that many hard core Christians are incapable of having true friendships. Instead they have "brothers and sisters in Christ." For them, one's inability to share their superstition or delusion is a deal breaker. 

 

You can observe similar behavior with other radical groups; rabid Republicans, rabid environmentalists, rabid Yankee fans, etc. The key is that their single overwhelming need in life can be met by only the like minded who validate their beliefs or mania.

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