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Goodbye Jesus

Christian Apologetics Professor Becomes Atheist


ficino

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Not sure whether the Den is the best place for this ...

 

I just discovered that a Dr. Steven Davis, Christian apologetics professor, has come out as atheist after decades of teaching Christians to argue for their faith:

 

http://www.almostheresy.com/2015/11/leaving-the-faith-an-interview-with-dr-steven-davis-part-1/

 

 

 

Here is progressive Christian blogger Kyle Roberts' initial reaction to Davis' deconversion:

 

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unsystematictheology/2015/11/losing-god-from-christian-apologetics-professor-to-skeptical-atheist/

 

Interesting that Roberts raises the question, whether Davis fell into subjective thinking. But as a Kierkegaard scholar, Roberts seems ill-suited to push the case that Christianity is based on anything objective.

 

There are some good exchanges in the comments between Roberts and a Ph.D. candidate in astronomy.

 

BAA CHECK OUT THE COMMENTS from the astronomer!

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This is excellent on two fronts, Ficino!  smile.png

 

Firstly, it's excellent for Davis on a personal level.

By his strength of commitment to seeking the truth he challenged his long and deeply-held belief that Christianity was the truth.  If it were the truth, then it would have passed every possible test he could have subjected it to.  And I see only three possible outcomes here.  One, Christianity is true, but thru human error Davis failed to challenge it correctly.  Two, Christianity is true, but we cannot know that by reason and only by faith, so Davis applied the wrong methodology and inevitably this lead him to the wrong conclusion.  Three, Christianity is not true and when Davis put it to the test, it failed and he therefore did the right and honest thing and discarded it as untrue. 

 

Secondly, it's excellent for anyone who comes to this forum seeking the truth.

They can read about Davis' total commitment to the truth and where it lead him.  They can see for themselves that such an unrelenting, uncompromising commitment yields the rich reward of freedom from superstition, ignorance and fear.  I therefore strongly recommend that the Mods pin this thread for the future benefit of the many people who can learn and be inspired by Davis' example.  goodjob.gif

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Thanks for drawing my attention to Garcia's comments, Ficino.  smile.png

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Lastly, Davis' mantra (The truth has nothing to fear) is uber-relevant in this forum.

Especially in the Lion's Den.  And specifically relevant to the Christian calling himself Ironhorse.  The following could have been written by Davis, with you in mind, Ironhorse.

 

Your assumptions about religious reality likely remain unexamined, since they were a part of you before you ever knew yourself to be you. If you’re not willing to admit that you hold unexamined assumptions in the religious arena of your life, then you might as well give up in regard to critical thinking about personal religious matters.

 

Ironhorse, you claim to have skeptically and critically appraised you Christian faith "for years", but despite repeated requests for you to make good on that claim - you've failed to do so.

 

Please show us that you have walked the same road as Davis and skeptically and critically examined your beliefs.

 

We believe that you HAVE NOT done this.

 

Which is more important to you, the truth or saving face?

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"Good news" indeed. I look forward to future debates between Davis and apologists in the future. 

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The guy bobmead in the comments is quite the gem.  I got proof that God is real!  You say you want to hear it?  Obviously asking to hear about it shows that you have a closed mind so why should I cast pearls before swine!!!1!!!  (insert ten random insults)  But download my book it has proof that God is real.

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Probably mystique under his other name

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The guy bobmead in the comments is quite the gem.  I got proof that God is real!  You say you want to hear it?  Obviously asking to hear about it shows that you have a closed mind so why should I cast pearls before swine!!!1!!!  (insert ten random insults)  But download my book it has proof that God is real.

And apparently the book was "written for men!" So, I guess I should just bow out now with my tail between my legs because clearly I don't have the brainpower to handle this stuff.

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Seriously, wow! Just wow! I read some of this to my husband because he is a Stephen Covey fan and he asked me to email the link to him so he can go through it in depth. This does need to be pinned. I'm going to be watching for the next installments.

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Great read, thanks for posting it.

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No pin!  About a year ago the first page of every subforum was a list of pinned threads which stood in the way of a lively community exchange of currently relevant discussion.  The forum came back to life only after the moderators moved all of the pinned threads away.  Seriously,  pinning interesting threads can only have the effect of turning the forum into a boring place.  That said -- I love this thread.  Thanks for sharing the story of the apologist who deconverted.  Tomorrow there will be more threads equally as enriching as this one, though.

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Great post Ficino, thanks. 

 

How about a compromise and pin this temporarily. Say a couple weeks or so. It would give all of our current regulars time to discover it, and by then anyone that wanted to continue to follow the link and any updates to it would know right where to find it, and the thread could then sink or swim on it's own like the others do.

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Insofar as it is meaningful, people will continue to add posts until it isn't, and it will stay up just as long as it deserves to, and will die when it is no longer useful.  That's why threads that receive commentary are refreshed to the top of the list, and when the thread dies, it gets a proper burial.  Cthulhu knows most of my threads are dead, gone, locked, never to be resuscitated or reiterated.

 

Relevant_to_interests_hedgehog.jpg

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Llwelynn,

 

I cannot agree with you.

Davis' measured and rational rejection of Christianity is a significant event that doesn't deserve to die and be buried.  Instead it deserves to be held aloft as a shining example of the triumph of one man's honesty and integrity and of the wider power of reason over superstition, ignorance and self-delusion.  It should be celebrated and be an inspirational example to the members of this forum.  Not just to those who are Ex-Christians, who have walked the same road as Davis, but also to those who are summoning up the courage to do so.  Pinning this thread will be of help to those who are currently lurking, to the newbies and to the long-standing members alike.

 

Please don't forget that the intended purpose of this forum is to help and encourage those considering leaving religion (especially Christianity) behind.

You may have had the strength of character and skills to do this on your own - but many others are weaker than yourself and do not possess these attributes.  So they'll need all the help we (the strong) can give them.  Which is why I contend that this thread should be pinned.  Letting it die and be buried ill serves those who most need it.

 

Please reconsider.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

 

 

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a shining example of the triumph of one man's honesty and integrity and of the wider power of reason over superstition, ignorance and self-delusion.  

 

I'm not a moderator, so I don't make the decisions one way or the other.  I'd like to think that every new thread could and would, in it's own way, as you say:  "represent a triumph of reason."  And having the first page of every subforum consist of pinned threads inhibits that.  About a year and a half ago I wrote to the moderators with this message, which resulted in changes.  For every thread that gets newly-pinned, a decision should be made to un-pin another thread (or move it to the "pinned thread" page), so that we don't run into the same problems where the interests of yesterday stand in the way of the discoveries of today.  Pin this thread if that's right, but please unpin the one that was important before.  Every truth deserves to be eventually buried to make way for the new.  This is what I wrote:

 

"In my opinion, there are too many "pinned" threads on some of the subforums. For example, on the "ex-Christian Life" subforum, there are over a dozen pinned threads. As displayed on my computer, there are only five or so threads that are "current content" unpinned threads. This creates the feeling of a kind of static, and ossified conversation, where active engagement with fresh threads is reduced. New threads too quickly pass into the second page, and then are un-viewed and un-answered. I recommend that you establish a limit on the number of pinned threads permitted on each subforum -- perhaps 5. The top five can be picked."

 

And that's all I'll say about pinned threads -- I'm not in charge here, and for good reasons, so I'll let the leaders exercise leadership on this issue.

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I encourage all members and guests here to read the article. As a Christian, I saw a some red flags that I hope to comment on later but I thought I would start with one red flag at the end:

 

 

“Request/Disclaimer: I welcome your sincere questions, relevant comments, constructive criticisms, and enlightening insights. Wisenheimers, nitpickers, pedants, and jackasses will be ignored by default.”

 

 

Ignored?

 

Would my comment as a Christian not be welcomed?

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If you fit those criteria then i think he is saying he will ignore you. Don't be one of those when you email him.

 

He takes critical thinking very seriously it seems. I don't think any of your arguments I've read here on ex-c to likely dent his decision. Please promise to post any correspondence here for our enlightenment? Maybe he can help you with your questions

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.

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If you fit those criteria then i think he is saying he will ignore you. Don't be one of those when you email him.

 

He takes critical thinking very seriously it seems. I don't think any of your arguments I've read here on ex-c to likely dent his decision. Please promise to post any correspondence here for our enlightenment? Maybe he can help you with your questions

 

 

I checked out his Facebook page. It is post after post of him trashing and mocking the Christian faith.

 

That does not offend me. If that is his belief and mission in life, so be it. He can have at it.

I'm all for freedom of speech and expression.

 

But don't feed me a long essay about your search for truth, claiming you have found it and

then telling me you don't want to hear from those who hold other viewpoints. 

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 .

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If you fit those criteria then i think he is saying he will ignore you. Don't be one of those when you email him.

 

He takes critical thinking very seriously it seems. I don't think any of your arguments I've read here on ex-c to likely dent his decision. Please promise to post any correspondence here for our enlightenment? Maybe he can help you with your questions

 

I checked out his Facebook page. It is post after post of him trashing and mocking the Christian faith.

 

That does not offend me. If that is his belief and mission in life, so be it. He can have at it.

I'm all for freedom of speech and expression.

 

But don't feed me a long essay about your search for truth, claiming you have found it and

then telling me you don't want to hear from those who hold other viewpoints.

Um IH, he WAS the opposing viewpoint for 14 years. Why do I have to point out the obvious here?
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I encourage all members and guests here to read the article. As a Christian, I saw a some red flags that I hope to comment on later but I thought I would start with one red flag at the end:

 

 

“Request/Disclaimer: I welcome your sincere questions, relevant comments, constructive criticisms, and enlightening insights. Wisenheimers, nitpickers, pedants, and jackasses will be ignored by default.”

 

 

Ignored?

 

Would my comment as a Christian not be welcomed?

 

 

That would depend on whether you are a wisenhimer, nitpicker, pendant, or jackass.  Yeah, that's a real red flag.

 

 

 

If you fit those criteria then i think he is saying he will ignore you. Don't be one of those when you email him.

 

He takes critical thinking very seriously it seems. I don't think any of your arguments I've read here on ex-c to likely dent his decision. Please promise to post any correspondence here for our enlightenment? Maybe he can help you with your questions

 

 

I checked out his Facebook page. It is post after post of him trashing and mocking the Christian faith.

 

That does not offend me. If that is his belief and mission in life, so be it. He can have at it.

I'm all for freedom of speech and expression.

 

But don't feed me a long essay about your search for truth, claiming you have found it and

then telling me you don't want to hear from those who hold other viewpoints. 

 

 

He's well versed in your viewpoints, as many folks on this forum are.  Like you, I would expect him to give short shrift to your incessant religious dogma, mere assertions, irrationality and apologetics.

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I encourage all members and guests here to read the article. As a Christian, I saw a some red flags that I hope to comment on later but I thought I would start with one red flag at the end:

 

 

“Request/Disclaimer: I welcome your sincere questions, relevant comments, constructive criticisms, and enlightening insights. Wisenheimers, nitpickers, pedants, and jackasses will be ignored by default.”

 

 

Ignored?

 

Would my comment as a Christian not be welcomed?

 

 

That would depend on whether you are a wisenhimer, nitpicker, pendant, or jackass.  Yeah, that's a real red flag.

 

 

 

If you fit those criteria then i think he is saying he will ignore you. Don't be one of those when you email him.

 

He takes critical thinking very seriously it seems. I don't think any of your arguments I've read here on ex-c to likely dent his decision. Please promise to post any correspondence here for our enlightenment? Maybe he can help you with your questions

 

 

I checked out his Facebook page. It is post after post of him trashing and mocking the Christian faith.

 

That does not offend me. If that is his belief and mission in life, so be it. He can have at it.

I'm all for freedom of speech and expression.

 

But don't feed me a long essay about your search for truth, claiming you have found it and

then telling me you don't want to hear from those who hold other viewpoints. 

 

 

He's well versed in your viewpoints, as many folks on this forum are.  Like you, I would expect him to give short shrift to your incessant religious dogma, mere assertions, irrationality and apologetics.

 

 

 

"Guiding Principle #1: The Truth Has Nothing to Fear!"

 

And so now he decides to shut away any opposing views?

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I encourage all members and guests here to read the article. As a Christian, I saw a some red flags that I hope to comment on later but I thought I would start with one red flag at the end:

 

 

“Request/Disclaimer: I welcome your sincere questions, relevant comments, constructive criticisms, and enlightening insights. Wisenheimers, nitpickers, pedants, and jackasses will be ignored by default.”

 

 

Ignored?

 

Would my comment as a Christian not be welcomed?

 

 

That would depend on whether you are a wisenhimer, nitpicker, pendant, or jackass.  Yeah, that's a real red flag.

 

 

 

If you fit those criteria then i think he is saying he will ignore you. Don't be one of those when you email him.

 

He takes critical thinking very seriously it seems. I don't think any of your arguments I've read here on ex-c to likely dent his decision. Please promise to post any correspondence here for our enlightenment? Maybe he can help you with your questions

 

 

I checked out his Facebook page. It is post after post of him trashing and mocking the Christian faith.

 

That does not offend me. If that is his belief and mission in life, so be it. He can have at it.

I'm all for freedom of speech and expression.

 

But don't feed me a long essay about your search for truth, claiming you have found it and

then telling me you don't want to hear from those who hold other viewpoints. 

 

 

He's well versed in your viewpoints, as many folks on this forum are.  Like you, I would expect him to give short shrift to your incessant religious dogma, mere assertions, irrationality and apologetics.

 

 

 

"Guiding Principle #1: The Truth Has Nothing to Fear!"

 

And so now he decides to shut away any opposing views?

 

 

 

There's a difference between fear and wasting time.  Yes, the truth has nothing to fear, but the truth doesn't waste time with nonsense.

 

On another point, he didn't say, infer of suggest he would shut away "any opposing views".  He will no doubt shut away views he has already studied and rejected, like your views.  You exaggerate when you say "any views".  Try to be more honest.  Please try.

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I encourage all members and guests here to read the article. As a Christian, I saw a some red flags that I hope to comment on later but I thought I would start with one red flag at the end:

 

 

“Request/Disclaimer: I welcome your sincere questions, relevant comments, constructive criticisms, and enlightening insights. Wisenheimers, nitpickers, pedants, and jackasses will be ignored by default.”

 

 

Ignored?

 

Would my comment as a Christian not be welcomed?

 

 

That would depend on whether you are a wisenhimer, nitpicker, pendant, or jackass.  Yeah, that's a real red flag.

 

 

 

If you fit those criteria then i think he is saying he will ignore you. Don't be one of those when you email him.

 

He takes critical thinking very seriously it seems. I don't think any of your arguments I've read here on ex-c to likely dent his decision. Please promise to post any correspondence here for our enlightenment? Maybe he can help you with your questions

 

 

I checked out his Facebook page. It is post after post of him trashing and mocking the Christian faith.

 

That does not offend me. If that is his belief and mission in life, so be it. He can have at it.

I'm all for freedom of speech and expression.

 

But don't feed me a long essay about your search for truth, claiming you have found it and

then telling me you don't want to hear from those who hold other viewpoints. 

 

 

He's well versed in your viewpoints, as many folks on this forum are.  Like you, I would expect him to give short shrift to your incessant religious dogma, mere assertions, irrationality and apologetics.

 

 

 

"Guiding Principle #1: The Truth Has Nothing to Fear!"

 

And so now he decides to shut away any opposing views?

 

Are you going to refute any of his arguments, or construct an argument for Christianity's truth? Or are you just going to try to attack the guy's character?

 

Why not go over there and post something and see if he takes your tone as the tone of a wisenheimer, nitpicker, pedant or jackass. Sounds like an intriguing challenge for a skeptical, critical thinker like you, Ironhorse.

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Ironhorse, this guy was a pastor and/or a professor of your stuff for almost 30 years of his life. Do you think you have something he hasn't already considered? Then by all means, write to him.

 

Why are you asking us?

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