Trump Or Carson

[Mythra]

My point here is Iran is a nation.   Islam is one of the world's major religions.  

 

We have travel bans or severe restrictions to other nations.  Cuba (until recently) and North Korea come to mind. But you can't ban travel to and from a religion. 

 

C'mon.  

[mymistake]

 

BO, I like you man, you say what you think, you take no prisoners and just don't care what anyone else thinks about it.  That's why I think I can tell you without risk of you taking offense:  you're fucked up.

 

Japan has a much more closed, less diverse culture than America.  It's not just that they don't want muslims there, they don't want foreigners there.  Except as tourists.  

 

America claims to be the melting pot.  Because if you just go back a few generations, all of us here are immigrants. (except for full blooded native americans)

 

Apples and oranges, my friend.  

 

 

Mythra, thank you for understanding where I'm coming from.  That is a feat most of my critics on here have not achieved.  And I DON'T take offense

 

 

 

Nah, we do get that you are fucked up.  We get you.

 

 

 

What I have a problem with are those who have intent to kill me, my family, friends and my countrymen and women. 

 

And also those you presume have that intent.

 

 

 

Nobody condemns Japan for their stand on immigration for not allowing immigrants in, but even a hint of limiting it here, there is a bloody outcry.

 

I have no legal right to vote in Japan so I don't elect the leaders in Japan and have no influence of public policy there.  See how that works?  My main interest is in the country where I actually can vote.

 

 

 

That is how I see it. 

 

Your perception is kind of whack.

[Mythra]

I think about things like the Japanese Internment during WW2.  Kristallnacht. Serbian ethnic cleansing.  KKK.

 

This muslim ban thing has the appearance of the same type of fear and hatred and inhumanity. And it's going to incite all kinds of goofy fuckers who fire bomb and bomb and shoot up american mosques.   I can't get onboard with it.  At all.

 

No amount of fear is worth becoming something less than a human being.  

[Mythra]

Does anyone see a possible 3-way, if Trump doesn't get the nod? How do you think that would affect the outcome?

Let me make a little prediction.  I know it's a little presumptuous and outspoken, but hey, that's what I do.   

 

Manage a trois?  Congrats Hillary.

 

If anyone other than Rubio or Kasich get the republican nomination, it will also be congratulations madame president.  Which isn't a bad thing in my book.  Look who one of her main advisors would be.  A two term president who didn't fuck things up half as bad as most have recently. (and is widely regarded as being one of the most savvy politicians in our lifetimes)

 

 And it would be cool during our lifetimes if we saw the first black president and the first female president.

[Mythra]

Burnedout said:

 

That is OT, Jewish.  NT does not tell people to go and kill people.  

 

 

And are you familiar enough with Quran and Islam to know that it's not a similar situation with them?  That a vast majority of muslims are intelligent enough and advanced enough to disregard passages that say they must kill all the infidels?

 

Because I'm not that familiar with it.  I have a feeling it's very similar to christianity, where they take some and they leave some.

 

Otherwise, we'd have a billion jihadists.  Which we don't. 

[Daffodil]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Islam, as taught in the Koran, instructs in MANY places to kill those who are not Muslim.

Okay.  Good so far.  Now, according to the very standard you are talking about here, you should also be afraid of all christians and jews. If you have any religion other than worshipping Yahweh, that would be considered "worshipping other gods", since atheism or agnosticism was (probably) non-existent during the bronze age people of palestine.

 

Exodus 22

²⁰ “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed.^[

 

^{Deuteronomy 13}

⁶ If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, ⁷ gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), ⁸ do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. ⁹ You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people.

 

Deuteronomy 12

¹² If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in ¹³ that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), ¹⁴ then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, ¹⁵ you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,^[b] both its people and its livestock.

 

 

That is OT, Jewish.  NT does not tell people to go and kill people.

Oh no, BO, you didn't! That's a classic Christian defense! How could you!?

[mwc]

     It's like deja vu.

 

          mwc

[mymistake]

And you presume the opposite.  

 

 

Nope.  You can't back that up by quoting anything I have said.  I don't presume what a large block of people think because they are individuals.

 

 

 

 

Cop out.

 

Not true.  There are 196 countries in the world.  I don't have time to be outraged by everything each one of them does wrong.  You are being dishonest in attempting to create hypocrisy where it doesn't exist.  Well, in many other ways too.  This was just one more example.

[mymistake]

 

 

You haven't convinced me.  

 

 

 

I'm not a miracle worker.

[Mythra]

So, BO, let me ask you this:  let's assume for the sake of discussion that we could (permanently) close our borders to all muslims.  If they left, none would be allowed back into the country, even if they were U.S. citizens.  What do you see that accomplishing?  Both in the united states and in the muslim world outside the u.s.?  Keep in mind that there are an estimated 4 million muslims currently living in the United States.

[Mythra]

What if that action (closing our borders) was seen as a escalation of the u.s. vs. islam misconception and it radicalized 25 percent of the muslims already here -  we would have 1 million radicalized muslims living inside our borders.  Five times the total number of isis.

[Mythra]

Don't mean to corner you, BO.  Because I don't have the solution either.  It's a tough fucking problem the world is facing.  And from what I hear on the various news channels, no one is completely sure how to go about dealing with it.  But I'm pretty sure the Trump solution - or the BO solution won't solve it.

[Mythra]

Just so you know, you and I probably have the same opinion about the religion of islam.  I fucking hate it.  But the humanist in me has a hard time hating all muslims.  I bet if you met a great number of them, you would see they are just people.  I bet a lot of them hate the religion of islam too.  But they are imprisoned with no choice but to go with the program.  

[Vigile]

 

BO, I like you man, you say what you think, you take no prisoners and just don't care what anyone else thinks about it.  That's why I think I can tell you without risk of you taking offense:  you're fucked up.

 

Japan has a much more closed, less diverse culture than America.  It's not just that they don't want muslims there, they don't want foreigners there.  Except as tourists.  

 

America claims to be the melting pot.  Because if you just go back a few generations, all of us here are immigrants. (except for full blooded native americans)

 

Apples and oranges, my friend.  

 

 

Mythra, thank you for understanding where I'm coming from.  That is a feat most of my critics on here have not achieved.  And I DON'T take offense

 

I have no problem with immigrants, NONE.  What I have a problem with are those who have intent to kill me, my family, friends and my countrymen and women.  Islam, as taught in the Koran, instructs in MANY places to kill those who are not Muslim.  That to me is an existential threat.  We have seen the effects of 911, the Mumbai attacks, the Paris attacks, San Bernadino attacks and many many others that have not even been mentioned.  I see a sort of double standard here.  People will compare Japan in a gun argument but not in the immigration context.  Nobody condemns Japan for their stand on immigration for not allowing immigrants in, but even a hint of limiting it here, there is a bloody outcry.  It is popular to bash America who takes in more immigration than about any other nation, but it is OK for other nations to be more restrictive.  That is how I see it.  

 

 

You do understand that the vast majority of them don't take their book literally and that they cherry pick what they believe, just like all religions?

 

My Muslim friend who lives across the road from me posted this on his FB page:

 

[Vigile]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Islam, as taught in the Koran, instructs in MANY places to kill those who are not Muslim.  

 

Okay.  Good so far.  Now, according to the very standard you are talking about here, you should also be afraid of all christians and jews. If you have any religion other than worshipping Yahweh, that would be considered "worshipping other gods", since atheism or agnosticism was (probably) non-existent during the bronze age people of palestine.

 

Exodus 22

²⁰ “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed.^[

 

^{Deuteronomy 13}

⁶ If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, ⁷ gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), ⁸ do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. ⁹ You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people.

 

Deuteronomy 12

¹² If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in ¹³ that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), ¹⁴ then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, ¹⁵ you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,^[b] both its people and its livestock.

 

 

 

That is OT, Jewish.  NT does not tell people to go and kill people.  

 

 

I've already shown you how Jesus himself told them they have to follow the OT, but right here you acknowledge cherry picking from the xians, while refusing to acknowledge that the Muslims do it. Sounds to me like you're just scared. 

[Daffodil]

 

 

BO, I like you man, you say what you think, you take no prisoners and just don't care what anyone else thinks about it.  That's why I think I can tell you without risk of you taking offense:  you're fucked up.

 

Japan has a much more closed, less diverse culture than America.  It's not just that they don't want muslims there, they don't want foreigners there.  Except as tourists.  

 

America claims to be the melting pot.  Because if you just go back a few generations, all of us here are immigrants. (except for full blooded native americans)

 

Apples and oranges, my friend.

 

 

 

Mythra, thank you for understanding where I'm coming from.  That is a feat most of my critics on here have not achieved.  And I DON'T take offense

 

I have no problem with immigrants, NONE.  What I have a problem with are those who have intent to kill me, my family, friends and my countrymen and women.  Islam, as taught in the Koran, instructs in MANY places to kill those who are not Muslim.  That to me is an existential threat.  We have seen the effects of 911, the Mumbai attacks, the Paris attacks, San Bernadino attacks and many many others that have not even been mentioned.  I see a sort of double standard here.  People will compare Japan in a gun argument but not in the immigration context.  Nobody condemns Japan for their stand on immigration for not allowing immigrants in, but even a hint of limiting it here, there is a bloody outcry.  It is popular to bash America who takes in more immigration than about any other nation, but it is OK for other nations to be more restrictive.  That is how I see it.

 

You do understand that the vast majority of them don't take their book literally and that they cherry pick what they believe, just like all religions?

 

My Muslim friend who lives across the road from me posted this on his FB page:

 

First I'd like to say that I am on the side of Mythra and you, Vigile, but I have to say that holding up a sign does not prove anything and does not accomplish anything. Those Muslims who are genuinely peaceful are painfully silent about ISIS. Unless there is a worldwide media ban on stories of everyday Muslims speaking out, there just aren't any.

[Vigile]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Islam, as taught in the Koran, instructs in MANY places to kill those who are not Muslim.  

 

Okay.  Good so far.  Now, according to the very standard you are talking about here, you should also be afraid of all christians and jews. If you have any religion other than worshipping Yahweh, that would be considered "worshipping other gods", since atheism or agnosticism was (probably) non-existent during the bronze age people of palestine.

 

Exodus 22

²⁰ “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed.^[

 

^{Deuteronomy 13}

⁶ If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, ⁷ gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), ⁸ do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. ⁹ You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people.

 

Deuteronomy 12

¹² If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in ¹³ that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), ¹⁴ then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, ¹⁵ you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,^[b] both its people and its livestock.

 

 

 

That is OT, Jewish.  NT does not tell people to go and kill people.  

 

 

I've already shown you how Jesus himself told them they have to follow the OT, but right here you acknowledge cherry picking from the xians, while refusing to acknowledge that the Muslims do it. Sounds to me like you're just scared. 

 

 

 

If they want to kill me, my family, my friends and anybody else I might care about because I am not fucking Muslim.  Hell yes I would be scared but it is for good reason in my estimation.  However, if you want to know the New Testament where it starts, look at Hebrews Chapter 9.  I agree with what Putin did in Chechnya.  

 

 

If you need actual good reasons to fear, you should fear getting out on the road with other drivers as they are mindbogglingly vastly more likely to kill you than a Muslim. In fact, if you fear getting killed by a Muslim, you better stay indoors because you're also more likely to get killed by a bolt of lightning than a Jihadist. 

 

And if you agree with what Putin did in Chechnya, then Muslims are right to fear you more than you are right to fear them. But let's not let reason get in our way. Let's just all wet ourselves in panic and buy more weapons with tax payer money. 

[Vigile]

 

 

 

BO, I like you man, you say what you think, you take no prisoners and just don't care what anyone else thinks about it.  That's why I think I can tell you without risk of you taking offense:  you're fucked up.

 

Japan has a much more closed, less diverse culture than America.  It's not just that they don't want muslims there, they don't want foreigners there.  Except as tourists.  

 

America claims to be the melting pot.  Because if you just go back a few generations, all of us here are immigrants. (except for full blooded native americans)

 

Apples and oranges, my friend.

 

 

Mythra, thank you for understanding where I'm coming from.  That is a feat most of my critics on here have not achieved.  And I DON'T take offense

 

I have no problem with immigrants, NONE.  What I have a problem with are those who have intent to kill me, my family, friends and my countrymen and women.  Islam, as taught in the Koran, instructs in MANY places to kill those who are not Muslim.  That to me is an existential threat.  We have seen the effects of 911, the Mumbai attacks, the Paris attacks, San Bernadino attacks and many many others that have not even been mentioned.  I see a sort of double standard here.  People will compare Japan in a gun argument but not in the immigration context.  Nobody condemns Japan for their stand on immigration for not allowing immigrants in, but even a hint of limiting it here, there is a bloody outcry.  It is popular to bash America who takes in more immigration than about any other nation, but it is OK for other nations to be more restrictive.  That is how I see it.

 

You do understand that the vast majority of them don't take their book literally and that they cherry pick what they believe, just like all religions?

 

My Muslim friend who lives across the road from me posted this on his FB page:

 

First I'd like to say that I am on the side of Mythra and you, Vigile, but I have to say that holding up a sign does not prove anything and does not accomplish anything. Those Muslims who are genuinely peaceful are painfully silent about ISIS. Unless there is a worldwide media ban on stories of everyday Muslims speaking out, there just aren't any.

 

 

Why are all 1B Muslims in the world responsible for apologizing for the handful of crazies in their lot? Are all xians responsible for apologizing for Westboro?

 

And, yes, there are tons of stories out there where Muslims actually do apologize and distance themselves. It's just not reported in the US MSM.

 

Here are two stories you may have missed: 

 

American Muslims raise more than $100,000 for families of San Bernardino shooting victims

 

 

Muslims raise $48,000 to rebuild burned black churches

[Daffodil]

Thank you, Vigile, for the links to those stories. As I said, maybe there is a media blackout on it, because the stories just are not promoted. As far as apologizing, I don't need or expect them to apologize - it's not their fault. But if the Westboro crazies were killing people or inciting others to kill people, I would be just as dismayed if no "sane" Christians spoke up to denounce their behavior. As a Christian I would do everything in my power to show the world that they do not represent me and my faith. As it is, they do nothing to harm others and their numbers are minuscule, so the most effective way to deal with them is to ignore them. Where are the Imams shouting from the rooftops that these people are not Muslims? Are they actively searching for young Muslim men and doing everything they can to dissuade them from radicalizing? Maybe they're too scared of reprisals. I don't know, but the silence is deafening.

[Daffodil]

Interestingly, in the first article, the Muslim doctor actually said that if society could not see what Muslims were doing to improve their image, then he/they are not doing enough (paraphrased).

[Vigile]

Thank you, Vigile, for the links to those stories. As I said, maybe there is a media blackout on it, because the stories just are not promoted. As far as apologizing, I don't need or expect them to apologize - it's not their fault. But if the Westboro crazies were killing people or inciting others to kill people, I would be just as dismayed if no "sane" Christians spoke up to denounce their behavior. As a Christian I would do everything in my power to show the world that they do not represent me and my faith. As it is, they do nothing to harm others and their numbers are minuscule, so the most effective way to deal with them is to ignore them. Where are the Imams shouting from the rooftops that these people are not Muslims? Are they actively searching for young Muslim men and doing everything they can to dissuade them from radicalizing? Maybe they're too scared of reprisals. I don't know, but the silence is deafening.

 

You remember the attack in Tunis a few months ago? Muslim hotel workers actually banded together and held hands to protect the tourists from the attackers; some of them were killed in doing so. That never made it's way into the western media cycle as far as I know as it doesn't represent the message they want to get across. 

 

Also, remember the rest of the world isn't nearly as media obsessed as our culture is. 

 

Take everything you're being told with a grain of salt as we're all being played for political purposes. Before Muslims, the same games went on over the red scare. 

[Vigile]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Islam, as taught in the Koran, instructs in MANY places to kill those who are not Muslim.

Okay.  Good so far.  Now, according to the very standard you are talking about here, you should also be afraid of all christians and jews. If you have any religion other than worshipping Yahweh, that would be considered "worshipping other gods", since atheism or agnosticism was (probably) non-existent during the bronze age people of palestine.

 

Exodus 22

²⁰ “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed.^[

 

^{Deuteronomy 13}

⁶ If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, ⁷ gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), ⁸ do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. ⁹ You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people.

 

Deuteronomy 12

¹² If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in ¹³ that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), ¹⁴ then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, ¹⁵ you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely,^[b] both its people and its livestock.

 

 

That is OT, Jewish.  NT does not tell people to go and kill people.

 

I've already shown you how Jesus himself told them they have to follow the OT, but right here you acknowledge cherry picking from the xians, while refusing to acknowledge that the Muslims do it. Sounds to me like you're just scared.

 

 

If they want to kill me, my family, my friends and anybody else I might care about because I am not fucking Muslim.  Hell yes I would be scared but it is for good reason in my estimation.  However, if you want to know the New Testament where it starts, look at Hebrews Chapter 9.  I agree with what Putin did in Chechnya.

 

If you need actual good reasons to fear, you should fear getting out on the road with other drivers as they are mindbogglingly vastly more likely to kill you than a Muslim. In fact, if you fear getting killed by a Muslim, you better stay indoors because you're also more likely to get killed by a bolt of lightning than a Jihadist. 

 

And if you agree with what Putin did in Chechnya, then Muslims are right to fear you more than you are right to fear them. But let's not let reason get in our way. Let's just all wet ourselves in panic and buy more weapons with tax payer money.

I'm sure people said the same thing in Britain, France, and other European countries 10 years ago before it got out of hand, but look what you have now, NO GO zones and women being raped. I don't want a repeat of what is going on in Europe over here. I don't buy your logic.

 

 

It's not out of hand in Europe. If you think that, you might want to rethink your media sources; i.e. Britain First and Pam Geller. 

[Daffodil]

 

Thank you, Vigile, for the links to those stories. As I said, maybe there is a media blackout on it, because the stories just are not promoted. As far as apologizing, I don't need or expect them to apologize - it's not their fault. But if the Westboro crazies were killing people or inciting others to kill people, I would be just as dismayed if no "sane" Christians spoke up to denounce their behavior. As a Christian I would do everything in my power to show the world that they do not represent me and my faith. As it is, they do nothing to harm others and their numbers are minuscule, so the most effective way to deal with them is to ignore them. Where are the Imams shouting from the rooftops that these people are not Muslims? Are they actively searching for young Muslim men and doing everything they can to dissuade them from radicalizing? Maybe they're too scared of reprisals. I don't know, but the silence is deafening.

 

 

You remember the attack in Tunis a few months ago? Muslim hotel workers actually banded together and held hands to protect the tourists from the attackers; some of them were killed in doing so. That never made it's way into the western media cycle as far as I know as it doesn't represent the message they want to get across. 

 

Also, remember the rest of the world isn't nearly as media obsessed as our culture is. 

 

Take everything you're being told with a grain of salt as we're all being played for political purposes. Before Muslims, the same games went on over the red scare.

Alright, I'll look a little harder.

[Vigile]

Well, I've actually spent the past 20 years living in and traveling around Europe. I call shenanigans and a narrow press lens. 

[Vigile]

BTW, I'm probably more at risk from a terror attack than all of you guys. I actually had a ticket for the Nevsky Express train that was blown up by Chechens a few years back. My schedule changed, so I changed my ticket and rode the same train a day early.

 

Like Mythra, I choose not to live my life cowering in fear of very minor threats. If I'm not afraid to drive my car on Russian roads (and to be honest, I am a little), why should I fear getting killed by a terrorist, which is infinitely less likely?