Jump to content
Goodbye Jesus

Trying To Save My Marriage - 1 Year Later


Insightful

Recommended Posts

She's probably afraid. You're probably right. I think maybe you should just start being you around her. Don't be down trodden or needy. Live like her view of you isn't important. If you can. I know it is, but she has too much power over you right now. If her behavior is causing you to be sad and depressed then she'll assume you're sad and depressed because you left god, not because she's treating you poorly. Her perspective is validated. So if you can possibly muster attitude that shows you are happy and positive despite her and without god, it might help her lower her guard and start being more natural acting toward you. Just a thought.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I second blindsighted's suggestion. For your own health and state of mind, you need to be yourself. If you want to go for a bike ride, invite her with a smile. If she declines, say ok, see you later and go. Have fun on your own, but make sure she is always invited. I agree that the more you mope and look stressed, the more she can say that this is what happens when you leave God. The happier and more fulfilled you appear to be, the more you put the lie to all the "doom and gloom" she's heard that apostates live with. That alone may cause her to question her faith.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm trying hard right now to fight for this marriage.  The emotional pain is intense. 

 

My question for you all:

 

I recently asked my wife if she could try to be encouraging - to say affirming things, to be more appreciative of me as a person.  She said that she cannot affirm anything about me completely because my unbelief taints all of my actions.

 

What I wonder - and I'd love your feedback - is if AFFIRMING ME is actually frightening for her because that would mean admitting that there can be goodness apart from religious belief?  Essentially, to affirm me - and to allow me close to her emotionally - both of those steps would mean making herself vulnerable to questioning her faith.  Does this make sense?  In other words, if she were to view me positively and allow herself to have warm feelings again toward me, she would have to be sympathetic to my unbelief - and that is not a place she wants to go.

 

Her feelings toward me seem irrational - she can be fun and funny and happy with me, like all is good.  But when it comes to intimacy, love, and encouragement - she is so distant.  The irrationality of it makes me suspect that fear is underlying it all.

 

I'm walking around every day with this anxious feeling in the pit of my stomach - in constant pain from the muscle tension the stress is causing....

 

I feel like I must choose between

 

1) staying and seeing my personal happiness die

2) leaving and seeing the death of my family.

 

It realy stinks.

 

I know it's not really as extreme as that - that's just how it feels a lot of the time.  I know there are ways to stay and find happiness elsewhere or leave and still  love my kiddos.  It's just messy and ugly.... and it hurts!

 

 

 

My wife flipped out when she first figured out that I was an atheist.  It was ugly.  But over time as she noticed that I was the same person I had always been she warmed up to me.  While she still wishes that I was religious she basically accepts me now.  I can't say if that is going to work with you or not.  Really it depends on your wife.  But it is not going to get better while it is an open wound.  I would recommend that you stop talking about it so much and focus on your relationship.  If she want to bring up religion give her an excuse such as "let's not talk about it because I accept you the way you are".  See if being a good husband will bring her around.  Don't try to deconvert her or anything.

 

This has a low chance of success but it is another option.  If your wife is too stubborn for her imaginary friend you will have to move on.  I do wish you the best of luck.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me say this, as the unbeliever still married to the believer. I deconverted fully two years ago, and I went public with it three months later. My husband had a hard time for a few months, but then things got much, much better. I won't go so far as to say that he's "over it", but we really don't ever talk about it. He affirms me in all kinds of stuff on a daily basis, and he never... not ONCE... said or acted like there would now be a problem in terms of intimacy. 

 

What I'm trying to say is that your wife has had MORE than enough time to process this and move on, and also I am saying that her reaction is BEYOND extreme. Which leads me to the question: Was your marriage happy before your deconversion?

 

You could try the suggestions above (trying to win her back with kindness, etc.) But my feeling is that it will not work. Before my current husband, I was married to a drug addict/emotional abuser, and I used to say the same things to myself (I'll win him with love, kindness, etc.) It never happened. He never changed, and I don't think your wife is apt to, either. I say this not to be unkind, but because I see my old self in the questions that you are asking. 

 

Honestly, I doubt that she treats any other non-believer in her life as crappy. Does she have non-believing family members? Co-workers? Neighbors? Does she go around to them with a glum face and tell them that she cannot validate or affirm anything good about them? I doubt it. So no, I don't think it's a fear. I think it's her being rude, childish, manipulative, and abusive.

 

I know it hurts. My heart is hurting for you as I type this, because I have been there. But this is NOT about you. I want to read a post from you in a few years from now, where you're in a relationship that makes you unbelievably happy. Life's too short for spouses that treat us like shit.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No offense, but LOTS of manipulation going on with all she has said. I have a feeling she was this way, prior to your deconversion. You might not have noticed it that much though, because you were fitting into a role she liked back then. People usually just don't start using language like she did, out of the blue, over one incident. Leaving faith shouldn't turn an otherwise healthy relationship on its ear. If you choose to stay in this, I hope you choose to not walk on eggshells for the rest of your life. I'm engaged, and returned to Christianity, but believe wholeheartedly that people shouldn't lose who they are, just to 'save' a marriage. You have to be true to you. I understand you love your wife, but she needs to love you for you. Or I can't see this marriage bringing you happiness. Or her. Wishing you the best of luck as you figure it all out! (hugs)

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Insightful,

I'd like to add another perspective, one or two thoughts that I had while reading your story:

- In a relationship, love needs to be mutual, otherwise one or both partners get hurt. You have to watch out for your emotional and physical health. Otherwise, you'll be unhappy and might get sick which is neither good for you nor for your kids. They need you. And they need you to be healthy and happy so you're able to be the best dad you can be.

- Staying in this marriage might be worse for your kids than ending it. Sure, a break up is difficult for kids. But staying together might be even worse and set a wrong example for them. I know someone who would have grown up much happier had their parents split up twenty years before they finally did.

All the best for you, I really do hope that you will find a solution that will make your family happy in the long term.

Offtheroad

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

P.S. I'll keep on reading, we're here for you!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I threw the Hail Mary pass.  We'll see what happens.

 

What I mean:  I presented "part one" of my reasons for doubting Christianity.  I focused on the legendary development of the gospel - the birth narrative legends / contradictions, the growing deity of Jesus across the gospels, and the discrepancies with the resurrection narratives.

 

I know a couple of you said not to do this - I get why you advised that.  Your wisdom is valid.  Here's why I did it anyway:

 

Her repeated statements that I can NEVER be her soulmate or ever make her happy or be ever attractive to her - because of my unbelief.  Even if I were the best possible non-Christian husband, I would never be those things to her.  These statements - and the resulting way she thinks about me and treats me - forced my hand to defend my position.  I couldn't imagine her feeling that way about me forever.  Despite my hopes to the contrary, I believe her that no amount of me "being a good husband" would ever win her affirmation, regard, admiration, and affection.  And without that, how could I ever stay in this marriage???

 

So, I figured that my options were:

1) Accept that she would never admire/affirm/regard/desire me - which means probably leaving her as I can't imagine surviving like that

2) Defend my beliefs in hopes to gain her understanding of the merits of my position.  I don't need her to agree with me, but to have understanding and respect for WHY I believe what I do.

 

Since I really despise living with minimal love/regard/affirmation/admiration AND since the last thing I want to do is leave her and my girls, all that was left was option 2. 

 

I really tried hard to DEFEND my beliefs rather than persuade her to deconvert.

 

She listened quietly.

 

She looked at all the passages with me.

 

After 1 hr, I asked if I should keep talking?  She said, "No, we're done for the night."  That was it.  She went up to bed and here I am now, trying to keep myself in one piece.

 

My suspicion is that it probably won't work.  I think she'll be more "done" with me - now that she sees the depth of thought, reason, and research that has gone into my worldview.  Rather than consider that I may have valid points, she will just confirm to herself that my faith is a lost cause - and, by implication, so is our marriage.

 

All I can do now is hope that something I said registered.  That she could see that there are very sound, intelligent, logical reasons to doubt.  That someone can doubt for those good reasons and still be a really great husband and father - worthy of love and respect just the same.

 

Oh please see that, sweet wife.

 

Our marriage hangs on it.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wish you the best.  Please keep us posted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

I am so sorry you have to go through this my friend. I just wanted to add my 2 cents here and it's not a fun 2 cents. I have become a bit of a 'stoic' over the years . All stoic means is looking at reality for what it truly is. As you plan all the strategies to save your marriage you must also make a plan in case none of it works. You need to prepare yourself for the worst. And the worst be be a marriage failure. And you must do this with a brave face and mind. If she doesn't come around and you decide to stay, you will always be her 'puppet on a string' and I personally would never allow my partner to call all the shots. You will walk on eggshells for the rest of your life and NEVER get what you really want from a relationship. You will become resentful.... and even if you stay, it won't be a happy relationship until she completely accepts the facts of who her husband really is and loves you regardless of what you believe. 

 

At this point (in the back of your mind) you can also make the best plan on how you could continue to be a fantastic father without living in the same house. If your wife continues to 'withhold' from you, you will end up being miserable. There is life with another partner. Relationships fail for many reasons including religious reasons. I do not mean to be hard-hearted but you need to look at every angle. Your life has changed. You are not the same person you were. You guys will either grow together or grow apart from this. These are such hard facts to face. I'm really hoping she will come around...but if not....you need to make a plan for new life for yourself. Unless you want to be a puppet on a string for the rest of your life. 

 

My dad did the best he could for my sister and I and he did not live with us from age 9. He died being my hero and I loved him very much. I give you the biggest hug in thew world today as you face this situation. My fingers are crossed for you.

 

((hug))

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope she at least sees your reasoning. For my husband, it seems at least, the Bible being so problematic opened his eyes.

 

We attend church all our lives being taught that a real apostle named Matthew wrote that gospel. When in fact it wasn't. What really angers me is that these pastors have learned all this in college and yet continue to misrepresent it to their congregations. They say things about Paul's fatherly advice to Timothy, when they themselves know that book is a forgery written centuries later.

 

Your wife has been lied to by many "men of god" the same way. Why? I have no idea why they keep the story going. To control the masses maybe? But if she can at least see that this "infallible" word of god is not so infallible then maybe she'll see you have valid reasons. I'm hoping for you both.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Her repeated statements that I can NEVER be her soulmate or ever make her happy or be ever attractive to her - because of my unbelief.  Even if I were the best possible non-Christian husband, I would never be those things to her."

 

But she hasn't walked out the door yet, right? It may be hard to sustain 'unhappiness' or 'repulsion' forever. It does take effort. Talk is cheap. The future is unpredictable. If unhappiness starts to become long and drawn out, then fix it.

 

"Soulmate" is a somewhat naive idea, imo. Sorry to see you in this predicament.

 

It's sad that not believing in an omni-absent omni-invisible, most probably non-existent being means someone won't love you anymore. That's indoctrination at its finest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hope she at least sees your reasoning. For my husband, it seems at least, the Bible being so problematic opened his eyes.

 

We attend church all our lives being taught that a real apostle named Matthew wrote that gospel. When in fact it wasn't. What really angers me is that these pastors have learned all this in college and yet continue to misrepresent it to their congregations. They say things about Paul's fatherly advice to Timothy, when they themselves know that book is a forgery written centuries later.

 

Your wife has been lied to by many "men of god" the same way. Why? I have no idea why they keep the story going. To control the masses maybe? But if she can at least see that this "infallible" word of god is not so infallible then maybe she'll see you have valid reasons. I'm hoping for you both.

 

 

$$$ is the reason. People are so gullible you could open up a college like

 

http://www.oru.edu/

 

and people would pour tons of money into it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, Insightful, that sounds like quite the conversation you had. Good for you! What has been happening since then? Is there any movement from her?

 

Have you met with an attorney to get your ducks in a row? It may be time to get advice on what to start documenting. There's no easy way to say this, but you need to start planning your escape from this abuse, while keeping your rights intact regarding the kids.

 

Please keep in mind that you need to be ahead of the game. If this progresses to splitting up, and the people at her church get wind of it, she is going to be bombarded with advice and encouragement to get all she can and screw you, you evil apostate (regarding the kids, the house, money, everything). Church people are quite wicked in that way. Be proactive.

 

As OTRR mentioned above, staying together for the kids can be very damaging. That is what my parents did, and 25 years later my siblings and I have very little to do with our parents. The hate, discord, discomfort, subtle treachery, manipulation, and flat out lack of love did not go unnoticed by us, even before we were teenagers. Margee mentioned walking on eggshells -- oh my, yes! Not just my parents, but us kids too. Every day, just wondering if it would be a good day, or if one of us would ignite the fuse for the day. I remember in high school, I was actually jealous of the kids whose parents were divorced!

 

My parents waited until we were out of high school to get divorced -- big mistake. By then, the anger and hatred had deepened to a frightening level. They have been divorced for about 25 years now and are both remarried, but we are still dealing with their hatred toward each other. My younger brother died last year, and my sister and I were faced with a whole new level of treachery from our parents against each other. It was shocking. (My brother was unmarried and had no will, so all of his assets went to surviving parents. Ugly situation.) That's why we mostly stay away (as my brother did too, while he was alive), and treat almost every interaction with either of them with kid gloves. We don't want to ignite a fuse again!

 

Others have pointed out that this is not going to get better for you, and will probably get much worse. I get that sense too. Please do not let this fester! Know your options, protect yourself, protect your kids.

 

It's so sad to hear you say that you love her, when she obviously does not love you. That's brutal.

 

I feel terrible for encouraging you to get the hell out of there and make your strong boundaries, since you still love her. You are in a bad spot, and it's easy for us to look in from the outside and tell you what to do. It's not so easy for you. I'm so sorry for that.

 

You have been given a lot to think about in these couple of pages so far. Your head is probably swimming! We care and want this to get better for you, whatever path that takes.

 

I'm sending you a big hug from 3000 miles away.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Insightful, every decision you make is 100% yours to choose.

 

I like your decision to discuss your atheism, and the way in which you discussed it.  I think you had a strong platform.

 

And I like what Renaissance Woman says above; as much as your situation is emotional, keep some things at a pragmatic level and be prepared with a lawyer and a way to keep your kids in your life in a way that makes you feel good about it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good post #41. 

 

Ren: I feel terrible for encouraging you to get the hell out of there and make your strong boundaries, since you still love her.
 
Staying together for the 'children's sake' is as bad as staying together because 'that's what God wants'. I loved my (then) wife but knew I could not take any more BS. So I left and divorced her. It all worked out. The ex found someone new to be miserable with, I found someone who is better and we get along great. Our child grew up and is doing well. Making that decision and the immediate aftermath of being single again sucked (for a short while). Glad I did it though.  
 
Divorce 'is' a good option, depending on the situation. Let your heart, logic, and common sense guide you.
 
Btw, after I was pretty unhappy in that first marriage, I stayed 8 more years before I was thoroughly ready to punch out of it. :)
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Again.  Thank you for the continued outpouring of support.  You guys are so empathetic.  it's amazing.

 

RenaissanceWom:  That was Mon night.  I wondered all night how things would be on Tues.  Surprisingly, she was really warm and relaxed and funny.  Totally caught me off guard.  I didn't know what to make of it.  Was it respect because I could back up my position with coherent reasons?  Last night, she was open to talking more, but said "it might blow things up worse, but maybe we have to do it...  or we can take an night off and watch an episode of Parenthood" (our favorite show together...).  We took the night off and watched the show.

 

Tonight, we picked back up with my Parts 2-4 of Reasons for Questioning/Doubting:  the late development of an afterlife/hell/judgement day/demons/satan and how those ideas seem  to have been borrowed from ancient Persian religion during the exile and incorporated into Judaism, ways the bible describes a different/superstitious reality than the one we experience (demons causing mental illness and sickness, bona fide miracles, prophetic dreams, etc), a presentation of the best biochemical evidence for common descent (she has a BS in biochemistry from an excellent school and I have a BS + MS in biochem from an excellent school =)), a list of all of the morally suspect divine commands / biblically sanctioned items (killing babies, capturing young women as spoils of war, giving virgin daughters to a mob of sex-crazed men, punishing the innocent for the crimes of others, etc), Jesus' promise to return in the lifetime of his hearers, and the fear-induced control that the doctrine of hell exerts.

 

Mid way through, as I was asking her to turn with me to passages about killing babies, she said that she had a problem with how it all was happening.  She said she had so much to say and felt frustrated that I wanted her to hold her responses until I completed my "opening argument" (2.5 hours over 2 days...).  She said she  didn't think it would be useful to keep going as everything i had said so far gave her a hopeless feeling about the future of our relationship.  She said "maybe you should just think your way and I'll think mine..."  But I know that would mean continued lack of respect for me...  She sort of apologized, saying "maybe I spoke too quickly, but that's just my raw emotion".  I appreciated that qualification.  I asked if she would allow me to go on.  She agreed, reluctantly, and then asked "Are you all done?"  I said yes.  I told her that I was anticipating (positively) a point by point response from her over the next few days.  I asked if that was still her intention.  She said "maybe."  And went to be.  No "good night".  But there wasn't a "goodnight" on Mon either.

 

It was a lot of information.  I feel like it was a pretty comprehensive case that, at minimum, should bring even a strong believer to admit that there is some really strong evidence against the Bible being 100% error free, divine revelation.  I could respect someone choosing to believe but at least admitting the worth of some of the arguments "against".  But I know, it's too emotional for a believer to admit the merits of reasonable doubt.

 

We'll see what tomorrow looks like...

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it sounds promising. At least she's letting you talk, and appears to be listening.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

Keep going slowly Insightful. You mentioned 'raw emotions' and this is so apparent now. This is not only about your marriage at this point, it may also lead her out of her own faith and that alone is one of the most frightening things in the world for some people. It certainly was for me. I thought I was going to die when I was losing my faith. I was never so scared in my whole life. She may be also hon. Be loving, be kind and go ever so slow. Let her lead so she doesn't feel pushed. You are on the right track. This honesty could lead to a brand new relationship.

 

I feel hope in the air for you guys. Keeping fingers crossed for the very best outcome!!

 

Happy New Year and best wishes!

 

((hug))

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Same as Margee and Blindsighted, I feel hopeful for you. It sounds like this was, perhaps, a really positive move.

 

It's not all going to be easy or anything, but it is, at least, promising.

 

I've been thinking of you and really hope that this is a step in the right direction.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm glad that she let you given her reasons why you don't believe anymore an have a long in depth conversation about, some believers won't do that. I hope things go well for you!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Insightful, reading through the outline of the things you raised with your wife, it sounds like you did a great job of pointing out serious flaws with the Bible. It may be a bit much for her to take it all in at once, but hopefully she'll be able to see that you have valid reasons for your views. At the very least, hopefully she'll learn to respect how much thought you've put into it, doing your best to make an honest assessment (as opposed to just wanting to rebel against God).

 

I was fortunate in that my wife, though still a believer, did not behave at all the way your wife has. She still treats me with love and respect (as I do with her). I can't imagine how horrible it would be to have to go through what you've been dealing with, but I suspect that my depression phase would have lasted much longer than it did.

 

At any rate, I do have one suggestion. You mentioned that your wife said that she felt like you weren't allowing her to say anything as you were going through your explanations. I know that you're quite familiar with the Christian arguments, and it's highly likely that a lot of what you're pointing out to your wife are things she's never heard or thought of before, so it can seem like you need to lay it all out there in rapid-fire method. As much as she needs to hear where you're coming from, I do think that you should try not to completely dominate the discussion. It may be helpful to let her say some of what's on her mind as you go through things, even though it won't likely be anything you haven't already heard. It would help her feel more respected in the matter, and it could even lead to more meaningful discussion as you can then address what she says. That would make it take longer to get to all of your points, of course, but you could still get to them. Hopefully it will make for great communication between the two of you, giving you a chance to hear and respond to what she's thinking, and giving her more time to process the overwhelming information.

 

At any rate, I applaud your efforts to work through all of this. I wish you the best as you move forward. Good luck!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow your story is my life. Over time she'll learn that you are the same person. I got that whole sex is different mess too. If your wife is anything like mine its because now she's thinking about it A LOT even during sex and that distraction really can wreck the moments of intimacy. It's not like on your honeymoon bible verses were running through her head during sex. The issue is on the table now and its on everybody's mind....all the time. Also we struggled with (though she won't admit it) with constantly trying to convince herself that things are different. Shes been told all her life that it's supposed to be different. Hell its a wonder you aren't strung out and pawned your wedding band by now.

 

All i can say is hang in there and just keep loving her the way you always have. She has to learn that you are the same person (with different opinions). That doesn't happen overnight. There will be lots of awkward moments along the way. I'm no expert and its only been 5 years since I dropped the bomb on my wife (story is on here somewhere) but that's what I've seen in my life. Also, you should skim through Dale McGowan's book called in faith and in doubt. Lots of good info there.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just caught up with this.

 

I've little to add save this - she's still there and still listening.

 

That means, I suspect, that she does not want to walk out.  You have an uphill battle and I don't envy you - but from what you've said it strikes me that there is something worth fighting for.  Your issue is how to break through the barriers of prejudice to a probably very frightened woman who is seeing her whole world in danger of collapsing.  That you have not walked out on her is probably both part of the problem for her and the source of an ill-defined hope.  She expects you to reject her as a "spiritual" woman; you have confounded her expectations about unbelievers.  That may prove to be the chink in her armour.

 

All the best.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What this woman should be seeing is how you love her, OP. I think that's what the problem is...is this her idea of faith? Being self centered, making her husband walk on eggshells, and dismiss the conversation ''when she's done?'' 

 

I think for many people, and this is what turns people off to faith and Christianity in general, is that many religious people talk a good game...and think of their faith as this thing that is going to keep their lives in a neat little box. You're not in her neat little box anymore. I don't mean to sound crass, truly...but, it pains me to read your post because you both have such different world views, and honestly...not sure faith is really the problem. The idea of soul mates is nonsense, there is really no such thing. This is why people set themselves up for a fall, when they think there is this one cosmic person that God had in mind, and poof...just like that, you are no longer that man? 

 

I will pray for you, because I do that now lol But, my prayer will be that she loves you for you, or sets you free. (and that she realizes what an amazing husband she has) Please keep us informed. smile.png

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.