DivineBlasphemer Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I was sitting on my couch and started to wonder.... Lucifer was an angel cast into hell for trying to overthrow God. Would this in and of itself throw the theory of "there is no fear in heaven" out of the window? Christians say that there would be no fear, worry, or tears in heaven. Well, Lucifer was in heaven at some point and was able to attempt a crime which landed him the "Eternal Punishment". Does this mean that you could still commit a crime once in heaven but, in turn, get thrown into hell? If so, the fear of hell would never cease. In fact, it would worsen because we dont know the limitations on the crime because as far as we know, there are no known consequences for crime, but if they exist we don't know what they are. Moreover, there is no waiting period for consequence in heaven because you have already lived your life and died. If one was to steal a pencil in heaven with no intent of returning it, would that person be therefore cast into hell for theft? Let me know of your oppinions, thanks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miamia Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I was always taught that god originally created angels with free will, then after the falling of Lucifer he took them away.I always assumed before I de-converted that the angels were kind of just automatons, heaven didn't really apply to them the same way. I think It says somewhere that there is no sin in heaven, and that believers would just sit around praising god for all eternity, which always sounded really fucking boring to me. One pastor at a church my family used to attend once commented that if that didn't sound like fun, maybe heaven wasn't the place for you. Most of the people I knew looked at it in a very non physical way. That all the things of this earth would pass away, along with pencils and the possibility of taking them. Things like crime would be impossible, since sin would be forever abolished. So there would be no possibility of going to hell after entering heaven, although if lucifer could be cast out of heaven for free will, how could it be a one way ticket for us, if the unique thing that separates us from the rest of creation is supposedly free will, If we would lose it when we get to heaven whats the point? The afterlife was just one of the many fallacies no one I knew agreed on. Some believed everyone gets to go, some said hell burns sinners for all eternity, some believed that hell = ceasing to exist because they couldn't reconcile the idea of being in heaven and knowing there were others burning in hell so they chose to believe that god would just make the devil and non believers be poof, gone. These are interesting things to think about. The more you read the bible the less sense it makes. Questions like this played a big part in my de-conversion. My mind tends to race a lot so I could never sweep these things under the rug or take it on faith like others I know. I could have covered my ears and stuck my head in the sand all I wanted and the questions would have just kept coming. that voracious need to reason kept my head above water I think. Sorry I"m getting off topic again. I'm sure any christian would tell you to read the bible, or stop thinking about it because there is no way of knowing, since if you scrutinize it too closely, none of it makes sense on any level even if it manages to agree with itself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 The mythology falls apart when you look at it with a critical eye. Satan knew God first hand. Satan knew God was just and all-powerful. So Satan knew failure was the only possible result. Why would Satan start a hopeless fight when he is only bringing about his own doom? The Christian concept of Satan is a comic book villain who does evil for no reason. God is all-knowing but created Satan just the way Satan was. God knew that creating Satan would result in billions of people being born tainted with sin which would result in them burning forever in hell. God sets that all into motion anyway yet somehow God isn't happy with the results? Why didn't God make better choices? There is no sadness in heaven. But many people in heaven will know that they have loved ones and family being tormented forever in hell. If you loved someone you can't be happy when they are being punished so bad and on top of this you know that the crime was they were confused. This would be heartbreakingly sad. So is God going to force our emotions? But then in heaven we are just robots. And those people in hell are burning because God didn't want to make us into robots. And around it goes. Christian theology is based on absolutes and things like that are both illogical and cannot exist. Christianity is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DivineBlasphemer Posted October 12, 2015 Author Share Posted October 12, 2015 I agree. This common problem relies on the "well if he knew the result, why would he do it?" question. Many Christians couldnt answer it correctly. The one answer I see fit is, God was a malevolent being who loved to see his own creation burn because he knew they wouldnt pass his "test" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qadeshet Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I doubt that there are any pencils in Heaven to steal. And based on the Bible descriptions, there is no Free Will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlowerDemon Posted October 12, 2015 Share Posted October 12, 2015 I remember some Christians told me that in Heaven, you don't have knowledge of the people burning in hell. In other words, your memory of those people are gone, so you are not sad in heaven. instead you are joyful and praising God. This concept is fucked to me. All of my friends, family, coworkers, etc who are not Christians will go to hell, and meanwhile I'll be in heaven having no recollection of these people who were a part of my life? God erases my memory of these people who meant something to me, in order to only focus on worshipping and praising him? WTF God is an attention whore in the Bible. He wants all credit given to him for everything that his believers accomplish, he demands all to believe in him or else they will suffer, he demands believers to give up their sinful ways of living to be holy like Jesus (even though God supposedly created these people in his image, they still have to change their ways, for some reason). It appears that he made heaven so he can eternally be glorified and praised, to constantly be showered in worship by the people who submitted to his commands. He also commands believers to "make disciples of all nations", so God can obtain as many worshippers as possible. In a sense, this makes God a glutton. God is also a hypocrite. He commands believers to not lash out in anger, when God is one of the angriest characters I've read in any book. The Bible says to not be sexually immoral, but God highly favored Solomon, who had many wives/concubines (not to mention the other weird sexual things that happened that God didn't seem against). One of the ten commandments is to not murder, and God murdered countless people in the Bible, many of whom did not do anything to deserve death. Christianity just doesn't add up to me. Just because you don't believe in a certain god doesn't make you a bad person, and it doesn't mean you should suffer eternally for it. It's a very extreme belief that many Christians have tried to justify and reason with. I've heard it all. "Well God doesn't want to force you to spend eternity with him." So what...my only other option is to burn in hell forever? "He gives us a choice." Yeah..it's more like pressure, not really a choice. it's like a guy holding a gun to my head telling me to either love him or he will shoot me dead. "God doesnt' wish for anyone to go to hell." Then why did he even create it to begin with? God is far from a perfect deity in the Bible. He flooded the whole earth because he wasn't happy with his sinful creations. He created hell even though he supposedly wants no one to go there, and for all to repent to him. If that was the case then why doesn't he make himself at least a tad bit more evident to humanity. If he really weeps every time a person goes to hell, why doesnt he go out of his way to prevent more people from going there? I could go on forever. The subject of hell was one of the biggest concepts that lead me to my de-conversion. It's illogical to say that every human being on the planet must follow this one specific religion or else they'll suffer forever. Does that really make sense? I think not. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 This would make a great sermon topic. The pastor could add more fear to the fear already meted out every week. Seriously, just put the pencil back where you found it and nobody will get hurt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Wait just a minute here. You mean the "once in heaven, always in heaven" crowd might be wrong? You have to be good for all eternity to remain a member? Hell with it. Count me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel233 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 The whole idea of heavenly salvation is bogus....... Salvation.........being offered by the one being doing all the threatening........ Christianity's god summed up: Love me or I will hurt you....... sick, sick stuff God must want sin in the world, He must also want sinners to go to Hell....otherwise He would not have allowed such concepts to exist.. "God wants all to be saved"....what a fucking joke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DivineBlasphemer Posted October 19, 2015 Author Share Posted October 19, 2015 Once when i was in fith grade and i was still a believer, our mandatory chapel day touched upon this issue, but only on an elementary level. We talked upon, once we get to heaven, there is no worry, doubt, killing, sadness or tears. Well..... there WOULD be tears, but only tears of "joy". As i said, this was only elementary, so they had us eating out of the palm of their hand. No need to go into detail, we were only kids and we would buy into anything. Talk about evil......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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