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Goodbye Jesus

Christian Apologetics Professor Becomes Atheist


ficino

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Wake up and wise up, people!   mad.gif

Ficino didn't start this thread as an invitation aimed squarely at Ironhorse, for him to leave and go and take on Davis.

And I didn't follow up Ficino's OP by asking or demanding that Ironhorse go take on Davis.  Nor was there anything posted by Blood, MyMistake, Jeff, Daffodil, Geezer, Llwelynn, Duderonomy or sdelsolray about Ironhorse taking on Davis on his home turf.

 

So when Ironhorse wrote about the red flags he saw in Davis' comments... that was a deflection on his part.

He cleverly zeroed in on something he could blow up into an attention-grabbing issue (Davis' Request/Disclaimer) to take your focus off his own failure to be as skeptical and critical of his faith as Davis has been.   

 

THAT is the real issue in this thread, guys!

 

Not what Davis might or might not do elsewhere, but what Ironhorse is trying to avoid doing, right here and right now, in THIS forum. 

He recently claimed to have spent 'years' skeptically and critically appraising his own faith.   But yesterday (with s-p-e-c-t-a-c-u-l-a-r-l-y bad timing for Ironhorse) Ficino posted the example of Davis, who's done exactly what Ironhorse claims he's been doing for 'years'. 

 

So, can you now see how you've been had, my friends?  

How Ironhorse has craftily deflected your attention away from the real issue of this thread? 

But using Davis as our benchmark we can examine Ironhorse's recent claim to have skeptically and critically analysed his faith.

 

LET'S SEE IT PLEASE, IRONHORSE.

 

YOU CLAIM TO HAVE DONE EXACTLY WHAT DAVIS HAS DONE.

 

WE WOULD LIKE TO COMPARE YOUR SKEPTICAL AND CRITICAL APPRAISAL OF YOUR FAITH WITH DAVIS'

 

PLEASE POST IT IN THIS THREAD.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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BAA,

 

I for one, and I suspect most of the posters you mentioned (including yourself), do not beleive Ironhorse's claim that he was skeptical and used critical thinking to evaluate his religion.  His attempt to derail this thread notwithstanding, I have never seen Ironhorse use skepticism or critical thinking in any of his posts over the past two years.  I don't think he is equipped to do so.

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If a person is searching they will have an open and receptive mind. If they are not in a searching mode they will likely have a closed mind. It seems to me that is a universal truth.

 

Attempting to enlighten a closed mind is usually a waste of time, because there is no interest. If that is the situation, then the quality & quantity of the evidence becomes pretty much irrelevant.

 

Therefore, the first step in the process is to determine if you have a legitimate prospect or not. If you do not have a prospect there is no point in pursuing the matter.

 

Iron Horse is an example of someone who is not a prospect when it comes to discussing religion. I recognize I am not a prospect for someone who wants to convince me that Christianity is true.

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BAA,

 

I for one, and I suspect most of the posters you mentioned (including yourself), do not beleive Ironhorse's claim that he was skeptical and used critical thinking to evaluate his religion.  His attempt to derail this thread notwithstanding, I have never seen Ironhorse use skepticism or critical thinking in any of his posts over the past two years.  I don't think he is equipped to do so.

 

sdelsolray,

 

I agree.  I don't think Ironhorse is equipped to perform even the most basic kind of critical thinking.

 

However, there are now TWO elephants making their presence felt in the Den.  

 

The first was Ironhorse's recent claim that he had skeptically and critically analyzed and appraised his Christian faith for years.  

 

But this second elephant is an altogether different kind of animal!

 

It isn't an unsubstantiated claim that Ironhorse can just leave hanging and unanswered until it's forgotten.  

 

No.  Elephant # 2 is Ironhorse's reaction to Davis.  KatieHmm.gif

 

If he's done the same as Davis, yet retained his Christian faith, he should be pleased to be compared to him, so that he can show us where Davis went wrong.

 

But that's not what we see from Ironhorse.  PageofCupsNono.gif

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If a person is searching they will have an open and receptive mind. If they are not in a searching mode they will likely have a closed mind. It seems to me that is a universal truth.

 

Attempting to enlighten a closed mind is usually a waste of time, because there is no interest. If that is the situation, then the quality & quantity of the evidence becomes pretty much irrelevant.

 

Therefore, the first step in the process is to determine if you have a legitimate prospect or not. If you do not have a prospect there is no point in pursuing the matter.

 

Iron Horse is an example of someone who is not a prospect when it comes to discussing religion. I recognize I am not a prospect for someone who wants to convince me that Christianity is true.

 

I agree Geezer.

 

However, for the sake of the lurkers and the newbies it's helpful to show them a worked example of a Christian mind that is closed to the enlightenment that skepticism and critical thinking can bring.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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BAA,

 

I for one, and I suspect most of the posters you mentioned (including yourself), do not beleive Ironhorse's claim that he was skeptical and used critical thinking to evaluate his religion.  His attempt to derail this thread notwithstanding, I have never seen Ironhorse use skepticism or critical thinking in any of his posts over the past two years.  I don't think he is equipped to do so.

 

sdelsolray,

 

I agree.  I don't think Ironhorse is equipped to perform even the most basic kind of critical thinking.

 

However, there are now TWO elephants making their presence felt in the Den.  

 

The first was Ironhorse's recent claim that he had skeptically and critically analyzed and appraised his Christian faith for years.  

 

But this second elephant is an altogether different kind of animal!

 

It isn't an unsubstantiated claim that Ironhorse can just leave hanging and unanswered until it's forgotten.  

 

No.  Elephant # 2 is Ironhorse's reaction to Davis.  KatieHmm.gif

 

If he's done the same as Davis, yet retained his Christian faith, he should be pleased to be compared to him, so that he can show us where Davis went wrong.

 

But that's not what we see from Ironhorse.  PageofCupsNono.gif

 

 

Yes, if IH truly examined his religion, this thread would be a perfect opportunity for him to lay that out for all to see.

 

One other point that should be mentioned - when IH first stated when he first came here (circa early 2014) that he critically examined his religion, he indicated that his examination was pervasive and included non-religious world views, e.g., he examined the sciences, philosophy, etc., as well as other religions  Then, more recently (just a few weeks ago), his claim of critical examination narrowed to only an examination of other Christian "denominations" followed by a widening of the claim to an examination of other religions.  Gone was the claim of a critical examination of non-religious information.  It is not clear at this point what he is claiming he examined.

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Very well.  I apologize for the disruption.

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This is NOT the Ironhorse thread! It is about a guy who has broken out of the chains of being an apologist for a cult.

 

I want his testimony to be known to anyone who is interested.

 

I look forward to further installments from Dr. Davis.

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This has to panic so many Christians.

They now must absolutely pretend that this man was false fake narrow-minded or something that they can dismiss, when in fact he is THEM. He is their PASTOR. He is their TEACHER. He is their wisest and most articulate.

This is like Bart Ehrman refuting the bible. He was one of their brightest and best scholars and then it clicked for him and he shook it off. Now they dismiss him like he has no voice or insight when he actually is (or was) THEM.

 

Sorry for all caps. They seemed necessary. I'm not yelling.

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This has to panic so many Christians.

They now must absolutely pretend that this man was false fake narrow-minded or something that they can dismiss, when in fact he is THEM. He is their PASTOR. He is their TEACHER. He is their wisest and most articulate.

This is like Bart Ehrman refuting the bible. He was one of their brightest and best scholars and then it clicked for him and he shook it off. Now they dismiss him like he has no voice or insight when he actually is (or was) THEM.

 

Sorry for all caps. They seemed necessary. I'm not yelling.

 

"You were never a true Christian."

 

Here are some links to others who have recently deconverted.

 

disillusionist

Video interview with Drew Bekius

pastornofaith

My son told me he's an atheist

Why I no longer believe

Life after doubt

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I've noticed when a Christian injects themselves in a topic discussion stops & the thread turns into a debate with the Christian, more often than not. The thread then becomes a lengthy argument. The original topic is usually lost in the ensuing debating & arguing. The Christian essentially takes control of the thread using provocative posts that are probably intended to kill the original point of the thread.

 

The solution would seemingly be not to engage the Christian in the first place. Unfortunately, it isn't likely posters will be able to restrain themselves & they will take the bait & find themselves attempting to change the Christians mind ...... And that means the Christian wins & the thread ends up being hijacked once again.

 

No real point to my post, I'm just pointing out the obvious with no anticipation that it will change anything.

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This is NOT the Ironhorse thread! It is about a guy who has broken out of the chains of being an apologist for a cult.

 

I want his testimony to be known to anyone who is interested.

 

I look forward to further installments from Dr. Davis.

 

Ficino,

 

I unreservedly apologize for taking this thread in a direction that you hadn't intended.

My error was to incorrectly construe that you'd placed it in the Den because Davis' example was especially relevant to claims made by a certain Christian who frequents the Den.  That was a mistake on my part.  I should have checked with you first before drawing a parallel between Davis and said Christian.  From your quoted message I see that your intention was for Davis' example to stand alone, on it's own merits and be known for what it is - not how it parallels other matters in this forum.

 

I hope this post clears up any potential bad feeling between us.

 

Sincerely,

 

BAA. 

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No bad feeling, noble Bornagainathiest! I put this thread in the Den so Christians as well as ex-Christians could reply. (After all these years I may still be off on the rules of the various sub-forums.)

 

But it seemed as though one of the Christian members here was turning it into a thread all about him.

 

Anyway, no worries. I am looking forward to updates from Davis himself.

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Thanks for posting this ficino.  I really relate to much of what Davis said although I am in no way comparing my level of religious involvement or knowledge to his.  I relate because I felt sure that the deeper I dug, my belief in the bible would be fortified and I would uncover satisfying answers for the little nagging questions that I had.  I was sure that there were good answers to why: the bible and science don't agree on many important points, slavery is not condemned, women are not considered equals, homosexuals are condemned, much of the bible authorship is unknown, the bible has many apparent contradictions, there is not good archaeological evidence for the events described in the bible, and on and on and on.  Like Davis, the more I researched, the more things unraveled until I realized that I no longer believed.     

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This has to panic so many Christians.

They now must absolutely pretend that this man was false fake narrow-minded or something that they can dismiss, when in fact he is THEM. He is their PASTOR. He is their TEACHER. He is their wisest and most articulate.

This is like Bart Ehrman refuting the bible. He was one of their brightest and best scholars and then it clicked for him and he shook it off. Now they dismiss him like he has no voice or insight when he actually is (or was) THEM.

 

Sorry for all caps. They seemed necessary. I'm not yelling.

 

Has it ever panicked them before? It may do so for a few people close to him, but the rest will use the old "he was never a true Christian" defense or some other equally lame excuse. 

 

Here's one of the guy's books:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Risen-Indeed-Making-Sense-Resurrection/dp/0802801269

 

 

Philosopher Davis argues that Christian belief in the resurrection is rational on historical, philosophical, and theological grounds. Each of the book's ten chapters takes up a different aspect of the Christian concept of bodily resurrection and subsequently deals with such matters as preservation of personal identity and soul-body dualism, issues in biblical scholarship, and the reliability of New Testament accounts.
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I look forward to the day when one of these ex-Christian professors convinces their college to start a Department of Atheist Studies. Since every secular university has a goddamn "Department of Religious Studies," I think it's time for Atheism to be recognized as a serious academic subject. 

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I look forward to the day when one of these ex-Christian professors convinces their college to start a Department of Atheist Studies. Since every secular university has a goddamn "Department of Religious Studies," I think it's time for Atheism to be recognized as a serious academic subject. 

 

Department of Atheist Studies 101 in every Christian college blurb:

 

"How will your child know to be in the world, but not of it? She must first learn not only what the unbelievers think, but how

 

Just throwing it out there.

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