Nihilism, Is It The Obvious Progression For An Ex-C?

[dichotomy]

I've been having conversations with a fellow - real life - ex-christian and he talks a lot about nihilism. I realised that I have essentially become a nihilist without really knowing what it meant at the time.

 

It seems the obvious path for me as an ex-christian, given that so much of the christianity I experienced was all about purpose, destiny, morality and meaning to life. 

 

Are most atheists nihilists? 

 

Has your loss of faith meant a complete eradication of any form of meaning and spirituality and purpose?

 

I think I find the loss of this way of thinking difficult, even though it is also freeing. I sometimes think I functioned better as a Christian because I at least had something to cling to when things were crap.

 

No idea if I'm making sense.

[yunea]

Well... I've lost my spirituality, but my brain functions better without. Now I see that I can decide my purpose here and not worry about divine plans, and I don't have to attribute neither success nor failure to anything but how much I work towards my goals. It's also my only life, my only chance to help this poor dirtball (I hope to be a scientist/mathematician).

 

So in fact I feel my meaning and purpose here more strongly than I did as a believer with all those vague purposes of "helping", "spreading joy" and laying hands on people to "heal" and thinking of anything but today, here and now.

[TheOutsider]

I guess technically I'm a nihilist, at least to some extent. Haven't really thought about it. I don't think there is any actual purpose, or reason, or point to our existence, beyond it just ultimately being a thing that happened. But I don't think nihilism is a good reason not to figure out some way to enjoy your brief excursion through consciousness, as meaningless as it may be. No telling if it will ever happen again.

 

And, as Peter Capaldi as The Doctor put it, what's wrong with pointless?

[disillusioned]

I think there's a false dichotomy that is drawn between belief in God on the one hand, and disbelief in any meaning (nihilism) on the other. It's the same sort of false dichotomy that is drawn between having God as the source of objective morality, and having no morality at all. I think its very clear that atheists do not need to be complete nihilists. Some are, and some aren't.

 

TheOutsider raises a very good point. What is wrong with pointless? We may like the idea of an ultimate purpose, but that doesn't mean that one exists. It doesn't even mean that it would be a good thing if it did. Suicide bombers believe that they are carrying out a mandate given to them by God: they are fulfilling what they deem to be their purpose. I would submit, therefore, that it is not at all clear that a belief in an ultimate purpose is in any sense better than the lack of a such a belief. It certainly cannot be shown to be objectively correct.

 

And what if there is no purpose? We still have literature, music, art, poetry, food, drink, sex, love and friendship. We still have warmth and comfort. Everything that makes life worth living still remains, even if it has no ultimate meaning. To take the view that there is no ultimate meaning simply allows us to define our own meaning and purpose. I think it is possible that this way lies happiness.

 

For myself, all I can say is that I don't know whether anything in my life is truly meaningful to anyone but me. But it is meaningful to me. If there is an ultimate purpose, I don't know what it is. So I don't worry about it. I just carry on being as happy as I can, making my family as happy as I can, and trying to do what I can to make the world a better place. I neither want nor need any further purpose than this.

[Blood]

"Nihilism" can mean whatever you want it to mean. Just like "Christianity." 

[florduh]

Belief in Christianity, or any such religion, amounts to pretending you have a Special Purpose serving an imaginary deity.

 

Pretend something else.

 

[Shinzon]

As others have said, there is a difference between what is most logical,what actually is, and what we wish. Therefore the universe could totally lack meaning and to use the buzzword it could be "nihlistic." The question is, what is actually true and what do you do about it? Hint: it doesn't necessarily make sense or following logic.

[Vigile]

I'd say it's a stop on the road that most move past. Logically, yes, everything is ultimately meaningless, but most humans are wired to hope and dream and love and tend to find deep meaning in their lives and their relationships.

[mymistake]

I've googled it and read the definition but I'm still not sure what nihilism is.  There are times I wish I had not wasted so much time and effort on a cult.  I've come to a very rational, materialist world view.  Is that nihilism?  I don't know.

[Mythra]

I think there's a false dichotomy that is drawn between belief in God on the one hand, and disbelief in any meaning (nihilism) on the other. It's the same sort of false dichotomy that is drawn between having God as the source of objective morality, and having no morality at all. I think its very clear that atheists do not need to be complete nihilists. Some are, and some aren't.

 

TheOutsider raises a very good point. What is wrong with pointless? We may like the idea of an ultimate purpose, but that doesn't mean that one exists. It doesn't even mean that it would be a good think if it did. Suicide bombers believe that they are carrying out a mandate given to them by God: they are fulfilling what they deem to be their purpose. I would submit, therefore, that it is not at all clear that a belief in an ultimate purpose is in any sense better than the lack of a such a belief. It certainly cannot be shown to be objectively correct.

 

And what if there is no purpose? We still have literature, music, art, poetry, food, drink, sex, love and friendship. We still have warmth and comfort. Everything that makes life worth living still remains, even if it has no ultimate meaning. To take the view that there is no ultimate meaning simply allows us to define our own meaning and purpose. I think it is possible that this way lies happiness.

 

For myself, all I can say is that I don't know whether anything in my life is truly meaningful to anyone but me. But it is meaningful to me. If there is an ultimate purpose, I don't know what it is. So I don't worry about it. I just carry on being as happy as I can, making my family as happy as I can, and trying to do what I can to make the world a better place. I neither want nor need any further purpose than this.

Disillusioned - that was really really good stuff.  Bravo sir.  

 

Any of you who just skimmed over that.  Take the time to read it.  Because THAT is a good answer to the nihilist question.

[violetbutterfly]

Disillusioned had a great answer.

 

I'd like to add that right now I am having a bit of a personal crisis about it. One of my biggest pet peeves is hearing "everything happens for a reason" or "it wasn't meant to be." I'm three years into trying to move past some incredibly painful disappointments and regrets. I believe that life, on a day to day basis, is a series of choices. We make a choice and we live with the results. Sometimes they are negative consequences. I'm trying to forgive myself (for choices made when I was a Christian, go figure) and also accept that I have no control over other people's choices. No matter how hard you try to fill your life with your own meaning, purpose and happiness, sometimes things are out of your control and sometimes things simply suck. But please don't tell me "everything happens for a reason" or "it wasn't meant to be." Because whether it has religious or completely secular undertones, it makes my blood boil.

[Vigile]

I've googled it and read the definition but I'm still not sure what nihilism is.  There are times I wish I had not wasted so much time and effort on a cult.  I've come to a very rational, materialist world view.  Is that nihilism?  I don't know.

 

Colloquially, it is often used to represent a world view that views life as ultimately meaningless, thus nothing really matters. Some find this depressing, some find it freeing. 

[mymistake]

 

I've googled it and read the definition but I'm still not sure what nihilism is.  There are times I wish I had not wasted so much time and effort on a cult.  I've come to a very rational, materialist world view.  Is that nihilism?  I don't know.

 

Colloquially, it is often used to represent a world view that views life as ultimately meaningless, thus nothing really matters. Some find this depressing, some find it freeing. 

 

 

 

Thanks.  It pissed me off at times that the meaning they brainwashed into me turned out to be a pack of lies.  But I still find things meaningful.  It saddens me that at most I only have about half a century left in existence but I've started to accept that this is natural.  Meaning is what we make of it.  

[Mythra]

Everything happens for a reason.  Sure.

 

And when you try and find out the reason, you learn that God doesn't give away secrets like that. 

 

I'm one of those for which nothing really matters.  And I'm good with that. 

[midniterider]

"Has your loss of faith meant a complete eradication of any form of meaning and spirituality and purpose?"

 

No, I am just free to decide my own purpose. My purpose might just be to be whom I am. My purpose may be to express love, enjoy each day , without any other goal or objective. I can also enjoy 'spiritual' feelings with another person, or with nature.

[Mythra]

So what's worse, to realize that our existence is finite, and that our individual existence doesn't amount to much of anything in the overall picture of things - 

 

or to live in a bubble of illusion that everything you do is of  importance and purpose and destiny, but you just can't quite figure out what any of that means?  Or that you are supposed to be doing something according to some master plan, but no one bothered to show you the blueprints?

 

Oh, and please, please don't tell me the holey book IS the blueprint. 

[Mythra]

 

 

Half a century, mymistake? 

 

I've only got about half that.  IF I start eating more vegetables.  

[disillusioned]

 

I think there's a false dichotomy that is drawn between belief in God on the one hand, and disbelief in any meaning (nihilism) on the other. It's the same sort of false dichotomy that is drawn between having God as the source of objective morality, and having no morality at all. I think its very clear that atheists do not need to be complete nihilists. Some are, and some aren't.

 

TheOutsider raises a very good point. What is wrong with pointless? We may like the idea of an ultimate purpose, but that doesn't mean that one exists. It doesn't even mean that it would be a good think if it did. Suicide bombers believe that they are carrying out a mandate given to them by God: they are fulfilling what they deem to be their purpose. I would submit, therefore, that it is not at all clear that a belief in an ultimate purpose is in any sense better than the lack of a such a belief. It certainly cannot be shown to be objectively correct.

 

And what if there is no purpose? We still have literature, music, art, poetry, food, drink, sex, love and friendship. We still have warmth and comfort. Everything that makes life worth living still remains, even if it has no ultimate meaning. To take the view that there is no ultimate meaning simply allows us to define our own meaning and purpose. I think it is possible that this way lies happiness.

 

For myself, all I can say is that I don't know whether anything in my life is truly meaningful to anyone but me. But it is meaningful to me. If there is an ultimate purpose, I don't know what it is. So I don't worry about it. I just carry on being as happy as I can, making my family as happy as I can, and trying to do what I can to make the world a better place. I neither want nor need any further purpose than this.

Disillusioned - that was really really good stuff.  Bravo sir.  

 

Any of you who just skimmed over that.  Take the time to read it.  Because THAT is a good answer to the nihilist question.

 

 

Thank you. I'm glad you found my response helpful.

[dichotomy]

Disillusioned had a great answer.

 

I'd like to add that right now I am having a bit of a personal crisis about it. One of my biggest pet peeves is hearing "everything happens for a reason" or "it wasn't meant to be." I'm three years into trying to move past some incredibly painful disappointments and regrets. I believe that life, on a day to day basis, is a series of choices. We make a choice and we live with the results. Sometimes they are negative consequences. I'm trying to forgive myself (for choices made when I was a Christian, go figure) and also accept that I have no control over other people's choices. No matter how hard you try to fill your life with your own meaning, purpose and happiness, sometimes things are out of your control and sometimes things simply suck. 

 

I think this is what makes life difficult for me. 

 

For the most part as an atheist the best part about it has been that there is no absolute obtainable, objective truth or purpose to life. There's no moral code or meaning or expectation, life just is. I am free to make my own meaning in life and decide what matters to me and why (well as much as anyone has free will to do so, I'm not entirely convinced we have complete free will). 

 

But, when things happen in life that are hard to deal with, and/or out of my control, which unfortunately appears to be often, it's hard not to fall into the "why bother it's all pointless anyway."

 

Ultimately I think that the fact that it is all meaningless, that *nothing* matters, is quite freeing and creates an equality that didn't exist when I was a Christian. No one thing, no one life choice or path or person is more valid than another. Success is purely subjective, everything is subjective. This makes life more interesting, because it is what you make of it, and purely because you wish to. But although I can think that on an intellectual level, I find that my emotions don't like to match up with this so easily!

[Mythra]

disillusioned;  your response here was worthy of your avatar. The great Bertrand Russell:

 

Fear is the main source of superstition, and one of the main sources of cruelty. To conquer fear is the beginning of wisdom.

Bertrand Russell

 

 

 

 

[amateur]

Overall, do I think there is an eternal, lasting purpose to everything?  No, I don't.  But was it overwhelmingly sweet of my parents to give me a fun, loving childhood full of love and attention?  Yes!  And did I pass that fun and love and attention onto my children?  Yes!  Do I think what my parents did, and what I did for my children, was important?  Yes!  Do I care that in a million years there will be nothing left of any of that? Absolutely not!

 

Is it important to me that I have beautiful memories of my parents and who they were and what they did with me, even though they are both now dead and as far as I know completely out of existence?  Yes, yes, a thousand times yes!

[disillusioned]

 

Disillusioned had a great answer.

 

I'd like to add that right now I am having a bit of a personal crisis about it. One of my biggest pet peeves is hearing "everything happens for a reason" or "it wasn't meant to be." I'm three years into trying to move past some incredibly painful disappointments and regrets. I believe that life, on a day to day basis, is a series of choices. We make a choice and we live with the results. Sometimes they are negative consequences. I'm trying to forgive myself (for choices made when I was a Christian, go figure) and also accept that I have no control over other people's choices. No matter how hard you try to fill your life with your own meaning, purpose and happiness, sometimes things are out of your control and sometimes things simply suck. 

 

I think this is what makes life difficult for me. 

 

For the most part as an atheist the best part about it has been that there is no absolute obtainable, objective truth or purpose to life. There's no moral code or meaning or expectation, life just is. I am free to make my own meaning in life and decide what matters to me and why (well as much as anyone has free will to do so, I'm not entirely convinced we have complete free will). 

 

But, when things happen in life that are hard to deal with, and/or out of my control, which unfortunately appears to be often, it's hard not to fall into the "why bother it's all pointless anyway."

 

Ultimately I think that the fact that it is all meaningless, that *nothing* matters, is quite freeing and creates an equality that didn't exist when I was a Christian. No one thing, no one life choice or path or person is more valid than another. Success is purely subjective, everything is subjective. This makes life more interesting, because it is what you make of it, and purely because you wish to. But although I can think that on an intellectual level, I find that my emotions don't like to match up with this so easily!

 

 

Personally, when things that I cannot control happen, I find comfort in the fact that it ultimately doesn't matter. 200 years from now, no one will know who I was or what I did with my life. It won't matter if I die at 75 or 85 or 35. So I don't waste too much time worrying about the things that I can't control. But there are some things that I can control, and I try to do what I can with those. And yes, sometimes things just suck. In those times, we just carry on. Because what else can we do? Get busy living, or get busy dying. I choose life.

[Mythra]

So, as far as being nihilistic goes, we should probably be clear what we're talking about, as it's a very big term with a great many variations.

 

If it's as described in the OP,[ Has your loss of faith meant a complete eradication of any form of meaning and spirituality and purpose ]

yes, I can get onboard with that.

 

If it's this: Nihilism is sometimes used in association with anomie to explain the general mood of despair at a perceived pointlessness of existence that one may develop upon realising there are no necessary norms, rules, or laws.

 

That doesn't describe me at all.  I'm with Disillusioned.  I enjoy life.  I love life.  I love love. I love laughter.  And I don't have any issues whatsoever with despair or melancholy.

 

So, I'm an atheist for sure, and have been for 10 years.  But nihilism,maybe not so much.

[Avandris]

Beautifully said, Disillusioned!

[Blood]

We shouldn't be afraid of words, especially vague and elastic ones like "nihilist." It's just as vague as "believer." It can mean what you want it to mean. 

 

I'm a nihilist. I accept that life -- all life -- has no special meaning or purpose. We can, however, do things that might temporarily make it purposeful for some other person or animal. Ease their pain, or ours. There is no especial meaning to such gestures, but they help make up for all the people trying to screw us, financially or otherwise. 

 

Quite frankly, I think "life" is pretty much a joke. Our so-called society and civilization is a joke. We are one tiny step above a baboon, and yet we act like our stuff doesn't stink like a baboon's. But the truth is, it does. How pathetic that we cannot accept this. 

 

The biggest joke of all was "Abrahamic monotheism." The worst of all man's bad ideas, not the least because it's treated as if it were the best.