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Goodbye Jesus

Why Do I Pretend?


directionless

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I keep pretending to believe. I don't know why. Nothing terrible would happen if people thought I did not believe, but I feel panic whenever anybody suspects. Everybody knows I never go to church, and I don't preach to anybody, but I don't want them to know that I sometimes don't consider myself a Christian. ... strange. I guess I feel ashamed.

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Keep talking. Work through it

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Keep talking. Work through it

LOL, I always keep talking. wink.png

 

I was talking to an acquaintance who is a Christian. Several times, Christianity came-up in the conversation, and I nodded my head in agreement as though I still believe as I once did. I found myself wishing that I really still believed. Maybe I want to belong to something - even if its simply a shared belief? Maybe I miss knowing what is right and wrong? I never attended church, and I almost never read my Bible, but I thought God was watching out for me - even if I had no evidence. I still think that even though I call myself an atheist. I don't know if it is habit or actual belief. Maybe belief is simply habit instead of a position we reach through deductive reasoning or science?

 

Another thing is that I enjoy watching PureFlix Christian movies. I think those movies target my age and small town origins. Maybe I'm just having a mid-life crisis. I'll be 50 next year. Life sucks, but I no longer have any aspirations for anything better.

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Wanting to not get a lecture... My life is too ingrained in the ministry and church that any opposition to their beliefs would bombard me from all sides, and my husband too.

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I was talking to an acquaintance who is a Christian. Several times, Christianity came-up in the conversation, and I nodded my head in agreement as though I still believe as I once did. I found myself wishing that I really still believed. Maybe I want to belong to something - even if its simply a shared belief? Maybe I miss knowing what is right and wrong? I never attended church, and I almost never read my Bible, but I thought God was watching out for me - even if I had no evidence. I still think that even though I call myself an atheist. I don't know if it is habit or actual belief. Maybe belief is simply habit instead of a position we reach through deductive reasoning or science?

 

Another thing is that I enjoy watching PureFlix Christian movies. I think those movies target my age and small town origins. Maybe I'm just having a mid-life crisis. I'll be 50 next year. Life sucks, but I no longer have any aspirations for anything better.

 

Welcome to severe cognitive dissonance.  One way or the other, you will resolve it.  

 

But the universe is indifferent whether you go back to christianity or decide to follow reason and things that are real.  In the end, it has no effect on anything other than the quality of your life for the remainder of your life.

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I stopped believing long before I told my friends and family. I never actually lied about it, I just didn't mention that I no longer believed. This meant that there was a fairly long period where I could point out "apparent" contradictions and problems with belief and be taken seriously as an "insider". It led to some really interesting discussions. As long as they thought I still believed, they were willing to listen to my critiques of various aspects of Christianity, and see where the discussion went. As far as they were concerned, I was just playing devil's advocate. But as soon as I told them I didn't believe anymore it was like I became the actual devil. Now such discussions are fruitless, because I'm just an atheist whose mind is closed.

 

If you're not sure what you believe, that's ok. If you know what you believe and don't want to share it, that's also ok. If you do want to tell people what you believe, that's ok too. Do whatever makes you happy.

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I was talking to an acquaintance who is a Christian. Several times, Christianity came-up in the conversation, and I nodded my head in agreement as though I still believe as I once did. I found myself wishing that I really still believed. Maybe I want to belong to something - even if its simply a shared belief? Maybe I miss knowing what is right and wrong? I never attended church, and I almost never read my Bible, but I thought God was watching out for me - even if I had no evidence. I still think that even though I call myself an atheist. I don't know if it is habit or actual belief. Maybe belief is simply habit instead of a position we reach through deductive reasoning or science?

 

Another thing is that I enjoy watching PureFlix Christian movies. I think those movies target my age and small town origins. Maybe I'm just having a mid-life crisis. I'll be 50 next year. Life sucks, but I no longer have any aspirations for anything better.

 

Welcome to severe cognitive dissonance. 

 

 

Directionless, I was also going to welcome you to the cursed world of cognitive dissonance as Mythra has mentioned. I was petrified of being rejected by people if they knew the truth about how I felt about christianity. I have been rejected by many old friends I had and it bothered me at first but then it showed me who they really were and I came to the conclusion that I did not want these type of judgemental people in my life anyway...

 

I personally went through the worst time (midlife also) trying to figure out what my world view would be? I have dabbled in new age for a long time trying to grasp on to anything that might make sense to me but because of the fact that none of them in the new age movement can answer my very hard question about suffering, I became a full atheist. I just simply do not believe in any type of magic anymore. That's not a bad thing because leaving new age was like leaving christianity and it allowed me very slowly to form my own opinions and 'click' one more thing off my list that was causing me confusion. That doesn't mean to say that some of the new age teachings are bad because most of them are about 'positive thinking' and I like that part of it. Positive thinking can help one find solutions to their problems.

 

You of course can decide on your own.... but it takes time and investigation to come to a conclusion. It will need to feel comfortable, make sense to you and and settle nicely in your own heart and mind. Learning a new 'world view' about what you believe and what you think is right or wrong takes time.  Once I admitted to myself who I actually was ( a complete non-believer) I could start my new life. I believe in evolution now. It has not been that fun becoming an atheist for me ( I have admitted that on this board)  because I love magic so much. So for now, in my own life, I will continue to be as kind as I can to everyone, enjoy the earth and some of it's beauty and do what needs to be done everyday to create a 'somewhat' successful life. I don't have any type of 'purpose' anymore except to learn to be happy with what I have.

 

We are here for you my friend. Keep posting, reading and investigating. Take up a new hobby to keep your mind off of all the questions. To question things 24 hours a day is to drive yourself crazy. Do something really nice for yourself today. I came to this conclusion....I might as well be as happy as I can, for the short time we have in this trip called life. I hope you can do the same.

 

 Big ((hug))

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We are here for you my friend. Keep posting, reading and investigating. Take up a new hobby to keep your mind off of all the questions. To question things 24 hours a day is to drive yourself crazy. Do something really nice for yourself today. I came to this conclusion....I might as well be as happy as I can, for the short time we have in this trip called life. I hope you can do the same.

 

 Big ((hug))

 

This is really great advice.  Dwelling on things is not always the best activity when faced with an emotional and intellectual dilemma.  Sometimes if you just give it a rest and get out and Do Something, it does you more good than anything else. 

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Maybe I miss knowing what is right and wrong?

 

The religious only think they know what is right and wrong; as often as not, they get it backwards. You don't need religion to know that harming others is wrong. And, you don't need a religion to give you arbitrary rules about things of no consequence, such as not using the lord's name in vain and other such nonsense.

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Maybe I miss knowing what is right and wrong?

 

 

The religious only think they know what is right and wrong; as often as not, they get it backwards. You don't need religion to know that harming others is wrong. And, you don't need a religion to give you arbitrary rules about things of no consequence, such as not using the lord's name in vain and other such nonsense.

Agreed. It seems to me that right and wrong boil down to the "golden rule": Do to others what you would like them to do to you. Do not do to others what you would not like them to do to you. You don't need a "god" to tell you that.

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Wanting to not get a lecture... My life is too ingrained in the ministry and church that any opposition to their beliefs would bombard me from all sides, and my husband too.

That seems like a sensible position to take in your case. The only person who would really care about my lack of belief would be my mother. She is about 70, and I usually spend Sunday afternoon with her.

 

But my pretending seems to be motivated by something else. Maybe its nostalgia. I miss the 80s and the 90s. I feel sad to see Christianity decaying from a majority religion to a fringe religion. I feel sad to see the US decaying. LOL I'm a retro person. I like watching documentaries about life in the 30s and 40s. Sometimes I think I was born several decades to late.

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I stopped believing long before I told my friends and family. I never actually lied about it, I just didn't mention that I no longer believed.

Yes, that's how it is for me. I don't actually lie, but I don't try to correct anybody when they assume I am still a believer. I don't like confronting people about anything. Sometimes people will make comments that I disagree with, but I usually overlook them. The comments can be anything - politics, ethnic stereotypes, etc.

 

So it wouldn't be natural for me to say "oh, by the way, I decided Christianity isn't true, so I'm an atheist now." I'm just not a confident, assertive person that could do that. Also I often find myself believing in Christianity even though I know many reasons that I should not believe. So calling myself an atheist isn't fully accurate.

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Directionless, I was also going to welcome you to the cursed world of cognitive dissonance as Mythra has mentioned. I was petrified of being rejected by people if they knew the truth about how I felt about christianity. I have been rejected by many old friends I had and it bothered me at first but then it showed me who they really were and I came to the conclusion that I did not want these type of judgemental people in my life anyway...

 

I personally went through the worst time (midlife also) trying to figure out what my world view would be? I have dabbled in new age for a long time trying to grasp on to anything that might make sense to me but because of the fact that none of them in the new age movement can answer my very hard question about suffering, I became a full atheist. I just simply do not believe in any type of magic anymore. That's not a bad thing because leaving new age was like leaving christianity and it allowed me very slowly to form my own opinions and 'click' one more thing off my list that was causing me confusion. That doesn't mean to say that some of the new age teachings are bad because most of them are about 'positive thinking' and I like that part of it. Positive thinking can help one find solutions to their problems.

 

You of course can decide on your own.... but it takes time and investigation to come to a conclusion. It will need to feel comfortable, make sense to you and and settle nicely in your own heart and mind. Learning a new 'world view' about what you believe and what you think is right or wrong takes time.  Once I admitted to myself who I actually was ( a complete non-believer) I could start my new life. I believe in evolution now. It has not been that fun becoming an atheist for me ( I have admitted that on this board)  because I love magic so much. So for now, in my own life, I will continue to be as kind as I can to everyone, enjoy the earth and some of it's beauty and do what needs to be done everyday to create a 'somewhat' successful life. I don't have any type of 'purpose' anymore except to learn to be happy with what I have.

 

We are here for you my friend. Keep posting, reading and investigating. Take up a new hobby to keep your mind off of all the questions. To question things 24 hours a day is to drive yourself crazy. Do something really nice for yourself today. I came to this conclusion....I might as well be as happy as I can, for the short time we have in this trip called life. I hope you can do the same.

 

 Big ((hug))

Thanks, Margee smile.png I think the mid-life crisis is part of this too. I remember 15 years ago when songs I remembered from college started appearing on "oldies" radio stations. That was the beginning, and it has been getting worse. I feel like a dinosaur now at 49. I was always a weirdo, but now I'm an old-fashioned weirdo who can't use a smart phone LOL. I miss rotary phones, vinyl records, etc. Christianity is part of those memories. I was never very religious, but still I miss when Christianity could be assumed.
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We are here for you my friend. Keep posting, reading and investigating. Take up a new hobby to keep your mind off of all the questions. To question things 24 hours a day is to drive yourself crazy. Do something really nice for yourself today. I came to this conclusion....I might as well be as happy as I can, for the short time we have in this trip called life. I hope you can do the same.

 

 Big ((hug))

 

This is really great advice.  Dwelling on things is not always the best activity when faced with an emotional and intellectual dilemma.  Sometimes if you just give it a rest and get out and Do Something, it does you more good than anything else.

 

Thanks, that is true. I have noticed that depression makes a difference in my whole outlook. This has been a hard week for me, because I had to work extra hard and didn't get very much sleep. I also didn't have time to exercise, and that causes depression. So that affects me.

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Maybe I miss knowing what is right and wrong?

 

The religious only think they know what is right and wrong; as often as not, they get it backwards. You don't need religion to know that harming others is wrong. And, you don't need a religion to give you arbitrary rules about things of no consequence, such as not using the lord's name in vain and other such nonsense.

 

It seems to me that the "golden rule" assumes our goal should be to maximize the collective good.

 

There is also the "what goes around comes around" rule. This is slightly different. It assumes that our goal is to maximize our personal good, but it recognizes that what we do to other people sometimes comes back to us.

 

Then there is the "middle path" from Buddhism.

 

Psychopaths might have their own unique way of looking at good and evil.

 

Fascists might say the good of the state should be maximized.

 

Maybe I'm making it too complicated, but it doesn't seem obvious to me.

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Maybe I miss knowing what is right and wrong?

 

The religious only think they know what is right and wrong; as often as not, they get it backwards. You don't need religion to know that harming others is wrong. And, you don't need a religion to give you arbitrary rules about things of no consequence, such as not using the lord's name in vain and other such nonsense.

 

Agreed. It seems to me that right and wrong boil down to the "golden rule": Do to others what you would like them to do to you. Do not do to others what you would not like them to do to you. You don't need a "god" to tell you that.

 

IDK, nothing is obvious to me. Sometimes I think in circles LOL

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Maybe I miss knowing what is right and wrong?

 

The religious only think they know what is right and wrong; as often as not, they get it backwards. You don't need religion to know that harming others is wrong. And, you don't need a religion to give you arbitrary rules about things of no consequence, such as not using the lord's name in vain and other such nonsense.

 

It seems to me that the "golden rule" assumes our goal should be to maximize the collective good.

 

There is also the "what goes around comes around" rule. This is slightly different. It assumes that our goal is to maximize our personal good, but it recognizes that what we do to other people sometimes comes back to us.

 

Then there is the "middle path" from Buddhism.

 

Psychopaths might have their own unique way of looking at good and evil.

 

Fascists might say the good of the state should be maximized.

 

Maybe I'm making it too complicated, but it doesn't seem obvious to me.

 

 

I'm not really concerned about all the different versions of rules. For me, morality is more simple. It's wrong to unnecessarily harm others. It's not just for the common good, it's for self preservation. If I don't want my neighbor to steal my chickens and rape my daughter, I sure as shit better not do it to him either.

 

If you want, you can complicate this with Kant's categorical imperative or Rousseau's general will, but it's unnecessary to do so for most people IMO.

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I'm not really concerned about all the different versions of rules. For me, morality is more simple. It's wrong to unnecessarily harm others. It's not just for the common good, it's for self preservation. If I don't want my neighbor to steal my chickens and rape my daughter, I sure as shit better not do it to him either.

 

If you want, you can complicate this with Kant's categorical imperative or Rousseau's general will, but it's unnecessary to do so for most people IMO.

Thanks, @Vigile , I had not heard of Kant's categorical imperative, so I skimmed a little. That is interesting. I didn't understand how he reached the conclusions he reached, but I'm sure it goes deeper than what I read in Wikipedia.

 

Without Christianity, people like me don't know what to do with ourselves. I look at little old ladies and wonder if I should mug them instead of opening the door for them - just kidding LOL

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Yeah, Kant isn't easy to understand. I only have a Philosophy 101 understanding of him myself. He's a bit too strict for my taste. He basically argues if you get back a penny too much from the cashier, you'd better march your way back into the store and make things right as you ask yourself 'would I that the world were based on theft?'

 

I personally think there's more wiggle room and that we don't all have to live like monks to be good people.

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Yeah, Kant isn't easy to understand. I only have a Philosophy 101 understanding of him myself. He's a bit too strict for my taste. He basically argues if you get back a penny too much from the cashier, you'd better march your way back into the store and make things right as you ask yourself 'would I that the world were based on theft?'

 

I personally think there's more wiggle room and that we don't all have to live like monks to be good people.

Yeah, I wish I knew more about philosophy. In the past I was always put off by the specialized vocabulary. It's only been in the last couple of years that I realized philosophy might be interesting to me. "Philosophy for Dummies" is on my to-do-list, but so are lots of other things. *sigh*
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Yeah, Kant isn't easy to understand. I only have a Philosophy 101 understanding of him myself. He's a bit too strict for my taste. He basically argues if you get back a penny too much from the cashier, you'd better march your way back into the store and make things right as you ask yourself 'would I that the world were based on theft?'

 

I personally think there's more wiggle room and that we don't all have to live like monks to be good people.

We once found a 20 in front of a bar... I felt bad for keeping it, but if I were to go in the bar and said "who lost this 20?" I would not get an honest answer.

 

I have come to the conclusion that sometimes the ends justifies the means, like once we were out of food so we tried to get more food from a give a way by pretending to be from two different houses... But a Christian caught us and took away half our food, is it ever right to take food from the poor because of a rule? Though maybe if everyone did that they would not have enough for everyone... But they throw out lots of food...

 

This is my mind, forever seeing both side to the argument and not coming to a conclusion.

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We once found a 20 in front of a bar... I felt bad for keeping it, but if I were to go in the bar and said "who lost this 20?" I would not get an honest answer.

 

I have come to the conclusion that sometimes the ends justifies the means, like once we were out of food so we tried to get more food from a give a way by pretending to be from two different houses... But a Christian caught us and took away half our food, is it ever right to take food from the poor because of a rule? Though maybe if everyone did that they would not have enough for everyone... But they throw out lots of food...

 

This is my mind, forever seeing both side to the argument and not coming to a conclusion.

That's a dilemma. I suppose that Christian felt it was his/her job to be a good steward of the charity project and make sure it was distributed equally? But maybe they could have given your family the normal amount and offered to give you more if they had anything left at the end? (If Jesus had been there, then he would have made sure that everybody got enough - plus several baskets leftover at the end. wink.png ) I have always been fortunate that I have enough money, but I'm sure it would be humbling to need charity. I hate to think that somebody made it even more embarrassing for your family when you needed charity. Like you said, arguments can be made both ways. I'm like you in that I can rarely make up my mind. LOL
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Lately I've been wondering if there is some way I could be a Christian so that I would not be pretending. I don't like being deceptive. I've been imagining going to one of those churches like I see on Christian TV and trying to be a Christian in spite of not believing intellectually. It's very odd, because I was raised in a liturgical style church, but I've been imagining going to a fundamentalist church and how much fun it would be to go to Bible studies and try to rationalize things and be around all those earnest Christian people... very strange. Probably it is feeling so isolated in life that motivates these odd thoughts.

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Yeah, Kant isn't easy to understand. I only have a Philosophy 101 understanding of him myself. He's a bit too strict for my taste. He basically argues if you get back a penny too much from the cashier, you'd better march your way back into the store and make things right as you ask yourself 'would I that the world were based on theft?'

 

I personally think there's more wiggle room and that we don't all have to live like monks to be good people.

Yeah, I wish I knew more about philosophy. In the past I was always put off by the specialized vocabulary. It's only been in the last couple of years that I realized philosophy might be interesting to me. "Philosophy for Dummies" is on my to-do-list, but so are lots of other things. *sigh*

 

 

Read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It's a fantastic book and gives real world application and example of philosophy.

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Lately I've been wondering if there is some way I could be a Christian so that I would not be pretending. I don't like being deceptive. I've been imagining going to one of those churches like I see on Christian TV and trying to be a Christian in spite of not believing intellectually. It's very odd, because I was raised in a liturgical style church, but I've been imagining going to a fundamentalist church and how much fun it would be to go to Bible studies and try to rationalize things and be around all those earnest Christian people... very strange. Probably it is feeling so isolated in life that motivates these odd thoughts.

 

I do this a lot too. I often wonder if I should just pull up my big boy pants and push aside all my doubts. Go to a good christian university, shake off my lgbt identity, marry a good man, go into the mission field. I see all my christian friends getting married and it is so foreign but at the same time it makes me want something that simple. I even consider it heavily sometimes, how much nicer it would be not to have to pretend and just be it naturally.

 

I think... it's mainly wanting to find comfort in familiarity. But I found when I was put back into that kind of society after being out of the church for a while, even if I was choosing it, it was only comforting to an extent. It might be different for you, but I think eventually things that pushed you away from the church will just pile up again.

 

I'm sorry you feel isolated. It's a horrible, horrible feeling. I hope you're able to find people to surround yourself with who speak in the voices you need to hear.

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