Well That Was The Old Testament

[Mythra]

I just looked it up and I missed one -  the torn curtain meant no more slicing the throats of doves in order to make god happy.  Seeing his son on the cross satiated him enough.  

 

But the zombie parade kind of makes the curtain thing less of an issue.  

 

I bet the writer of Matthew's gospel wishes he had a better editor. 

[Mythra]

 

 

Exactly.  We end up with 1,000 different denominations of christians, with 1,000 different interpretations of the bible.  But God is not the author of confusion.  Riiiiight.

 

If the bible were the word of god, you might think believing in it might make for a better class of people too.  Westboro Baptist, anyone? 

 

Once some missionaries came around and asked me if I wanted to go to heaven.  I said - I'm not sure.  Will there be a bunch of christians there?  They left.  

[Mythra]

You know, the old testament / new testament incongruity has been an issue since, forever.  In the second century there was a branch of christianity that subscribed to the idea that the old testament god and the new testament god were not the same.  It was known as Marcionism, and of course, it was branded heretical and disappeared from the scene after a few hundred years.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcionism

[Blood]

Yes, you might notice, that the canonical New Testament doesn't actually cite many passages about Yahweh from the Torah. It's pretty coy about the whole deal, like when the Pauline epistles say that "angels" gave the Torah to Moses, not Yahweh. 

 

As far as I can recall, nobody in the NT says something unambiguous, like "God the Father, who shut the door on the ark, is the father of Jesus." 

 

I used to buy into the "consensus" that Gnosticism was just a later heresy. But now I think it's more complicated than that. Gnosticism was early. 

[Mythra]

It's kind of amazing that we know what we do about the heretics.  The ortho-docs did everything they could to destroy the competition.  Only thing is, by writing their contra's, they ended up preserving works like Celsus and Montanus.  Nag Hammadi was a nice find as well, to give us a little more insight into the wide variety of thought that existed back then.  

[mymistake]

  

I bet the writer of Matthew's gospel wishes he had a better editor. 

 

Are you kidding?  He invented the Zombie Apocalypse meme!  Think of all the great Hollywood movies that would never exist if it had not been for the Gospel of Mathew.

 

 

[Mythra]

I vote for I Am Legend. Some of the other ones just have too much shit goin on.  

 

I fell asleep right in the middle of World War Z.  

[Wittyusername]

As far as I can recall, nobody in the NT says something unambiguous, like "God the Father, who shut the door on the ark, is the father of Jesus."

I once sat through a sermon which explained how when, after the crucifixion Jesus 'descended into the lower parts' this is actually what happened; I went to speak through Noah to convince the flood people to repent.

 

There were all sorts of verses as 'evidence' that Jesus was preaching through Noah. This answered the question of whether it was cruel for God to drown the world; they had been preached to by no less than Jesus himself and refused to repent, so they deserved it and those below 'the age of accountability ' would have the special rules which cover all that. It also said how the teaching that Jesus went to hell is a lie of the devil - he went to the Noah's flood people.

[Vigile]

The bible is just a grab basket that is used to support current, constantly evolving, opinions of the so-called believer. When contradictions are encountered, they just go to the standard bag of excuses, such as 'new covenant'. None of this is ever thoroughly or rigorously put to the test as that defeats the whole point, which is they believe whatever group think loop they happen to be stuck in.

[mymistake]

The bible is just a grab basket that is used to support current, constantly evolving, opinions of the so-called believer. When contradictions are encountered, they just go to the standard bag of excuses, such as 'new covenant'. None of this is ever thoroughly or rigorously put to the test as that defeats the whole point, which is they believe whatever group think loop they happen to be stuck in.

 

 

Exactly.  When asked where Jesus is in the Old Testament Christians will cherry pick verses and claim those verses have code names that mean Jesus.  They say those a Jesus' other names.

 

 

 

 

But with interpretations like that they could mean anything.  How do we know that "Wonderful Counselor" in the Old Testament doesn't mean Harry Potter?  See?  Harry Potter is in the Old Testament!

[Wittyusername]

 

The bible is just a grab basket that is used to support current, constantly evolving, opinions of the so-called believer. When contradictions are encountered, they just go to the standard bag of excuses, such as 'new covenant'. None of this is ever thoroughly or rigorously put to the test as that defeats the whole point, which is they believe whatever group think loop they happen to be stuck in.

 

Exactly. When asked where Jesus is in the Old Testament Christians will cherry pick verses and claim those verses have code names that mean Jesus. They say those a Jesus' other names.

 

 

 

 

But with interpretations like that they could mean anything. How do we know that "Wonderful Counselor" in the Old Testament doesn't mean Harry Potter? See? Harry Potter is in the Old Testament!

I once had a Muslim show me verses in Psalms (I think) which he said were about Mohammed using the methods you describe. See, anyone can do it. A literary game of 'Where's Waldo'.

[Daffodil]

I vote for I Am Legend. Some of the other ones just have too much shit goin on.  

 

I fell asleep right in the middle of World War Z.

 

Speedy zombies freak me out. I prefer the slow stupid zombies in Walking Dead.

[Mythra]

So, when you're talking to a christian, and they say - oh the dietary laws, and some of the other silly laws in the old testament no longer apply.  We are under a new covenant now.  We are under grace.  At that point, don't just roll your eyes and shrug.  CORNER THEM.

 

Either:  Their God was real, and HE dictated those laws in the old testament - laws like no eating shellfish, can't cut your sideburns,  a woman is unclean after her period, can't eat pork -    If God dictated those laws, what does that say about God?  Because there is no possible logical reason for a great many of those.  They are just nonsensical by anyone's standards.  If God dictated them, God is a goof.

 

Or - did the priesthood of that time make up those laws ON THEIR OWN and attribute them to God?  If so what else is in the bible that comes from the mind of man and is attributed to God?

 

One way or the other.  Is God a goofy deity with freaky ideas, or is the bible man made?  

[Sybaris]

So, when you're talking to a christian, and they say - oh the dietary laws, and some of the other silly laws in the old testament no longer apply.  We are under a new covenant now.  We are under grace.  At that point, don't just roll your eyes and shrug.  CORNER THEM.

 

Either:  Their God was real, and HE dictated those laws in the old testament - laws like no eating shellfish, can't cut your sideburns,  a woman is unclean after her period, can't eat pork -    If God dictated those laws, what does that say about God?  Because there is no possible logical reason for a great many of those.  They are just nonsensical by anyone's standards.  If God dictated them, God is a goof.

 

Or - did the priesthood of that time make up those laws ON THEIR OWN and attribute them to God?  If so what else is in the bible that comes from the mind of man and is attributed to God?

 

One way or the other.  Is God a goofy deity with freaky ideas, or is the bible man made?  

 

Yes you could do that but then they'll just whip some Almighty Caveats:

 

"God works in mysterious ways"

 

or

 

"We can't know the mind of God"

 

Also, in regards to OT and NT, laws, the myriad of denominations, and what Paul or Jesus allegedly said.......... when backed into a corner the escape I've usually heard is, "All that doesn't really matter if you just accept Jesus Christ as your savior"

[Mythra]

When they have to go there, you know you won.  

 

"God works in mysterious ways" is christianese for "I surrender, but I want to have the last word". 

[mymistake]

So, when you're talking to a christian, and they say - oh the dietary laws, and some of the other silly laws in the old testament no longer apply.  We are under a new covenant now.  We are under grace.  At that point, don't just roll your eyes and shrug.  CORNER THEM.

 

Either:  Their God was real, and HE dictated those laws in the old testament - laws like no eating shellfish, can't cut your sideburns,  a woman is unclean after her period, can't eat pork -    If God dictated those laws, what does that say about God?  Because there is no possible logical reason for a great many of those.  They are just nonsensical by anyone's standards.  If God dictated them, God is a goof.

 

Or - did the priesthood of that time make up those laws ON THEIR OWN and attribute them to God?  If so what else is in the bible that comes from the mind of man and is attributed to God?

 

One way or the other.  Is God a goofy deity with freaky ideas, or is the bible man made?  

 

 

If you are going to try that I would recommend you use paper and pen or a chalkboard.   My Christian family conveniently forgets any fact that doesn't fit their agenda.  And I don't even talk with them about theology.  Write the stuff down so they can't deny saying it ten seconds later.

[Castiel233]

The OT (and the whole) Bible is true or it is not true. If true, it is reasonable to assume it would conform to reality in all its points and that every single story could be attested and confirmed by non biblical sources.

 

If it is not true, then people are wasting their lives, literally trying to please a fictional character. Trying to tailor their existence and hopes on fairy tales.

 

Did a donkey see an invisible angel on a path and refuse to budge, did a dude live in a whale for three days, did it once rain bread, has a burning bush once chatted to man, were sticks transformed into living snakes........these things seem highly doubtful  

[Mythra]

.......these things seem highly doubtful  

You're being overly generous.  People who have never been infected by the religious mindset would consider such things laughably ludicrous and dismiss them outright without a second thought.

[Castiel233]

To add, in their magic face off with Moses, the Egyptians turned sticks into living snakes, so the Bible tells us, does that mean that their gods exist?

[Sybaris]

To add, in their magic face off with Moses, the Egyptians turned sticks into living snakes, so the Bible tells us, does that mean that their gods exist?

 

Exodus 20:3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before me"

 

I guess so

 

I think it all comes down to who had the more energetic PR machine

[RenaissanceWoman]

The OT (and the whole) Bible is true or it is not true. If true, it is reasonable to assume it would conform to reality in all its points and that every single story could be attested and confirmed by non biblical sources.

...

 

The incredible stories you mentioned (talking donkey, talking burning bush, etc.) were isolated incidents that happened in some barren place. I can see why there are no other non-biblical witnesses.

 

But what about the dead people of Jerusalem who came out of their graves after Jesus died on the cross, and went back to their homes to chat with their families? Now we have hundreds or thousands of witnesses! How is that not recorded anywhere?

 

Pontius Pilate and all those Romans were in Jerusalem, right? Wouldn't some Roman have written it down or mentioned it to someone in another region? Maybe called for military reinforcements or philosophy experts or something? I would think news like that would have traveled fast, even in those days.

 

But I suppose you could argue that if the Romans recorded it, that would be like them admitting that Jesus was indeed the son of god as the Jew disciples declared, so we can't have them admitting to that! So there's always a convenient answer to such questions.

 

And no literate Jew at the time would have thought to maybe interview a couple of these zombies and write stuff down? What did they experience while they were dead? Was it just darkness, or were they "somewhere"? Are you glad to be back in this violent world full of pain, death, human treachery, and occasional joy and pleasure, or do you wish you could have stayed dead? (Because... you know you're going to die again anyway, right? And it might not be pleasant, just saying.) Why do you think you were chosen to be raised again? Do you have words of wisdom? Did you meet angels or devils or god himself?

 

To me, there is just no way such an earth-shattering event could have taken place and not be mentioned anywhere else. No way.

[Mythra]

There is another event that cannot have happened.  Not because it was an impossibility like the parade of zombies.  But this event could not have happened and failed to have been recorded by Josephus in his Antiquities of the Jews.  Josephus had plenty to say about Herod the Great.  But nothing about this:

 

16When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

17Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: 18 “A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more.”

 

All the boys in Bethlehem 2 years and under slaughtered at the order of Herod the Great.   And Flavius Josephus had nothing to say about it.  Because it never happened. 

[♦ Fuego ♦]

There is another event that cannot have happened.  Not because it was an impossibility like the parade of zombies.  But this event could not have happened and failed to have been recorded by Josephus in his Antiquities of the Jews.  Josephus had plenty to say about Herod the Great.  But nothing about this:

 

16When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

17Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: 18 “A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more.”

 

All the boys in Bethlehem 2 years and under slaughtered at the order of Herod the Great.   And Flavius Josephus had nothing to say about it.  Because it never happened. 

 

And it's a lousy use of a prophecy, but useful for those that want it to all be true, or for those that couldn't read. If you look up the original, Rachel weeps for the children taken captive to another land. In the very next verse and several thereafter, she rejoices because they are returned to her (i.e., they aren't dead, so it can't apply to a slaughter). Jeremiah 31:15-

[Castiel233]

There is another event that cannot have happened.  Not because it was an impossibility like the parade of zombies.  But this event could not have happened and failed to have been recorded by Josephus in his Antiquities of the Jews.  Josephus had plenty to say about Herod the Great.  But nothing about this:

 

16When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

17Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: 18 “A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more.”

 

All the boys in Bethlehem 2 years and under slaughtered at the order of Herod the Great.   And Flavius Josephus had nothing to say about it.  Because it never happened. 

Christians may turn around and say that atheists will use any justification to deny the faith, they may say that The Bible is the only record that matters and it doesn't matter what Josephus recorded or not, only the Scriptures count.....

 

To this line of reasoning I hold the following, simple view. I have never seen god, nor heard him. Reading about him in a book is not and can never be a relationship with him . It is that simple. The Bible writers may have met god, may have been inspired by him, all that they wrote may be a true account of their real interaction with the supernatural....but we only have their word on it. Having never seen god, any god, it is reasonable to assume his non existence 

[Mythra]

Christians may turn around and say that atheists will use any justification to deny the faith, they may say that The Bible is the only record that matters and it doesn't matter what Josephus recorded or not, only the Scriptures count.....

Yeah, you're right. Christians always have a comeback for anything. It's just another item among hundreds in the bible that doesn't add up. But you still might give them pause for thought. (That is, if they even know who Josephus is. ) You never know which blow of the sledge hammer is the one that might crack the foundation.

 

OTOH, as non-believers we don't get bonus points for gaining converts.