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Goodbye Jesus

The Gospel According To John 14 Thru 17


Mythra

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Jesus is praying.  And praying and praying.  

 

Who recorded this at the time in aramaic?  And was able to faithfully deliver it, word, for word, at least 70 years later in a different language?

 

Supposedly the disciples were illiterate.  Are we to believe that one of them had a photographic memory?  Are we to believe that an angel showed up, long after the fact and told a greek man somewhere to take dictation?  Perhaps the angel's name was Moroni.

 

I don't know.

 

But I have an idea that the answer is simpler (and vastly more believable)  than that.  

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It is quite common in fictional writing to allow the reader special access to events, scenes, conversations, etc.

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It can't be that.  We're talking about the bible here.  The letters are in RED.  That means Jesus said it.  

 

Everyone knows that.  

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Maybe it was the holy spirit.  And, at a later time, the holy spirit was able to show a clip of the event, YouTube style, to the individual who was writing the story.

 

I'd hate to see the validity of the entire Gospel of John go down in flames because we can't come up with a rational explanation here.

 

I mean, John 3:16, right?  A lot is riding on this.  

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I know everyone here has read these chapters in John as a christian.  GJohn is a fave.  For some christians, this is the only book in the bible worth reading.

 

Did any of you run into a "stumbling block" like this?  Or were you blinded by faith and trust, as so many believers are, so you never even considered that things written there were someone's invention, a product of human imagination,  as sdelsolray mentions?

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I'm slowly working my way through it but I have been reading a book by john Dominic crossan and he argues in a way I find very convincing that in essence the writers often reported theological and philosophical truths like they were historical events to make purely non historical points. Though he doesn't say it upfront as far as I can tell it seems like he thinks either at the time of writing of the gospels this didn't matter or it was understood by those reading the gospels that this was the authors intent.

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What's the name of the book, Shinzon?

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What's the name of the book, Shinzon?

Jesus a revolutionary biography
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Jesus is praying.  And praying and praying.  

 

Who recorded this at the time in aramaic?  And was able to faithfully deliver it, word, for word, at least 70 years later in a different language?

 

Supposedly the disciples were illiterate.  Are we to believe that one of them had a photographic memory?  Are we to believe that an angel showed up, long after the fact and told a greek man somewhere to take dictation?  Perhaps the angel's name was Moroni.

 

I don't know.

 

But I have an idea that the answer is simpler (and vastly more believable)  than that.  

Oh, easy! and in fact, the answer is right there in the section of the bible you mention. John 14;26...Jesus tells the disciples... "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

 

They didn't sit there and transcribe every word as he spoke...the Holy Spirit gave them the ability to remember every word.

 

This is apologetics 101. One of the first "bible answers" i learned.

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Jesus is praying.  And praying and praying.  

 

Who recorded this at the time in aramaic?  And was able to faithfully deliver it, word, for word, at least 70 years later in a different language?

 

Supposedly the disciples were illiterate.  Are we to believe that one of them had a photographic memory?  Are we to believe that an angel showed up, long after the fact and told a greek man somewhere to take dictation?  Perhaps the angel's name was Moroni.

 

I don't know.

 

But I have an idea that the answer is simpler (and vastly more believable)  than that.  

 

You're not supposed to ask questions. Like all fairy tales, once you start asking questions, the story is destroyed. 

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This is apologetics 101. One of the first "bible answers" i learned.

 

apologetics 101 seems to gloss over the fact that whoever wrote the gospel according to John could not have been the disciple John..Unless he learned fluent Greek and became an accomplished theologian and wrote the book when he was about 110 years old.   But, i know - i know - it's right there in writing  - IN THE BIBLE -  the gospel according to JOHN.

 

the term gospel truth is an oxymoron. 

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^^^ Oxymoron indeed!

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This is apologetics 101. One of the first "bible answers" i learned.

 

apologetics 101 seems to gloss over the fact that whoever wrote the gospel according to John could not have been the disciple John..Unless he learned fluent Greek and became an accomplished theologian and wrote the book when he was about 110 years old.   But, i know - i know - it's right there in writing  - IN THE BIBLE -  the gospel according to JOHN.

 

the term gospel truth is an oxymoron. 

 

I want to make sure I have your question right: How is it possible for the exact words of Jesus to have been accurately recorded in John 14-17 when he was praying alone with the 12, who were illiterate fishermen? Is that the question? because the answer that is always given by xtians is found in John 14:26. "The holy spirit whom the father will give you in my name, will teach you all things and will bring to your remembrance all that I have told you"...

 

I gave you the apologetics answer: Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would give his followers perfect recall of everything he said. Can you see how perfect it is? There's no answer for that one, because it was the Spirit...aka God himself...who told the author of the gospel of John EXACTLY what Jesus said. How can anyone argue with that? Even if John was written 100 years later...perfect recall is nothing to the creator of all, who holds all things together by his word. Right?

 

Apologetics 101.

 

And what I mean by that is... Xtians always have an answer, and it is ALWAYS in the Bible.

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The Holy Spirit inspired Matthew to recall that the priests bought the Field of Blood with Judas' 30 pieces of silver, while the HS inspired Luke to recall Peter saying that Judas bought the Field of Blood with the money.

 

The HS inspired Matthew to recall that Peter denied Jesus three times before the cock crowed. The HS inspired Mark to recall that the cock crowed after Peter denied Jesus the first time, and it crowed a second time after two more denials.

 

Etc.

 

But ... epic win for the Holy Ghost! All have won, and all shall have prizes.

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It's interesting, because the Holy Spirit must have decided not to give the author of Mark the correct ending of his gospel, or to give an ending that would contradict the other canonical gospels. Four different endings, depending on the manuscript.

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I wonder why the Holy Spirit never told the authors of Mark, Luke, or Matthew about the raising of Lazarus.  Kind of a significant event to leave out, I would think.

 

 And why did the Holy spirit neglect to tell them about the "He who is without sin, throw the first stone" story? People LOVE that story.  

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If we start nitpicking the Bible, where do we stop? Christians will believe what they wish.

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Of course.  And I'm not trying to convince any christians that might pop in here that their shit is whacked.  I'm trying to help ex-christians understand that their shit was whacked and not worth worrying about any more. 

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Of course.  And I'm not trying to convince any christians that might pop in here that their shit is whacked.  I'm trying to help ex-christians understand that their shit was whacked and not worth worrying about any more. 

 

Who was there to witness the Wise Men following a Star, or Shepherds abiding in a field? And what kind of a "god" would allow billions of his children to suffer eternal punishment? What kind of a "god" would send 2 she bears to tear apart 42 young children who laughed at a bald man? Perhaps there should be a thread devoted to Bible contradictions and inconsistancies.

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     The holy spirit told them to all sort of cheat off one another's papers (especially old Matt, Mark and Luke) because it's not like anyone was going to notice.  The spirit reminded them that pretty much everyone was freaking illiterate, and those who could read pretty much didn't give a shit what they said and would just gloss over most of it anyway, so it would totally work.  And you know what?  The spirit was right.  That holy spirit came through just like the gospel promised.

 

     So you guys quit dumping on the holy spirit because it ain't around to defend itself.  It never is.  And don't you forget it.

 

          mwc

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Perhaps there should be a thread devoted to Bible contradictions and inconsistancies.

Maybe add to this one?

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/70273-collection-of-biblical-contradictions#.VlHaN3arSM8

 

 

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Perhaps there should be a thread devoted to Bible contradictions and inconsistancies.

Maybe add to this one?

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/70273-collection-of-biblical-contradictions#.VlHaN3arSM8

 

 

 

 

I added one.

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I wonder why the Holy Spirit never told the authors of Mark, Luke, or Matthew about the raising of Lazarus.  Kind of a significant event to leave out, I would think.

 

 And why did the Holy spirit neglect to tell them about the "He who is without sin, throw the first stone" story? People LOVE that story.  

Just out of curiosity, not only Mythra, but others who are responding in this thread...didn't any of you ever hear that answer? The one about the holy spirit giving the ability to recall everything Jesus said, and that's how we know it is accurate...because the HS told them what he said?

 

Because that IS the answer that Xtians give, isn't it? When someone says "well, they weren't sitting there taking notes while he spoke" isn't that the standard reply? "well, see here?? Jesus *said* the HS would give them perfect recall"...Am i the only one who ever heard (or used) that?

 

I mean, this is ex-Christians, right? that is, at some point in your life, you WERE a Xtian? Surely in your believing days you argued FOR the stories in the bible, right? Surely you used to lean heavily on the bible for all your answers?  you believed it deeply and read it, quoted it, believed what the preachers said...?

 

Anyway, like I said...just curiosity. if you haven't found my story on the ex-timony forum, just let me tell you I consider the bible pretty much bunk. I just know what Xtians say when confronted by certain questions. The story of how Judas died..."well he hung himself and then after he rotted, the branch broke and he fell down and hit guts busted open" ...right? anyone hear that one?

 

Sorry if I come across confrontative. It just piqued my interest...these questions have been around for a long time. Christians have been "answering" them for a long time. Surely we, as such, had opportunity to answer them. Right?

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I was a xian for over 20 years. I knew the xian answer. My question was basically tongue-in-cheek.

 

Because I know the real answer.  John's gospel is fabricated.  The author used Mark as a general outline, but went completely off the grid with all of the "I Am" sayings, a complete departure of Jesus' nature from the other gospels, belief in Jesus being the factor that saves you,  major events that no one else recorded, different timelines, etc.  The writer of John's gospel had an agenda.  He used Jesus as a sock puppet to sell his theology.  And chapters 14 thru 17 where Jesus is praying is whole-cloth fiction.  An exercise in creative writing.

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Sorry if I come across confrontative. It just piqued my interest...these questions have been around for a long time. Christians have been "answering" them for a long time. Surely we, as such, had opportunity to answer them. Right?

 

No worries.  I can understand the confusion.  You were probably WTF?  This guy was a christian but doesn't know about the holy spirit dictation system??   LOL

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