Struggles I Face As A Gay Ex-Mennonite

[zadachve]

First, let me say how glad I am to have found this group. In the 7 years following my departure from organized religion I have often desperately wanted even just ONE person I could have an open, honest conversation about this. This group is the closest thing to that so far! Thank you!

 

Here is my story:

 

I grew up pretty strict Mennonite. We were allowed cars (as long as they were very dark colors) and electricity. The women had to wear bonnets and had to make their own dresses specific to the rulebook.

 

I won’t go into endless detail; I’ll just get to why I am here today. When I was 20 my desire grew strongly for something more than the follow-the-rules-and-you’ll-get-to-heaven approach that the Mennonites love. I began looking around and soon found a different church called The Bible Missionary Church. They stemmed from old-fashioned Methodism, extremely Wesleyan in theology and still very strict by any standards but for me it was like complete freedom! My zeal for God and Christianity grew by leaps and bounds in this church and I attended Bible College in preparation for a life in the ministry. I loved God. I loved that church. I figured I was about as happy as could be expected. I was engaged to be married to the bishop’s beautiful daughter. She and I had a singing ministry together that was wonderful. I still consider those to be among the BEST days of my life. Aside from the fact that my family was deeply hurt and saddened by my departure from “the faith” I had no doubts that my faith had only been deepened and I was very happy.

 

There was just one little problem, however. I’m gay. I’ve known this since the age of 4. No one knew for the longest time because I shoved it far, far into the darkest, filthiest corner of the proverbial closet of hidden homosexuality. I vowed that should anyone ever find out I would kill myself.

 

That was then.

 

Even though this was a more ‘liberal’ church for me, there was still no Internet access permitted. But one day I was housesitting for friends who were not a part of this church and, or course, like all normal people, they had the Internet.

 

Enter gay pornography.

 

It wasn’t an addiction (sadly I didn’t house-sit long enough for that! Lol), it was just me discovering for the first time, that there was gay pornography. It was a revelation. A pretty awesome revelation! Haha!  It was also a revelation (not so awesome) to my pastor! Turns out these people had a tracker on their computer and when they came home they saw what I’d been looking at and promptly informed my pastor. Being the sensitive soul that I am, I confessed to it when he called and asked me about it. It’s funny however, as ‘horrible’ a sin as homosexuality is, according to them, they tried everything possible to just sweep this under the rug and pretend everything was great. I, on the other hand, was just so fucking tired of hiding and pretending to be straight so this came as a kind of relief. Finally I could talk to someone about my struggle.

 

Not so easily.

 

I begged my pastor to call me once in a while and check up on me. I suddenly WANTED to talk about this. I lived alone and I wanted accountability to help me because I knew the tenacity of this “demon” and I knew there was no way I was overcoming this alone. Now that this had finally come to light (even though only he and his wife knew about it) it was NEVER spoken of again. They instead, encouraged me to marry, of course. As we know, marriage solves all problems! (touch of sarcasm)

 

There are obviously a great many more details in all this but that is the basic summary of the story. During this time I had met a young man at Bible College (no, not a lover) who loved to question things. We would talk for hours about the ‘church’ and what that really means. Does it mean an organized group of people that get to dictate every move in your life or is it more about people serving God and loving each other etc, etc, etc…. As the questions grew and multiplied, my ‘popularity’ started its inevitable decline. As I’m sure a group like this is well aware, to ask questions like these in a place like this is not viewed favorably.

 

Without going into more details suffice it to say that I broke up with my then-fiance and left. Let the roller coaster begin.

 

That brings me to now. On the one hand, I love life outside of the restrictions of ‘church’. It’s a freedom that I could not easily give up again!

 

On the other hand, and here lies the reason for this posting. How do you guys deal with the fear of death and hell?!

I’ve read many of your posts and can understand why you would cease to believe in God as described in the Bible, the OT in particular. But I feel like I (just like you) am in an IMPOSSIBLE situation here. Allow me to explain.
 

On one hand, I would love to just ‘let go’ and allow myself to enjoy life without the constant dread of eternal punishment but, if I begin to think that way, all I can remember is the verse that got POUNDED into my head in my younger years about those “apostates” who leave the truth. “ …but if that light in you is darkness, how great is that darkness.” Matt. 6:23 KJV as well as a great many other warning aimed at those who dare to transgress the law of God. So, if I let go and just begin to love and live my life without fear of an afterlife or God’s wrath and judgment, according to scripture, I am giving in to complete and full deception.

 

On the other hand, I can keep going like I am and can indeed continue to look forward to spending an eternity (a very, very long time) in a “lake that burneth with fire and brimstone.” Rev. 21:8 KJV

 

I must say, either option ends up similarly so I suppose I should just let go and realize if I am going to hell anyway I might as well enjoy the ride. But I HATE that attitude. I am a deeply spiritual person. I believe in stronger powers whatever they may be called. I feel a deep connection to that power still. Not an overriding urge to convert people or join some group that wants to control me but simply a ‘knowledge’ that there is a force in the universe that is guiding my life down it’s intended path. It’s just that I can never really forget hell and the constant ‘WHAT IF I’M WRONG!’

 

When I was a kid I remember my dad playing a cassette tape of the dramatized story of a man who dies and goes to hell. It was terrifying and to this day I can hear the man’s screams as the angels pick him up and throw him down a black hole full of demons and flames and other screaming souls. He never stops falling shrieking and howling for eternity, while the scorching flames sizzle his flesh (somehow he stays alive for all eternity). He “gnashes his teeth” and implores God to save him. But God cannot, or apparently will not, hear him much less lift a finger to save him. I know it sounds so fucked up but, as I am sure most of you can relate, this was my reality. Stay in “the church” i.e.: Mennonite, and you will not have to go to hell! Yay us! It was a damn good thing I was born into the only right religion on earth! So “blessed”!  Disclaimer: I do not hold ill will toward my parents for this. They did what they thought was right and raised their family the best they could. I love them.

 

So that brings me to the present. Let me say that I have a full life. I have always loved music and singing and now I get to do that as well as writing and acting (currently working on creating a webseries) aside from working to pay my bills. J But I simply CANNOT shake this fear. It’s always there in the back of my mind. It visits me the dark solitude of night, it comes to me, although less dreadfully, in the light of day. Sometimes I literally just sit alone and cry and wonder how the fuck did I fuck up my life so badly. I had everything. If I had stayed I would be pastoring my own church by now, doing what always came so naturally to me, ministering to others. Going to heaven, the place where all rainbows and fluffy Care-Bears go. This might sound crazy to you but it’s real to me.

Instead, I now live in the big city (Toronto, Canada) as a homosexual man having discovered the calming qualities of marijuana, the energy boost of alcohol and best of all, sex. Not to worry, none of these things claim my consummate allegiance. Thankfully, being raised as strictly as I was and also being aware of the destructive tendencies of these substances, I am able to remain in control. So far anyway! I have enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, the fulfillment of writing, the soul-encompassing rush of musical performances. I have been swayed by the almost-fearful audacity of acting, and loved it. I am continuing to learn to love myself in spite of myself. My worldview is one of peace and the continued hope for mankind to simply love one another.

 

I know there isn’t a person alive that could come to me and reassure me unequivocally that hell is fake or that the Bible or God or Jesus are myths of history. I know in the end it’s my decision to believe what I will. I foolishly wish it wasn’t this way. Most days I wish my head would just explode and let out all the millions of contradictory thoughts and feelings and I could be left in peace. I suppose the best I can hope for is that Christianity is wrong and in the end we all return to dust like the animals. BTW how the fuck did animals get so lucky? Ever since I can remember I have wished I was an animal. Being a person is too hard.

 

But I digress!

 

If I still have an audience here, thank you for reading. It just feels good to be able to share and know that you guys understand!

 

So that’s my story! Any positive, constructive comments are welcome. We are all in this together and for that I am most thankful.

 

Love and peace.

[mymistake]

Welcome to ex-C, zadachve.  If you don't mind me saying so it sounds like you have a very bad case of brainwashing.  Why would there be a hell, a heaven or even an afterlife?  Of course your parents raised you to believe in those things but why would they be real?  I use to believe in stuff like that and the beliefs made me miserable.

[VacuumFlux]

Hello, and welcome to the forums!

 

The fear of hell wasn't a big issue for me; what I had more of a problem with was morals and ethics. My biggest frustration inside the church was that I was told that the church provided a coherent framework for understanding life, and that god's rules were set up to give humans the best life possible. And so I tried to look for the Big Ideas behind the rules, to make sense of it all... but it just felt so random. I thought other people "got it" and I didn't, and didn't know what was wrong with me. So when I deconverted I realized that I had a big gaping chasm is my mind/soul/whatever - I'd always started every ethical consideration with God's (Supposed) Rules and then tried to justify them, but I had never just started with reality and worked on ethics. I had no idea where to start, had no concept of what "good" even meant. Luckily I had some atheist friends who'd worked out their ethical system years before, so we discussed and argued about it a lot. Even though I never did agree with them on everything, it at least gave me a idea of how to think about things on my own.

So... the fear of hell that you have. If it's anything like my experiences, the hard part is trying to look at the world As It Is, without any of the religious presuppositions on it. I'd been taught that "the heart is deceitful above all things" which, the way it was used, was a very damaging idea. I didn't trust any of my impressions of reality - I was supposed to listen to "God" instead. Except... if you can't trust your own judgement, how do you know if those thoughts are from God or not? How do you know that the humans in authority at the church telling you what they think god says - how can you ever know that they're not deceived? Everything I'd been taught was the plain, obvious Word of God was all just some particular humans' interpretation. So much for jesus being the rock to hold on to in the storms of life. There was no anchor, no truth, no certainty about anything once I started to really think about what I'd been taught. So I had to start just... being aware of sensory impressions, assuring myself that those things were real data points. I had to practice that for a while, seeing that things I saw and touched and heard were real, before I got up the nerve to try anything similar with my thoughts and feelings. Only once I had practiced believing myself was I able to address some of the fears that had been placed into me by a christian upbringing; I was able to hold on to the questions like "how can god be good if he'd permit, or even enjoy, torturing people for eternity?" even when the other voices in my head started screaming at with all the platitudes I was supposed to believe, such as the recent meme about "the real question is why anyone would choose hell over a loving god" - Christians think that's a compelling argument, but I disagree with the premise that the god they are advocating for is loving. But it took me a long time to get to the point were I could believe that I had any right or ability to question the things I'd been told to believe. You seem to have a decent start at that; you sound like you have an identity outside of christianity, you have things about yourself that you know to be true, you have things in life that make you happy that you know are good.

 

Don't be so hard on yourself about beliefs being a choice. You were brainwashed, you had ideas shoved into your mind when you were young and vulnerable by people you trusted. And since you knew you were gay that young, you were probably extra desperate for approval and fitting in to help hide the things you thought you needed to be ashamed of. (I had some sexual stuff, which I didn't realize was sexual at the time, that terrified me when I was growing up. I was convinced that if anyone found out I would be cut off from all human society for the rest of my life, that I was inherently unlovable and that if I ever made the mistake of getting close enough to someone to think it was safe to tell them, that I'd loose them.)

I definitely get the feeling that it would be easier if you could have just played along for the rest of your life. You did loose something important to you, one potential path in life and the associated relationships with your parents and ex. You ought to grieve that, and work through it (NOT get over it like it's unimportant) just like if someone close to you had died. It's ok to grieve losses, even when the other option that you chose turns out to be kinda fun too. You can't always have everything in life, and learning to deal with that fact is a skill that you can practice and improve.

 

Anyway, I just wrote a lot more than I meant to. Welcome to the forums, and I wish you well as you find your way through your future.

[Eugene39]

Hi Zadachve. I was raised in a church doctrinally equivalent to the Bible Missionary church and I totally get the fear of hell that you have. What helped me was studying into the origins of hell. And time. It takes time to gradually get your mind reprogrammed.

 

Welcome to the forums.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Most of us discovered that it takes time, time away from the influences of the indoctrination. The mind will slowly bring up the things that it is pondering and deciding, and this means facing those fears over and over while confronting them with truth. One of my final dealings was facing a childhood fear in a very creative dream that my subconscious presented to me. In the dream I could either try to pray to Jesus out of fear, or face my fear on my own and talk to it. I realized that the devil I long feared was really me and my own powerful desires. The church takes our natural sexual lusts and turns those into "bad" and "sin", when they are simply wired into us by nature. Since no one can escape lust, the church then programs followers to see normality as twisted and evil and sells Jesus as a cure (doesn't work - even pastors wank off, sleep around, etc).

 

But purging the old rigidity takes time. I still dream about being in the house where I grew up. Haven't been there for decades, but that is how the mind sees home. Similarly, it saw the world as controlled by invisible demons and angels, and it has taken me about 8 years to stop dreaming about things my subconscious emotions had been trained to see as important to survival.

 

Cut yourself some slack and realize that it will take time. You are who you are, and purging the lies (while still seeing the value in the good times you had) will take a while.

[eXcelInferno]

Welcome, Zadachve!

 

I guess my biggest thing that helped me out of my fear of hell was the realization that God didn't actually love me. It was a heart-wrenching realization, but I think it was what really kept me from the lingering fear of hell that a lot of people have gone through. I had begun to unmistakeably live in "sin," and I realized that if I kept on doing that, God wasn't going to ever forgive me. If God can't ever forgive me, how can he love me? Even my very religious parents still love and forgive me despite my "rebellion." If my parents are more forgiving than God, what does that say about God? That was when I decided that if God exists, he is not the God prescribed by the Bible and variations of it. That helped me deduce that if they got God wrong, why couldn't they have gotten hell wrong too?

 

You say you still believe in a higher power. I get the impression that this higher power is not the same God that you were subjected to as a child. Maybe the belief that people and the Bible got God all wrong can help convince you that maybe they got hell wrong too. I hope it helps you out.

 

Best wishes!

eXcel

[Mythra]

Hi zadachve. Welcome to ex-c. We all had a fear of hell when we escaped the religious mindset. It's one of the last things to evaporate under the bright hot sun of reason and learning. But it does go away, given enough time. Most of us will attest to that.

[Mythra]

I recognized early in my decon that fear of hell was always there in the back of my mind too. And I just made a conscious decision one day to say "fuck this!". I just decided that I was no longer going to live in fear. I refused to be held hostage anymore. If it turned out that God were real, and hell was real, God was going to have to wait until after I was dead to terrorize me. Sounds ridiculous, but it worked.

 

That was over 10 years ago. Hell is a silly little superstition to me now, and sometimes I'm amused by how I used to be so afraid of it.

 

It was learning, on a variety of different fronts, that extinguished the flames permanently for me.

[Mythra]

Sometimes I literally just sit alone and cry and wonder how the fuck did I fuck up my life so badly. I had everything. If I had stayed I would be pastoring my own church by now, doing what always came so naturally to me, ministering to others. Going to heaven, the place where all rainbows and fluffy Care-Bears go. This might sound crazy to you but it’s real to me.

Ehh - judging by the rest of your post, I think you can discard this as a path that would have made you happy. But you can still minister to others without doing it for the sake of the Gospel.

[Mythra]

Ever since I can remember I have wished I was an animal.

Oh, but you are, zadachve. A little bigger brain than the others, but an animal to be sure.

[Blindsighted]

Welcome to ex-c. I'm glad you have escaped and are living a full life. It's very freeing. Eugene39 suggested studying up on the origins of hell. That's an excellent idea. How it developed will open your eyes to the fact that it didn't always exist.

[Mythra]

I know there isn’t a person alive that could come to me and reassure me unequivocally that hell is fake or that the Bible or God or Jesus are myths of history. I know in the end it’s my decision to believe what I will.

Love and peace.

Ok, so let's look at this from a little different angle to perhaps give you a little different perspective. Rather than us just telling you hell doesn't exist, you tell us why we should be afraid. Make me afraid of hell again.

 

I have been a fundamental christian for a good part of my life, so I know the literal interpretations of the bible and I'm quite familiar with the old and new testaments from a literal believer standpoint. But in the past 10 years I have also studied quite a bit about higher criticism of biblical texts, and I'm pretty good at seeing through them and comprehending the motivations and historical contexts surrounding them. So quoting scripture will not have any chance to instill fear in me.

 

So, we come to the soul. Tell me what a soul is. Explain how "soul" is not the same as "mind". Show me how both of those concepts cannot be functions of an active brain. Convince me that I have a soul. Convince me that my soul will exist for all eternity in a nice place (heaven) or a not-so-nice place (hell). Tell me why I need not be afraid of Egyptian hell. Or Greek hell. Or Muslim hell. Or Zoroastrian hell. It's only christian hell that I need to be concerned about.

 

Help me to unlearn what I know about evolution and the scientific explanations for the origins of the universe.

 

So let's start here. If you can get through this list, I'll give you a second list you can get started on to instill the fear of hell back in me.

 

Catch my drift?

[Mythra]

Oh, and as a little personal aside: my son is gay. And in a same-sex marriage. He has never been religious (unlike me) and is unencumbered by that particular brain infection. My son is a great person and I love him. And I have no fear of hell for him either.

[Margee]

Oh, and as a little personal aside: my son is gay. And in a same-sex marriage. He has never been religious (unlike me) and is unencumbered by that particular brain infection. My son is a great person and I love him. And I have no fear of hell for him either.

Me too Mythra!! My son is gay and I adore the ground he walks on!! I'll be proud to stand with him if he ever finds a partner and marries!!

[Mythra]

Nice, Margee. We have a lot in common. Plus I like your hugs.

 

Our sons are among the lucky ones. I feel really bad for people who have to face condemnation from their families simply for the "crime" of being true to themselves.

[Margee]

Welcome to ex-C, zadachve! Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. My heart just bleeds as I read the stories from you wonderful people. You just stay here with us hon and we'll help you with anything that we can! It's a bit of a bumpy ride forming a new world view, (took me 5 years) but the people on this site are always here to encourage you in any way we can!! I'm so glad you joined this site. Stay calm....breatheeeee...You're going to be OK. It just takes a little time.

 

((hug))

[Mythra]

So, if you want to get rid of the fear of hell, there are two things you need to do. IMOSHO.

1. Figure out what evidence is.
This sounds condescending, but it's not meant to be. Most people, if they haven't studied science or law, they really are in the dark here. One thing evidence is most definitely not, is someone's first person account (of anything). Like Richard Feynman's First Principle: you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.

2. Follow the evidence wherever it leads you.

[knightcore]

zadachve, I really relate to a lot of your story. Mennonites are stricter than missionaries but I think they both get the point of hell across very very clearly. I think that the fact that you're continuing onward with your life, a really full life where you're enjoying everything you can, is encouraging and a testament to how far you've come. Everyone has doubts and fears. You're conquering yours already.

 

I don't know if it will help you, but one thing the pastor at my parents church loved to talk most about is how hell was separation from god. I have a lot of anger towards him, so for me that was... almost a blessing. I feel that a lot of the bible takes a lot of poetic license with its descriptions. And if we are going with the idea of "man can never fully comprehend god/heaven/hell" then that makes sense. I feel like the hellfire and brimstone is a lot of poetic license. And that for a Christian who has fully devoted their life to Christ, separation from god would be that tortuous. But for someone who doesn't like him in the first place, like me, or someone who simply views him as a force, like you, it's not quite that dramatic.

 

I'd encourage you to think back on what might have been exaggerated in your past. I know it's really ingrained (I really know, trust me), but sometimes after a while of picking at it something gives and makes sense.

 

I really hope you're able to find peace so you can live your life as happily as you can. And I hope that this forum is helpful to you.

[yunea]

First I was like, "if God is there at all, he has seen the hell I went through when I honestly tried to find him, and I'll see if he really thinks it just to punish me". That was to survive the beginning of deconversion.

 

Then, later, I got more honest with myself about what the Bible is and what it is not, and realised that there's so much wrong with it, how could it get hell right either?

[whitehot]

Hey, thanks for telling your story!

 

For me, the fear of hell began to fade as soon as I realised what the stakes were. I could live my life following the rules and when I die be raised to life and avoid hell. OR I could live my life while I'm alive to the absolute fullest so that when I die it doesn't matter what happens to me, I will die having LIVED and even if hell awaits, I have no regrets. The choice was simple: live before I die, or live after. The latter is not a guarantee. It seemed safer to choose the one I'm in control of.

 

I don't know if that helps you, but there it is. All the best!

[whitehot]

First I was like, "if God is there at all, he has seen the hell I went through when I honestly tried to find him, and I'll see if he really thinks it just to punish me".

Omg ME TOO! I was like, SURELY it's not right to punish someone who fought so hard to love you and hold onto you!

[Burny]

Welcome to ex-c! Thanks for sharing your story. Very moving and as a former Dutch Calvinist I understand where you come from.

 

As far as Hell and the fear of Hell is concerned, many here have already stated what I found to be absolutely true. Time heals all wounds, including the wounds of indoctrination and fear. This includes the fear of the boogie man and hell.

 

One thing that helped me get over my fear was the very same thing that deconverted me in the first place. Studying the origins of hell and realizing that the Jews never had a "Hell" at all! Another question that helped was asking why I was so afraid of one particular version of Hell (the one I'd been taught) when there's so many other versions I could fear! (Different xtians, Muslim, Aztec, Viking...)

 

I then quickly realized that I wasn't scared of a necessarily real place, but rather a fairy tale. That seemed silly, so I quit believing it.

[zadachve]

Hello, and welcome to the forums!

 

The fear of hell wasn't a big issue for me; what I had more of a problem with was morals and ethics. My biggest frustration inside the church was that I was told that the church provided a coherent framework for understanding life, and that god's rules were set up to give humans the best life possible. And so I tried to look for the Big Ideas behind the rules, to make sense of it all... but it just felt so random. I thought other people "got it" and I didn't, and didn't know what was wrong with me. So when I deconverted I realized that I had a big gaping chasm is my mind/soul/whatever - I'd always started every ethical consideration with God's (Supposed) Rules and then tried to justify them, but I had never just started with reality and worked on ethics. I had no idea where to start, had no concept of what "good" even meant. Luckily I had some atheist friends who'd worked out their ethical system years before, so we discussed and argued about it a lot. Even though I never did agree with them on everything, it at least gave me a idea of how to think about things on my own.

 

So... the fear of hell that you have. If it's anything like my experiences, the hard part is trying to look at the world As It Is, without any of the religious presuppositions on it. I'd been taught that "the heart is deceitful above all things" which, the way it was used, was a very damaging idea. I didn't trust any of my impressions of reality - I was supposed to listen to "God" instead. Except... if you can't trust your own judgement, how do you know if those thoughts are from God or not? How do you know that the humans in authority at the church telling you what they think god says - how can you ever know that they're not deceived? Everything I'd been taught was the plain, obvious Word of God was all just some particular humans' interpretation. So much for jesus being the rock to hold on to in the storms of life. There was no anchor, no truth, no certainty about anything once I started to really think about what I'd been taught. So I had to start just... being aware of sensory impressions, assuring myself that those things were real data points. I had to practice that for a while, seeing that things I saw and touched and heard were real, before I got up the nerve to try anything similar with my thoughts and feelings. Only once I had practiced believing myself was I able to address some of the fears that had been placed into me by a christian upbringing; I was able to hold on to the questions like "how can god be good if he'd permit, or even enjoy, torturing people for eternity?" even when the other voices in my head started screaming at with all the platitudes I was supposed to believe, such as the recent meme about "the real question is why anyone would choose hell over a loving god" - Christians think that's a compelling argument, but I disagree with the premise that the god they are advocating for is loving. But it took me a long time to get to the point were I could believe that I had any right or ability to question the things I'd been told to believe. You seem to have a decent start at that; you sound like you have an identity outside of christianity, you have things about yourself that you know to be true, you have things in life that make you happy that you know are good.

 

Don't be so hard on yourself about beliefs being a choice. You were brainwashed, you had ideas shoved into your mind when you were young and vulnerable by people you trusted. And since you knew you were gay that young, you were probably extra desperate for approval and fitting in to help hide the things you thought you needed to be ashamed of. (I had some sexual stuff, which I didn't realize was sexual at the time, that terrified me when I was growing up. I was convinced that if anyone found out I would be cut off from all human society for the rest of my life, that I was inherently unlovable and that if I ever made the mistake of getting close enough to someone to think it was safe to tell them, that I'd loose them.)

 

I definitely get the feeling that it would be easier if you could have just played along for the rest of your life. You did loose something important to you, one potential path in life and the associated relationships with your parents and ex. You ought to grieve that, and work through it (NOT get over it like it's unimportant) just like if someone close to you had died. It's ok to grieve losses, even when the other option that you chose turns out to be kinda fun too. You can't always have everything in life, and learning to deal with that fact is a skill that you can practice and improve.

 

Anyway, I just wrote a lot more than I meant to. Welcome to the forums, and I wish you well as you find your way through your future.

Wow thank you so much! I honestly didn't even know anyone had replied to my post here. I assumed I would get email notification and just now I logged in to find so many replies. Thank you for your kind and wise words! It means a lot to have a support group!

[zadachve]

Welcome to ex-C, zadachve! Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. My heart just bleeds as I read the stories from you wonderful people. You just stay here with us hon and we'll help you with anything that we can! It's a bit of a bumpy ride forming a new world view, (took me 5 years) but the people on this site are always here to encourage you in any way we can!! I'm so glad you joined this site. Stay calm....breatheeeee...You're going to be OK. It just takes a little time.

 

((hug))

Aww thank you!! I feel better knowing there are others like me out there:) HUGS!

[zadachve]

 

I know there isn’t a person alive that could come to me and reassure me unequivocally that hell is fake or that the Bible or God or Jesus are myths of history. I know in the end it’s my decision to believe what I will.

Love and peace.

Ok, so let's look at this from a little different angle to perhaps give you a little different perspective. Rather than us just telling you hell doesn't exist, you tell us why we should be afraid. Make me afraid of hell again.

 

I have been a fundamental christian for a good part of my life, so I know the literal interpretations of the bible and I'm quite familiar with the old and new testaments from a literal believer standpoint. But in the past 10 years I have also studied quite a bit about higher criticism of biblical texts, and I'm pretty good at seeing through them and comprehending the motivations and historical contexts surrounding them. So quoting scripture will not have any chance to instill fear in me.

 

So, we come to the soul. Tell me what a soul is. Explain how "soul" is not the same as "mind". Show me how both of those concepts cannot be functions of an active brain. Convince me that I have a soul. Convince me that my soul will exist for all eternity in a nice place (heaven) or a not-so-nice place (hell). Tell me why I need not be afraid of Egyptian hell. Or Greek hell. Or Muslim hell. Or Zoroastrian hell. It's only christian hell that I need to be concerned about.

 

Help me to unlearn what I know about evolution and the scientific explanations for the origins of the universe.

 

So let's start here. If you can get through this list, I'll give you a second list you can get started on to instill the fear of hell back in me.

 

Catch my drift?

 

oh i definitely catch your drift:) thank you for that perspective, methinks you are wise:)