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Goodbye Jesus

Religion And Ocd: An Agnostics Experience And Pov


rjn

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Hello everyone! This is my first post here, and I'm not sure if this is the right sub-forum; if that is the case, feel free to move the thread to a more appropriate one.

As the title suggests, I'm not really an ex-christian per se, and I hope this is not seen as a problem. In any case, I feel this might be the appropriate place to divulge my experiences regarding religious broodings in the context of psychiatric disorders in general and Obsessive Compulsive Disorder more specifically.

A quick heads up: this post might turn out quite lengthy and "ranty", but I feel I need to share quite a lot. It will probably be about a lot more than just religion, because I honestly believe my upbringing and background is quite relevant to the subject at hand. Hopefully it won't be too incoherent! :)

Where to begin? I'm from Sweden, and as you may know, my country is extremely secularized. Disregarding the muslim minority and our own, tiny Bible Belt of evangelicals - atheism and agnosticism is seen as the norm and status quo. Like most swedish families, mine was never more than nominally christian: we're all baptised and confirmed, but all that was just conforming to a cultural habit and tradition, a tradition that is becoming ever more marginalized at that. Church is something you attend for weddings and funerals. Period.

 

So where does that leave me? Well, let's just say that I've always been the kind of person who asks "the big questions". Always the little philosopher, I'd ponder and brood over spiritual matters, even as a kid. Though we were never raised christian, or taught christian ideas at home, there was still the "residual" Christianity permeating society as a whole and as recent as the early nineties, when I was in elementary, Christianity was still taught as the be-all, end-all religion in school, at least in the petty-bourgeois middle class town I grew up in. All that said, neither my family nor anyone else I knew were professed believers and practitioners. I had a vague idea about "god", Jesus seemed like a fine lad, going to church once every semester for christmas or easter sermon with school was cosy and atmospheric, but nothing more. Even as a little kid, I felt a much stronger affinity for the old, pagan myths: when I was five I truly believed Thor was the cause of thunder ;)
(Man, how I miss that innocent and careless kid...)

Anyhow: when I was around eight, my parents divorced, my mother got herself a new husband and the bubble of innocence started to crack. My stepfather turned out to be a great guy, but despite that, shortly thereafter, my mothers mental health started to decline. Rapidly. She'd always been fragile, but it became more and more apparent as the years went by. When I was eleven, she was admitted to a psychiatric ward. As for me, I'd developed into quite an insecure child (with little self-esteem to begin with), and I started to worry about... well, just about everything. When I was 11-12, I was scared shitless the world was going to end at the turn of the millenium because such things were being spouted across the nascent world wide web at the time.

 

Well, the world didn't end on the first of january 2000. Instead my father, my siblings and I relocated to a certain mid-eastern country that is getting wrecked as we speak because he was offered a job there. Now, being a "Christian" became somewhat important as a cultural marker, in order to differentiate oneself from the muslims at the international school we attended (mostly spoiled upper class arabs who treated insecure western kids like dirt) and to align with other westerners. It's just how it was. Travelling in the Levant did provoke a thought or two regarding religion though, and I didn't hesitate to call myself a "Christian". Still, no fundie ideas, no fire or brimstone. Just a feeling that Christianity was a good, proper faith (in truth, little more than a cultural identity) for good, well-behaved European kids, and that there was a God. Other than that, no big changes as far as religiosity goes.

 

Fast forward a year and back to Sweden. I moved in with my mother and stepfather (a deal struck between my parents: since we were separated from my mother for a long period it was decided that I was to live with them as... compensation) at their pittoresque household in the middle of nowhere on the countryside. New school, no friends, two hours from my siblings (who were in their late teens and could fend for themselves in our fathers house while he stayed behind in the ME to watch dust blow across the Golan) and a mother on a steady mental decline. A few weeks after my 13th birthday I witnessed her attempt suicide for the first time. I vividly recall hugging her in the backseat of our car, soaking wet from ice-cold seawater as my stepfather drove us to the hospital. She stayed at a psychiatric ward for several months after that, and these sort of things became a recurring tradition of sorts the next few years: psychotic episodes, suicide attempts, she spending months on end at the ward or heavily medicated, dazed and apathetic at home. 

Needless to say, I was not turning into a very confident, secure or trusting kid. I did manage to befriend some of the other kids at my new school; the class-clowns, the troubled kids with abusive fathers and junkie mothers. We'd deliberately act like fools and provoke our teachers at every turn possible, and were heavily chastised (only verbally for my part, others were not so lucky) by our parents for it, as if they couldn't possibly realize what was wrong. Somewhere at this point in time (early teens, puberty) I started a routine of active self-loathing: hating myself for every possible personal trait and failure, real or imaginary. I felt like a total disappointment and failure, always letting my parents down. Why couldn't I just behave like all those good, smug kids? Hell, I was better than them, smarter than them. That's what everyone told me, even the teachers who hated me... yet I was just throwing it all away. This only solidified the feelings of failure and guilt even more.

 

My mothers situation didn't improve much during those years and the above mentioned scenarios were common place and periodically it almost became an everyday routine. I expected her to "finish the job" at any given moment, and thus I turned to daydreaming and magical thinking, hoping I could affect reality and prevent it through wishful thinking, as well as exercising more practical preventive measures such as trying to monitor her at all times at home (I'd panic if she went out to dump garbage, check the mailbox etc), checking the locks on the doors and whatnot.
 

Somehow, I managed to pull myself through junior high with pretty good grades. I always had a hard time focusing and staying motivated, but when I DID apply myself, I excelled. Went to a confirmation camp at 15 (alone among my friends to do so) and started to brood a bit about God, reality and all that jazz.

My idea of God, was, and still is, of the more panentheistic kind: something that is beyond our comprehension. Never did I think there was any inherent contradiction between science and religion. God was immeasurable and beyond all that, and the Bible and all other religious stories were just parables, symbolic myths and metaphors. Literalism was always something I shunned. I did "feel" like a Christian for a short while after confirmation, but again, that was probably just a vague spiritual feeling of "connectedness" with the above mentioned idea of "God", which by no means was a specifically Christian thing. On the contrary. Ironically enough, after confirmation, I rapidly moved away from Christianity and started to embrace more pagan ideas as well as some vaguely "dharmic" concepts, but as whole, I never really believed in anything or practiced a belief.

 

So, enter highschool years. My mother had now reached a semblance of stability but was still very unpredictable mood-wise (She still is, even though it's a far cry from 10-15 years ago). I was now living with my father and his new fiancée and we didn't get along at all. Long story short (yeah this is sorta dragging on a bit, sry) I was thoroughly depressed and flunked big time and was expelled at 18 without accomplishing much at all.

 

During the highschool years I didn't pay much heed to any spiritual thoughts really, but enter pot and voilà!

For the first time ever I felt like I could relax and get a semblance of confidence, but in the end, being unemployed and having little else to do but getting stoned and immersed in all kinds of hippie-woo and silly conspiracy theories (to be fair, I did keep somewhat of a mental distance to it all) isn't a recipe for success or mental stability ;)

 

The last ten years since then have been pretty much up and down. A year after being expelled, I attended a "Folkhögskola"; what can best be described as the Scandinavian equivalent to a community college: a place people go to polish up their grades before University or just do something fun and creative for a while (courses in music, art, sports and outdoor activities, whatever rocks your boat really). I didn't really do anything worthwhile though. Me and my friends mainly spent time playing music, getting drunk, stoned and laid for two years straight and accumulating a hefty debt.

 

Psuedo-philosophizing and hippie-woo continued to abound in my mind during this period, and to be honest, I was kinda happy and confident. All that said, being stoned and drunk is not something you write on your résumé, and when reality hit me I was back in my old depressive state, only difference this time around was that I started to "self-medicate" myself with delving ever deeper into spiritual broodings, philosophy and esoteric studies (from allover the spectrum, but mostly pagan and eastern, vedic/dharmic thought, a dash of gnosticism as well) thinking that I could solve my depression and anxiety that way. For short periods I did feel like I achieved moments of calm and clarity, but they usually went away as quickly as they came. Now, aged 21, I started to feel extreme levels of anxiety and experienced panic attacks, so I cut down on alcohol and stopped being a pothead (though it still happens that I smoke weed, on extremely rare occassions) and my carefree hippie-self became disillusioned, cynical and paranoid.

 

The last few years have been a repeating pattern of umemployment, part-time work, and depression. I did finish my grades a few years a go at another - Christian - Folkhögskola, and was feeling great (no I wasn't converted ^^) until I hit rock bottom again. In spite of my distrust for psychiatric care (seeing my mother turned into a vegetable due to meds and EST probably had something to do with it), I did agree to do a psychiatric evaluation and was diagnosed with ADHD three years ago and started therapy, which I'm very happy about. I managed to begin a bachelor degree in linguistics, but as always, my anxiety and motivational problems got the best of me and I dropped out and the last two years it feels like I've been declining further and further. It doesn't get easier with the years... the feeling that one is missing out on ones life and being a complete failure adds to the already high levels of stress, anxiety and regret.

 

This last year has been absolutely hellish. For years I've struggled with OCD-symptoms that have been relatively mild but still a damn nuisance: is the stove on? Did I blow out that candle? Is the door locked? Did I do something wrong? Say something wrong? I better backtrack in my mind a hundred times and brood over it some more or check that stove 15 more times. Classic OCD stuff. What is much worse are the morbid, intrusive thoughts that bombard my mind and that have become more frequent as of late...

 

As I've already said, I'm very much a "worrier". I worry about stuff all the time, and have always done so, and I mean EVERYTHING. From social situations, world war, disease, stoves and car keys, environmental problems, the health and well-being of my loved ones. Everything, no thing is too small or too big it seems. They all fit squarely into my worried brain, which, at times, seems to be at war with itself. The worst fears however, are the ones related to worries along the line of "What if I accidently hurt someone? What if I lose my mind and become crazy and consciously do something bad to someone? Especially, someone I care about?". Apparently, this is also quite common in OCD, and probably related to my ingrained self-hatred.

 

Spiritual ideas are, of course, not an exception, and have been preoccupying my mind a great deal as of late, which I guess leads to the main reason that I'm here at this forum to begin with, namely: scrupulosity. This is all very wierd since, as I've made clear above, I'm not really a believer, least of all a christian believer. On the contrary, I've been very much an ardent critic of the abrahamic faiths, and often expressed a large degree of disdain towards them. I've always respected religious people who are non-dogmatic, humble and truly spiritual and harmonious, but the literalists, fundies and fire-and-brimstone crowd I've always rejected.

 

Yes, I've spent more time than could possibly be healthy pondering and immersing myself in religious ideas, sometimes to the verge of insanity, and yet, despite my interest in spiritual matters, I've never been a devout, certain believer, least of all in the biblical god, but despite all that, such thoughts permeate my OCD nowadays.

 

An example of this is from a few months back: I was having a wank. Yup, nothing more than an ol' good skin flute session. One among thousands. Nothing special about it, if it wasn't for the fact that I had an intrusive thought along the lines of, "I shouldn't do this!", "What if this is what CONDEMNS ME!?". Anyhow, I brushed it aside as the irrational stupid idea it was and went on with my business, but the OCD came back and I felt terrible. "So, I've chosen condemnation just to have one lousy unsatisfying wank?".
Mind you, it wasn't even a specifically Christian condemnation, just the thought of "being condemned" in general, though in retrospect I pondered things like "What if I did the unforgivable and sinned against the Holy Ghost. Is that what I did?".

 

Yeah, it all sounds very silly, but that's how it was. It did fade away though, and I thought little of it for the next few weeks, though I was somewhat wary, because this was the first severe panic attack I'd had in a very long time. I guess it might be worth pointing out that my situation lately has been a lot rougher than usual and that I've dealt with large amounts of stress for the past six months or so. In any case, this autumn I've had several more severe anxiety attacks that have arisen out of the blue during everyday situations. One was especially harsh and I was outright fearing for my grip on reality and it felt as though I was bordering on psychosis. During a few of these attacks, my sadistic brain just had to invent the notion of becoming possessed. Yeah, you get the idea. I guess some believers would see this as some sort of "proof" of a higher power trying to communicate with me, but to my experience, the mechanisms are the same regardless of what I'm worrying about. Did I lock the door or am I losing my mind/becoming possessed? It's all just a matter of degree.

 

I am very well aware that these feelings and thoughts are anything but rational, and I recognize them for what they are, but the anxiety sure is real, and during the roughest ones when my grip on reality has seemed very frail, I've entertained thoughts about "surrendering myself to god" and so on, even though I don't believe in god, least of all the biblical one. Does the notion of becoming a believer scare me? Yes and no. Not as such, but as a way to cure anxiety? If there even was something such as a god, I sincerely doubt one could create a stable, beneficial spiritual relationship with it based on fear and anxiety. It would probably just make things worse and reinforce the detachment from reality and turn one into a psychotic moron.

In fact, I think a lot of religious behaviour can be explained as form of OCD. What more is, I've become more and more sure lately that there in fact, is no God. I'm still willing to give some leeway to the idea of an impersonal and transcendent, panentheistic "god" though and I'm not denying spirituality as such either. In fact, I believe it is a fundamental human need to connect to things on a "deeper" level, but this doesn't really require a God, least of all a jewish bronze age one. In other words, it feels as though I'm transforming myself; from confused agnostic into a full-blown atheist, albeit one with certain spiritual ideas.

I recently came to the realization that all this religious brooding really isn't leading me anywhere, and that simple realization made most of these worries fade away. It is still there though, as some kind of background noise, and the mere fact that some believers seem so adamantly certain makes me doubt. With OCD, there's always that "What if?". One may very well be aware of how stupid and irrational it all is, but it is the uncertainty that really makes it a pain in the ass. All the shit that is going on in the world right now also makes me very worried, mostly on a mundane level, but it all seems very eschatological to say the least. Rapture imminent? ^^

 

Phew, I guess that is all for now. I'm sorry if this turned into one big incoherent mess, but there it is. If nothing else, it was kinda therapeutic writing it all down. Please share any thoughts you may have :)
 

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I found the realization that there is no god looking out for me or looking to condemn me to be liberating.  It felt like I was finally growing up.  Your mileage may vary.  Good luck on your journey!

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Welcome to ex-c and thanks for sharing your story.

 

All the best :)

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I found the realization that there is no god looking out for me or looking to condemn me to be liberating.  It felt like I was finally growing up.  Your mileage may vary.  Good luck on your journey!

 

So did I, and I haven't really wrestled with this in the way most of you around here have. Many of you have been brought up in a very religious environment, or been converted to denominations with cult-like aspects. I can't really compete with that. Your de-conversions must have been way more traumatic and painful. I don't even have to deal with the whole social pressure. Hell, I'm not even de-converting from anything! That said, admitting to myself that there probably is no divine reality (again: generally speaking and not necessarily a Christian one) was indeed very liberating. I guess I have to thank everyone here for that, because that thought didn't really occur until I stumbled upon this place. So, thanks everyone!

 

I still wrestle with a lot of doubts though, and I guess agnostic, rather than atheist, is still the best description if I have to make a choice between labels.

 

 

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Religious ideas don't connect with human experience.  They are pure ideas,--vagabond thoughts that tramp the public roads without any human habitation.  Any idea that will not enrich human experience can be considered a form of irrelevant, dissipating, and obsessive thought.  Unless ideas give you hope, motivation and purpose, they tend toward being pathological.

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Religious ideas don't connect with human experience.  They are pure ideas,--vagabond thoughts that tramp the public roads without any human habitation.  Any idea that will not enrich human experience can be considered a form of irrelevant, dissipating, and obsessive thought.  Unless ideas give you hope, motivation and purpose, they tend toward being pathological.

 

Not entirely sure about that, but your general assessment seems about right.

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rjn:  You sound like a pretty intelligent person.  And I know it's hard to think rationally about things when confronted with the symptoms of OCD.

 

So, you can throw my advice in the trash can if you think that's where it belongs.

 

But rather than thinking about religious things, which (guaranteed) will only magnify and compound the "what if's", why not put some energy into trying to learn about the real cause of your symptoms i.e.  the working of the brain.  The breakdown in communication between the left and right hemispheres of your brain.  It just seems to me if you began to understand things in their true physiological perspective, it would do you much more good than dwelling on superstitions.

 

p.s.  If "having a wank" condemned a person to hell, there would be a very hollow echo in the halls of heaven.  And hell would be like downtown Bangkok.FrogsToadBigGrin.gif

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Perhaps I have (mild) OCD myself.  One thing I do is to say out loud;  "The door is locked".  Or, "the stove is turned off".  Somehow if you hear yourself say it, you get it - and don't have to think about it again.

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The writers who wrote about the rapture also wrote that all of the stars would fall from the sky.  Those little sparkly things imbedded in the firmament would end up falling to earth.  

 

Think about it. 

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rjn:  You sound like a pretty intelligent person.  And I know it's hard to think rationally about things when confronted with the symptoms of OCD.

 

So, you can throw my advice in the trash can if you think that's where it belongs.

 

But rather than thinking about religious things, which (guaranteed) will only magnify and compound the "what if's", why not put some energy into trying to learn about the real cause of your symptoms i.e.  the working of the brain.  The breakdown in communication between the left and right hemispheres of your brain.  It just seems to me if you began to understand things in their true physiological perspective, it would do you much more good than dwelling on superstitions.

 

p.s.  If "having a wank" condemned a person to hell, there would be a very hollow echo in the halls of heaven.  And hell would be like downtown Bangkok.FrogsToadBigGrin.gif

 

I'm quite aware of the workings of the brain, and the probable evolutionary origins of a lot of religious behaviour. Delving even deeper into that could indeed prove to be beneficial for my peace of mind, and if nothing else, would be very interesting.

 

As for the wank-part: the point is that that particular moment was conditioned with anxiety, which made it feel significant, not masturbation as such. Reading testimonies by former fundamentalists having had similar anxiety attacks after sex sorta put it all in perspective though.

 

And if there is a Biblical Hell that is anything like the grotesque fantasies of the fundies, then yes, it is probably very much like downtown Bangkok ;)

 

The writers who wrote about the rapture also wrote that all of the stars would fall from the sky.  Those little sparkly things imbedded in the firmament would end up falling to earth.  

 

Think about it. 

 

I feel I've made it very clear that I've never believed in any crazy fundamentalist ideas or literalist interpretations. What scares me is the sheer conviction of some religious people, and of course, it is scary that some people actually believe that kind of shit, but when I'm in a mental state were my grip on reality feels kinda weak, even such ideas - no matter how stupid and irrational - can get a foothold. I can easily dismiss it as the irrational idiocy it is, but it can still be there as an annoying blur at the back of my mind. 

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I know you're no fundy-nutter.  Just trying to come up with something that might help you.  If nothing else, increased exposure to the group of people here who make fun of superstitions may compete with things that get a foothold in your brain.  


 


In any case, we're on your side and rooting for you, rjn. 


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I know you're no fundy-nutter.  Just trying to come up with something that might help you.  If nothing else, increased exposure to the group of people here who make fun of superstitions may compete with things that get a foothold in your brain.  

 

In any case, we're on your side and rooting for you, rjn. 

 

 

Yeah, I guess that's the very reason I'm here after all, despite not being a true ex-christian.

 

Oh, and I hope I do not come off as a bit snappy. In any case, that is not my intention.

 

And I appreciate the feedback and support, I really do, so thank you guys  :)

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This was really interesting to read. It's not often that you encounter people who have those kinds of convictions, despite never being imbedded with thoughts that things are or can be evil. I sympathize with you there. Although, my convictions were from staunch religious teachings. "Sex is bad" "Masturbation is bad" "Any physical touch is bad between two unmarried people" etc etc. Back when I was still a crazy hard-core Christian, an Ex and I had some sexual experiences together that we later had to "repent" of with each other. We felt like such horrible believers. ugh...looking back on it now though, I can't help but laugh at the fact that two consenting adults experiencing their sexuality gave me so much grief and pain. It's so silly.

 

Honestly, I have some anxiety issues of my own. But when I came to the conclusion that I cannot know the unknown, and that no one is up there with a lightening bolt ready to knock me out, It really gave me a sense of freedom I have never had before. Like you, I still think that a god or gods may exist, but I don't think it is required of us to find out. That realization really helped take the pressure off. I'm not saying I don't ever get freaked out about it all, but those feelings are not rational. If I think about that, I feel better.

 

I hope you can find the things that make you feel at peace with it all. I'm sure that lurking around here will help a lot :D

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This was really interesting to read. It's not often that you encounter people who have those kinds of convictions, despite never being imbedded with thoughts that things are or can be evil. I sympathize with you there. Although, my convictions were from staunch religious teachings. "Sex is bad" "Masturbation is bad" "Any physical touch is bad between two unmarried people" etc etc. Back when I was still a crazy hard-core Christian, an Ex and I had some sexual experiences together that we later had to "repent" of with each other. We felt like such horrible believers. ugh...looking back on it now though, I can't help but laugh at the fact that two consenting adults experiencing their sexuality gave me so much grief and pain. It's so silly.

 

Honestly, I have some anxiety issues of my own. But when I came to the conclusion that I cannot know the unknown, and that no one is up there with a lightening bolt ready to knock me out, It really gave me a sense of freedom I have never had before. Like you, I still think that a god or gods may exist, but I don't think it is required of us to find out. That realization really helped take the pressure off. I'm not saying I don't ever get freaked out about it all, but those feelings are not rational. If I think about that, I feel better.

 

I hope you can find the things that make you feel at peace with it all. I'm sure that lurking around here will help a lot biggrin.png

 

Thanks for the feedback! It's always good to know one is not alone smile.png

 

Now I'm done for though! Yesterday, there was yet another news report about some crazy jihadists doing some horrible shit, which left me with a tired, fed-up feeling towards all religious death-cults, so I simply felt, "Curse the abrahamic God. Fuck 'em!" (both the Christian Trinity and the Islamic version), Yet again, I have this feeling of having irrevocably condemned myself. It's far from as severe as before, but it's still there. Damn it, I know all this is stupid and irrational, why do I even care?

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