What Makes Deconversion Easy Vs Hard?

[directionless]

It's interesting that people experience deconversion differently:

- Some simply decide religion is B.S. and that is that. This seems to be especially common when the person is around 10 years old and just beginning to question things.

- Some like me take a lifetime to become gradually skeptical and never decide

- Some have the fear of hell that is hard to overcome

- Some have family and friends that make it difficult

- Some have OCD or bipolar

- Some have different interpretations (liberal, fundamentalist, ritualistic,...)

 

Anything I overlooked?

[mymistake]

For me the big thing was not attending church anymore.  It's so hard to go and then try to not laugh.  Somehow I am the bad guy because everyone else says stupid crap?  No thanks.

 

Anyway once my believing family stopped attending church so much there was noticeably less indoctrination in their minds.  Get it so there is no pastor or priest telling them what to think and they will be left only with their own thoughts which quickly mellow out.

[Mythra]

Just my 2 cents; if it's not applicable,  feel free to shred it. 

 

religion is a malady that resides in the mind.  It must be replaced with something else that you purposefully imbed into your mind. And I would think this would have to at least help, in the case of OCD or bipolar too. 

 

Hard to leave it behind:  just saying religion is nonsense, because it's not working for you - without investigating the evidence of why it's nonsense. Then, when old emotions or fears come creeping back it, you're not equipped to combat them with anything.

 

Easy to leave it behind:  Put some work into it. Make the effort to educate yourself. "Put on the whole armor of evidence"  Then, when an old emotion or fear comes back your mind is able to dismiss it, because you have logical reasons and factual evidence to support the dismissal of it. 

 

If you want resources, just ask us.  Let us know what it is that keeps creeping back in.  Lots of us can point you towards websites or pages or books to reason your way out of the religious mindset. 

[Mythra]

Education is the key.  Lots of people grow up devoutly religious, even to the point where they want to join the ministry.  Then after they get to college and start really studying it, end up as non-believers because they learned all of the things that their church forgot to mention.  

[directionless]

Thanks, @Mythra

I have read some books about the origins of Judaism and early Christianity that were helpful.

 

I don't have schizophrenia, but I have something milder that comes and goes. Like I bought some groceries on Saturday at one of those herbal health stores. Then Sunday, I couldn't eat the stuff I bought, because I developed a delusional concern that somebody had cast magic spells on my groceries. Monday (today) that delusion is gone. This seems to happen several times per month. A more common example is that I feel bad in the morning, and I begin to think that somebody on the internet is draining my energy magically. Or I suspect that people on the internet might be clairvoyantly spying on me. I always know these thoughts are irrational, but it doesn't make them go away. The thing that makes the delusions go away is sleep and exercise. A person on a psychological forum with similar problems said that he/she avoids people who talk about flim-flam that might trigger these delusions (e.g. spells, paranormal, etc.) I have decided to try that advice by avoiding forums with those types of people.

 

Anyway, yesterday I found myself thinking: maybe I would be better off as a Christian? I guess I was realizing that Christian or non-Christian doesn't seem to change the delusions very much. A very rational person could be a Christian and not really believe any of it. A delusional person could be an atheist and believe all kinds of stupid things. IDK. One improvement that came from leaving Christianity was constantly looking for God's guidance in the tea leaves. I was so stressed over each and every little choice I made when I was religious. Now I am better in that way. ... just random musings I guess.

[RogueScholar]

Anecdotally, there were several issues that made deconversion a long and sometimes difficult process. Unfortunately, these issues were not well founded upon a rational basis and as such, were by their nature difficult to reconcile. This is an aspect of "faith" based cognitive patterns that people simply cannot overlook. When conclusions, beliefs and actions are not derived from a place of rational and logical thinking, they will be exceptionally difficult to deal with using said rational and logical arguments.

 

Some issues that I had to grapple with included the following:

 

1. My personal sense of "right and wrong:" Starting out in the military and health care, I unfortunately had many difficult experiences where seemingly "unfair and wrong" situations would happen to people. The personal anguish that would result from seeing, frankly, horrible things was much easier to pacify when I believed some cosmic intelligence would "make everything right" in the end.

 

2. Indoctrination: We simply cannot discount the powerful effects indoctrination can have on beliefs and actions when it occurs during young and informative years where kids are biologically predisposed to accept what adults have to say. This can produce powerful and tenacious beliefs that carry on into adulthood.

 

3. Existential Angst: Let us be honest, most folks are keenly aware of the tenuous and seemingly limited nature of human existence. Continuing to be honest, we also must accept that most of us have a well developed sense of self preservation. This means many of us are not particularly keen on the whole death concept. The promise of transcending death is a powerful way of combating this angst, particularly when combined with the appropriate indoctrination at the appropriate age that acts as a way of cementing what would otherwise be seen as absurd if such ideas were presented to an adult who had no prior exposure to such illogical and irrational ideas. Even now, I struggle to really think about how unimportant my existence is to the universe and how temporary my existence is. I just completed a glorious mountain biking trek through some of the most remote and beautiful wilderness that I have ever seen over the weekend and the thought that these incredible experiences with such profound impacts upon my life are ultimately fleeting and absent of any purpose, aside from that which I assign is distressing. Of course, the counter argument that their tenuous nature is what make them so precious to me is powerful, but difficult to see when you do not believe in the impermanence of human existence.

[Mythra]

That's tough having to deal with those kinds of ups and downs.  I agree that "flim-flam" might not be the best way to go.  Anything that hypothesizes that there are invisible, silent beings or forces out there cannot be good for someone struggling with mental issues.  When I was deep in the fundy muck, I was borderline myself.    

 

Have you done some studying about the mind/brain and how it works?  Amateur (one of the ex-c's here) turned me on to a book that I'm reading now.  Although I'm only half way through it, I would already say it's worth a look, because it ties in brain science / anthropology / archaeology with religion.  "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind".  Julian Jaynes.  It's an understandable read, even for someone with a pea-brain like me. 

[Mythra]

Another book about the mind/brain that I've read in the past and can recommend:

 

Phantoms in the Brain, Probing the Mysteries of the Human Mind,  by V.S. Ramachandran

[directionless]

3. Existential Angst:

That is an important one. I suspect it is more important when people are disappointed with what they have in the present and the expected future of physical existence?

[directionless]

Another book about the mind/brain that I've read in the past and can recommend:

 

Phantoms in the Brain, Probing the Mysteries of the Human Mind,  by V.S. Ramachandran

I will bookmark those. Oddly reading about UFOs makes me feel better. I don't understand why that would be unless it is simply that I have read so many of these books that they are familiar territory. LOL

[Guest Furball]

Another book about the mind/brain that I've read in the past and can recommend:

 

Phantoms in the Brain, Probing the Mysteries of the Human Mind,  by V.S. Ramachandran

I just read a great book called "why we believe in god(s): a concise guide to the science of faith." Although I am fully deconverted, it put the final nail in the coffin of christianity/religion/god(s). Using factual neuroscience proofs, brain scans, and brain experiments/research done over years and years, the book completely from beginning to end proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that religion, any god, and especially christianity and its god is literally all in the person's head. They found that just as a child looks to his or her parents to be their comforter, provider, and salvation, so too does this brain process work exactly the same in adults who look to god(s). As a child reaches up for daddy to pick him up and care for him, so too does the church goer whether in the pew or in prayer at home lift their hands up into the air wanting sky daddy to pick them up and care for them. Just as a child finds comfort in physical kin - father, mother, brother, sister, and someone to protect them, religion creates the same experience for the adult - god is the father, the church is the mother, your fellow believers are your brothers and sisters, and then you have someone in the religion like a jesus who is the protector. As a child trusts a parent to protect them from all evil and troubles in life, so too does this carry over into adulthood where the adult needs a god to protect them from all evil and troubles in life. The book has a lot more to say, but I am just using some basic examples. 

 

                

[directionless]

Thanks, @Alien That is a funny similarity between the child and the religious adults raising their hands.

 

I suppose that people who need this feeling of a parent and siblings the most might also be the people who have the most difficulty deconverting. This would hold true in my case.

[hereticzero]

Unfortunately, there is no wrong or correct way to deconvert. The person deconverting makes the process easy or hard on themselves because of what they have been taught since becoming a Christian. I struggled with it for over 45 years, I even started my own ministry before I deconverted as I had not come to the point where I no longer believed but rather I thought I was not following the 'Real Jesus™' and teaching the 'Real Scriptural Doctrine of Truth™'. To be short, there are no 'real' anything in Christianity. Everyone who leaves the cult has to come to that conclusion for themselves. It depends a lot on how long one has been in the cult, how much the person was involved in their church--Sunday School teacher, deacon, pastor, whatever, and if they were getting paid for their services. Those who make money are seldom going to walk away. 

[dichotomy]

Answering first before I read everyone else's comments sorry...

 

Things that made deconversion hard:

 

1) I'd invested so much of my life and energy (physical, mental, emotional) into Christianity that the idea that it may not be true was awful as that meant I'd wasted all those years.

 

2) I had a shit dad and desperately clung to the concept of a loving father in heaven.

 

3) this worldview was all I'd ever known and it gave me a clear security and purpose and direction for my life in this world.

 

4) all my family, friends and community were Christians.

 

Things that made it easy:

 

1) the ridiculousness that is church. It has so many flaws, so much authoritative Bullshit that it made me angry and challenge things and start down the path of questioning why we did and believed what we did.

 

2) biblical inconsistencies, well just bible study and theology in general pulls itself a part when you look at it closely.

 

3) the fact my husband was also deconverting

[miamia]

Yeah what made it hard for me was the fear of hell, the end of the world, etc. Really terrible and horrible for many years. Not being able to "Know" Once I was in a comfortable place without stress and negativity it was a whole lot easier to look at things objectively,my amygdala not being the most used part of my brain anymore. Once my surroundings were peaceful, it resolved itself. But I'm sure for others it is different. There are some people who love the idea of going to heaven and having a father figure, and it's not about fear for them. Their personality may fit the construct better than mine did. But in the context of christianity, I had so many damnable personality traits that it was never a religion of inner peace for me the way it is for some people. I couldn't think and question and be curious. I couldn't be impulsive and act on instinct. I couldn't have pride. I'm prideful ok.  I don't like it when my talents and accomplishments are credited to the glory of someone else. So in that sense, deconversion was inevitable. Uncomfortable, long process though.

[florduh]

I agree that subjecting yourself to weekly, bi-weekly or even tri-weekly indoctrination sessions is the biggest problem. I know my dad was at church every time the doors were open, went to the retreats, camp meetings and revivals. He maintained a book and video library that was exclusively religious. A rational thought couldn't enter his mind if it wanted to, and that's the way he liked it. Decisions and life itself are simple if there's always someone telling you what to do or think.

 

Once the average person is removed from being immersed in propaganda they can't help but start to observe and think. It's hard to leave religion when your family is caught up in the insanity. It's hard to leave if the religion feeds some mental dysfunction. It's hard to leave just because of inertia. Stronger personalities who are naturally logical probably have an easier exit. Education and intelligence help too.

[dichotomy]

I agree that subjecting yourself to weekly, bi-weekly or even tri-weekly indoctrination sessions is the biggest problem. I know my dad was at church every time the doors were open, went to the retreats, camp meetings and revivals. He maintained a book and video library that was exclusively religious. A rational thought couldn't enter his mind if it wanted to, and that's the way he liked it. Decisions and life itself are simple if there's always someone telling you what to do or think.

 

Once the average person is removed from being immersed in propaganda they can't help but start to observe and think. It's hard to leave religion when your family is caught up in the insanity. It's hard to leave if the religion feeds some mental dysfunction. It's hard to leave just because of inertia. Stronger personalities who are naturally logical probably have an easier exit. Education and intelligence help too.

 

Yes I imagine this is spot on for many. 

[directionless]

Unfortunately, there is no wrong or correct way to deconvert. The person deconverting makes the process easy or hard on themselves because of what they have been taught since becoming a Christian. I struggled with it for over 45 years, I even started my own ministry before I deconverted as I had not come to the point where I no longer believed but rather I thought I was not following the 'Real Jesus™' and teaching the 'Real Scriptural Doctrine of Truth™'. To be short, there are no 'real' anything in Christianity. Everyone who leaves the cult has to come to that conclusion for themselves. It depends a lot on how long one has been in the cult, how much the person was involved in their church--Sunday School teacher, deacon, pastor, whatever, and if they were getting paid for their services. Those who make money are seldom going to walk away.

It is interesting that so many ex-Christians were very involved and devoted when they were Christians. I was never more than a pew-warmer, but it was still an adventure LOL

[directionless]

Answering first before I read everyone else's comments sorry...

 

Things that made deconversion hard:

 

1) I'd invested so much of my life and energy (physical, mental, emotional) into Christianity that the idea that it may not be true was awful as that meant I'd wasted all those years.

 

2) I had a shit dad and desperately clung to the concept of a loving father in heaven.

 

3) this worldview was all I'd ever known and it gave me a clear security and purpose and direction for my life in this world.

 

4) all my family, friends and community were Christians.

 

Things that made it easy:

 

1) the ridiculousness that is church. It has so many flaws, so much authoritative Bullshit that it made me angry and challenge things and start down the path of questioning why we did and believed what we did.

 

2) biblical inconsistencies, well just bible study and theology in general pulls itself a part when you look at it closely.

 

3) the fact my husband was also deconverting

Your observation about your dad is similar to the theories described by @Alien in post #11.

[directionless]

Yeah what made it hard for me was the fear of hell, the end of the world, etc. Really terrible and horrible for many years. Not being able to "Know" Once I was in a comfortable place without stress and negativity it was a whole lot easier to look at things objectively,my amygdala not being the most used part of my brain anymore. Once my surroundings were peaceful, it resolved itself. But I'm sure for others it is different. There are some people who love the idea of going to heaven and having a father figure, and it's not about fear for them. Their personality may fit the construct better than mine did. But in the context of christianity, I had so many damnable personality traits that it was never a religion of inner peace for me the way it is for some people. I couldn't think and question and be curious. I couldn't be impulsive and act on instinct. I couldn't have pride. I'm prideful ok.  I don't like it when my talents and accomplishments are credited to the glory of someone else. So in that sense, deconversion was inevitable. Uncomfortable, long process though.

Hell seems to be a big one. I had some fear of hell even though my church was not a fire and brimstone type.

[directionless]

I agree that subjecting yourself to weekly, bi-weekly or even tri-weekly indoctrination sessions is the biggest problem. I know my dad was at church every time the doors were open, went to the retreats, camp meetings and revivals. He maintained a book and video library that was exclusively religious. A rational thought couldn't enter his mind if it wanted to, and that's the way he liked it. Decisions and life itself are simple if there's always someone telling you what to do or think.

 

Once the average person is removed from being immersed in propaganda they can't help but start to observe and think. It's hard to leave religion when your family is caught up in the insanity. It's hard to leave if the religion feeds some mental dysfunction. It's hard to leave just because of inertia. Stronger personalities who are naturally logical probably have an easier exit. Education and intelligence help too.

I agree with those points. I had never thought about the difference of strong personalities versus weak personalities, but that is true. A person with confidence in their own reasoning has less difficulty.

[directionless]

Want to make it easy...try having fun.  Go out and do something taboo.  Get drunk, get laid, just don't get yourself hurt.

I'm too old to have fun now. If only I had figured some of these things out when I was in my 20s or 30s LOL. My fun now is to lean back in my recliner with my cat on my lap and a UFO book in my hand. I usually get 2 or 3 pages before I doze off

[Blindsighted]

My deconversion was easy. But I think the groundwork for it had been being laid for years. Taking god out of the picture gave my mind so much rest.

 

A few other things too. No parents. No daily contact with extended family. To busy to be friends with people at church. Adult children experiencing the same thing, therefore someone to talk to. Access to a library for studying new views. A husband who loves me, and not just because i had been Christian.

 

I think it would have been harder had my circumstances been different.

[hereticzero]

 

I was raised in the cult of the Southern Baptist, family was heavily involved for MANY generations. I know many who would leave but they feel they need to believe in something other than themselves or they think they cannot give their children a moral role model to follow other than what religion provides. Many church members are pathetic in their understanding of themselves. They hopelessly follow the church doctrine we are born in sin and are doomed without Jesus, no matter what they believe about the religion. They have no faith in themselves.

 

[directionless]

My deconversion was easy. But I think the groundwork for it had been being laid for years. Taking god out of the picture gave my mind so much rest.

 

A few other things too. No parents. No daily contact with extended family. To busy to be friends with people at church. Adult children experiencing the same thing, therefore someone to talk to. Access to a library for studying new views. A husband who loves me, and not just because i had been Christian.

 

I think it would have been harder had my circumstances been different.

You probably have a strong personality too? (That's how it sounds to me anyway.) That probably helps also.