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Goodbye Jesus

Invitation To Believers: Will You Describe How You Arrived At Your Belief?


M4rio

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Hello,

 

If this is the wrong forum, please direct me to the right one.

 

I'd like to hear from a believer who wants to explain what lead them to their current beliefs.

 

I am not saying that I want you to try to convert me, nor do I wish to deconvert you. I may ask questions when I don't agree or find the same things convincing, but I am not interested in a formal debate.

 

I do want to develop a deeper understanding of the variety of reasons people believe, however.

 

In recent months, I've gained a greater appreciation of the gospels as literature, and while I do not interpret them literally as historical events, I find value in the narratives and think the story of Jesus has important lessons that I like revisiting from time to time and I like learning from people who see things differently.

 

Thanks,

Mario

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Folks generally come to Jesus because they are born into a Christian family, someone they trust tells them about Jesus & they believe them, a traumatic event in their life convinces them it was God calling them to believe & trust in Jesus.

 

I've never personally heard of anyone examining the evidence & that leads them to believe the Jesus story was a real historical event.

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That's an interesting point about the historical evidence. I think people like Mike Licona and Gary Habermas would disagree, but I also would bet they grew up in Christianity. It's a really interesting question though, because certainly there are people who leave atheism for Christianity or other religions for Christianity. I don't know if they do so because they believe it on historical grounds, or because they think it offers a better community. It would be intriguing to hear from someone who has.

 

Folks generally come to Jesus because they are born into a Christian family, someone they trust tells them about Jesus & they believe them, a traumatic event in their life convinces them it was God calling them to believe & trust in Jesus.

 

I've never personally heard of anyone examining the evidence & that leads them to believe the Jesus story was a real historical event.

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My story about becoming a Christian is a little different. I grew up in an Atheist home. At the same time, I grew up in a very fundamentalist Christian town. My friends were always inviting me to church and I would beg my parents to let me go, but they didn't want me to become "brainwashed". I am a bookworm and I love to read, so I was very interested in reading the bible, which seemed like such  "forbidden fruit" to me. I finally started to go to church during college and that's how I became a believer. But, even as a child I felt that God was real and that there is a supernatural world. I always thought of God as being Love and the Creator of the universe. I never understood the concept of salvation or the need for it until I was an adult and I decided to join the Catholic church. But, I also felt the stories in the bible were allegories and weren't meant to be taken literally. 

Because of the realization that if the Adam and Eve story isn' t real then the whole story of salvation falls apart, I have been having struggles with maintaining my belief. I'm just confused right now. It is just ironic that I was raised by hardcore atheists and I am going through this quandary at this point in my life! I guess the way I rebelled as a teen was to make up my mind that I was going to go to church when I got out from under my parents thumbs! 

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Thanks for your response! Your story is interesting to me because you nail some themes that I have been reading about lately. The allegorical nature of the stories being one, and the doubt about the Adam and Eve story and thus the need for salvation is another. But, even more relevant is the whole "forbidden fruit" problem.

 

Have you read any of Peter Rollins books or watched his talks? His latest book, The Divine Magician, focuses on this angle heavily. If you have not, watch these brief videos about the book -> http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAISstVxi5GlbwGVoR10VlZ-vCfJu61WF

 

Pete has the incredible ability to speak/explain/interpret in a way that makes his message palatable to a broad audience, regardless of what position they take on matters like literal-historical or ahistorical-allegorical, because he focuses on the layer that is common in both views : the underlying theme and meaning.

 

I love hearing his thoughts and ideas and thought that in your situation, you might relate well to it too. His take on the crucifixion story and the salvation angle is even more intriguing, however!

 

My story about becoming a Christian is a little different. I grew up in an Atheist home. At the same time, I grew up in a very fundamentalist Christian town. My friends were always inviting me to church and I would beg my parents to let me go, but they didn't want me to become "brainwashed". I am a bookworm and I love to read, so I was very interested in reading the bible, which seemed like such  "forbidden fruit" to me. I finally started to go to church during college and that's how I became a believer. But, even as a child I felt that God was real and that there is a supernatural world. I always thought of God as being Love and the Creator of the universe. I never understood the concept of salvation or the need for it until I was an adult and I decided to join the Catholic church. But, I also felt the stories in the bible were allegories and weren't meant to be taken literally.

Because of the realization that if the Adam and Eve story isn' t real then the whole story of salvation falls apart, I have been having struggles with maintaining my belief. I'm just confused right now. It is just ironic that I was raised by hardcore atheists and I am going through this quandary at this point in my life! I guess the way I rebelled as a teen was to make up my mind that I was going to go to church when I got out from under my parents thumbs!

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Another common scenario is when a non-Christian falls in love with a Christian and miraculously "sees the light". wink.png

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Thank you for the link---the things he says resonate with me. I'm ordering his book:)

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That's an interesting point about the historical evidence. I think people like Mike Licona and Gary Habermas would disagree, but I also would bet they grew up in Christianity. It's a really interesting question though, because certainly there are people who leave atheism for Christianity or other religions for Christianity. I don't know if they do so because they believe it on historical grounds, or because they think it offers a better community. It would be intriguing to hear from someone who has.

As much as we deride the not-a-true-Christian claim that believers use to put us down, I think there is a sliver of truth in it sometimes. I was raised in a liberal mainline denomination and hated it. I never read the bible, except Ecclesiastes, and never seriously studied any of the theological stuff until after I became an evangelical Christian in college. I was lonely and they happened to be the ones that befriended me. So, I was not-a-true-Christian prior to that conversion. I would assume the same happens to nominal Muslims, Jews, even atheists who were raised that way and never thought twice about it.

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Thank you for the link---the things he says resonate with me. I'm ordering his book:)

Great! I hope it is helpful to you. I think a lot more about the things Pete says and describes than I do about thoughts and ideas that I hear from purely secular voices. I'm sure part of that is because he's a good story teller and knows how to use parables well -- plus I love his accent and sense of humor.

 

But truly, I really appreciate some of the projects he has sponsored, such as the "Evangelism Project", where members of his collective would go out to be evangelized by others and to ask them how they look through other people's eyes. He describes many other seemingly bizarre practices like transformance art, atheism-for-lent, and more.

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And so far no current Christians step up to describe how they became Christians.  Only people who left the cult are willing to describe how they were tricked into it.

 

 

As for me I was six years old the first time.  And I remember at age six how I had already been wanting to be a Christian so I must have been indoctrinated by my family my entire life.  When I got some doubts around age 9 or 10 my parents sent me to Bible camp for intense indoctrination and my emotions got the best of me.  I became a fundamentalist and allowed Christianity to take over all aspects of my life and every decision I made.  If that isn't a true Christian than true Christians do not exist.

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I wish Gus was still around.  Not only would he put forth an honest effort to answer this question; but his answer would be thoughtful, thorough, and meaningful.  He was about the only believer who was worth keeping around.  

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I have heard of people being convinced by apologetics only BUT its usually the crap most exchristians find to be nonsense.

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Another common scenario is when a non-Christian falls in love with a Christian and miraculously "sees the light". wink.png

 

Yep, that was me. It wore off upon divorce. :)

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That's cool, sounds like a shame he vanished.

 

I'm trying to move myself mentally past the limited experience I had with Christianity in a "nondenominational" church (evangelical, headed up by Charles Stanley's son Andy Stanley), and understand the variety of ways individual Christians define their personal faith and apply it in the world at large -- independent of official Church doctrines and statements of belief.

 

Listening to Dale McGowan's research in his In Faith and In Doubt book and YouTube talks is very encouraging in this respect.

 

I wish Gus was still around. Not only would he put forth an honest effort to answer this question; but his answer would be thoughtful, thorough, and meaningful. He was about the only believer who was worth keeping around.

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I don't claim to know it all. There are parts of the Bible I cannot explain. I can't prove God exists.

 

 

Here are a few reasons I am a Christian.

 

 I believe there is a God. I believe because of what I see of the world and living things.  It all appears to me to be evidence of design by a creator.

 

 A belief in God, I think, is part of human nature. We are naturally predisposed to a belief God and life after death.

 

The simplicity of the Christian faith is why I ultimately decided it was the truth. All the thief said on the cross said was “remember me” and Jesus accepted him.

 

No guru, no priests, no speaking in babble, no jumping over pews, no popes, no chants, no bells, no beads, no anointed leaders, no prayer wheels………..Just the faith expressed by the thief. He was saved because Jesus knew his heart. This kind of love and grace from God is why I believe.

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As happens most of the time, from what I remember, Ironhorse does not answer the question. Instead, Ironhorse makes up another question and tries to answer that.

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Thanks for the response. I have not heard that particular angle before, about the simple statement of the theif being the element that someone zeroes in on.

 

I think I can see your point though. If I understand correctly, you are saying that since all it took for Jesus to accept the convicted theif was for him to merely ask for remembrance (expressing truthfully his heart), then this represents all that any human need do to be saved by Jesus?

 

I don't claim to know it all. There are parts of the Bible I cannot explain. I can't prove God exists.

 

 

Here are a few reasons I am a Christian.

 

I believe there is a God. I believe because of what I see of the world and living things. It all appears to me to be evidence of design by a creator.

 

A belief in God, I think, is part of human nature. We are naturally predisposed to a belief God and life after death.

 

The simplicity of the Christian faith is why I ultimately decided it was the truth. All the thief said on the cross said was “remember me” and Jesus accepted him.

 

No guru, no priests, no speaking in babble, no jumping over pews, no popes, no chants, no bells, no beads, no anointed leaders, no prayer wheels………..Just the faith expressed by the thief. He was saved because Jesus knew his heart. This kind of love and grace from God is why I believe.

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Thanks for the response. I have not heard that particular angle before, about the simple statement of the theif being the element that someone zeroes in on.

 

I think I can see your point though. If I understand correctly, you are saying that since all it took for Jesus to accept the convicted theif was for him to merely ask for remembrance (expressing truthfully his heart), then this represents all that any human need do to be saved by Jesus?

 

I don't claim to know it all. There are parts of the Bible I cannot explain. I can't prove God exists.

 

 

Here are a few reasons I am a Christian.

 

I believe there is a God. I believe because of what I see of the world and living things. It all appears to me to be evidence of design by a creator.

 

A belief in God, I think, is part of human nature. We are naturally predisposed to a belief God and life after death.

 

The simplicity of the Christian faith is why I ultimately decided it was the truth. All the thief said on the cross said was “remember me” and Jesus accepted him.

 

No guru, no priests, no speaking in babble, no jumping over pews, no popes, no chants, no bells, no beads, no anointed leaders, no prayer wheels………..Just the faith expressed by the thief. He was saved because Jesus knew his heart. This kind of love and grace from God is why I believe.

 

 

 

 "If I understand correctly, you are saying that since all it took for Jesus to accept the convicted theif was for him to merely ask for remembrance (expressing truthfully his heart), then this represents all that any human need do to be saved by Jesus?"

 

Yes and I think it is a wondrous thing that it is that simple.

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I wish Gus was still around.  Not only would he put forth an honest effort to answer this question; but his answer would be thoughtful, thorough, and meaningful.  He was about the only believer who was worth keeping around.

You know how many times I have made an honest effort just to get told my thoughts and reasons are worthless.... After awhile, you see the wisdom of dust your feet and move on....

 

But Mario, if you would like to know my thoughts, please message me.

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A couple more scenarios:

 

(1) The prospective Christian prays the sinner's prayer or gets baptized and feels something special. The memory of that feeling becomes the anchor of the Christian's faith to weather the storms of skepticism.

 

(2) A person has a mental illness that makes Christianity seem real in spite of the skeptical arguments. Bipolar seems to be the most common culprit.

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I don't claim to know it all. There are parts of the Bible I cannot explain. I can't prove God exists.

 

 

Here are a few reasons I am a Christian.

 

 I believe there is a God. I believe because of what I see of the world and living things.  It all appears to me to be evidence of design by a creator.

 

 A belief in God, I think, is part of human nature. We are naturally predisposed to a belief God and life after death.

 

The simplicity of the Christian faith is why I ultimately decided it was the truth. All the thief said on the cross said was “remember me” and Jesus accepted him.

 

No guru, no priests, no speaking in babble, no jumping over pews, no popes, no chants, no bells, no beads, no anointed leaders, no prayer wheels………..Just the faith expressed by the thief. He was saved because Jesus knew his heart. This kind of love and grace from God is why I believe.

@ironhorse, these are reasons your faith persists, but maybe you initially became a Christian for other reasons? I believe you said your father was in the ministry, so you must have been indoctrinated. (That is what happened to me too - although my parents were not in the ministry.)
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I wish Gus was still around.  Not only would he put forth an honest effort to answer this question; but his answer would be thoughtful, thorough, and meaningful.  He was about the only believer who was worth keeping around.

You know how many times I have made an honest effort just to get told my thoughts and reasons are worthless.... After awhile, you see the wisdom of dust your feet and move on....

 

But Mario, if you would like to know my thoughts, please message me.

 

There seems to be a knee-jerk criticism of Christian posts sometimes, and I can understand why it would get tiresome.
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I don't claim to know it all. There are parts of the Bible I cannot explain. I can't prove God exists.

 

 

Here are a few reasons I am a Christian.

 

 I believe there is a God. I believe because of what I see of the world and living things.  It all appears to me to be evidence of design by a creator.

 

 A belief in God, I think, is part of human nature. We are naturally predisposed to a belief God and life after death.

 

The simplicity of the Christian faith is why I ultimately decided it was the truth. All the thief said on the cross said was “remember me” and Jesus accepted him.

 

No guru, no priests, no speaking in babble, no jumping over pews, no popes, no chants, no bells, no beads, no anointed leaders, no prayer wheels………..Just the faith expressed by the thief. He was saved because Jesus knew his heart. This kind of love and grace from God is why I believe.

@ironhorse, these are reasons your faith persists, but maybe you initially became a Christian for other reasons? I believe you said your father was in the ministry, so you must have been indoctrinated. (That is what happened to me too - although my parents were not in the ministry.)

 

 

I have said this many times here.....so now again:  My father was a Baptists minister. My parents did indeed express their faith to me, but I was not indoctrinated.

 

I was encouraged by my parents to question everything (including the Christian faith) and to read. They never restricted me on what books I could read. My father had many books. 

 

I'm a reader. 

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So you're a reader?

 

So how about writing something?

 

So how about writing that skeptical appraisal of your faith for us.

 

Right here.

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I wish Gus was still around.  Not only would he put forth an honest effort to answer this question; but his answer would be thoughtful, thorough, and meaningful.  He was about the only believer who was worth keeping around.

You know how many times I have made an honest effort just to get told my thoughts and reasons are worthless.... After awhile, you see the wisdom of dust your feet and move on....

 

But Mario, if you would like to know my thoughts, please message me.

 

There seems to be a knee-jerk criticism of Christian posts sometimes, and I can understand why it would get tiresome.

 

 

 

Uh, no.  Christianity is completely without merit.  Pointing out the facts is not a knee-jerk.  Furthermore End3 is no victim.  I've lost count of the number of times I have seen him start trouble. 

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