Old School-And Proud Of It

[BarbarousBill]

Good evening gents and ladies:

 

I'm a 22 y.o. straight white guy in Idaho and an old school conservative (Burkean, not American). If anything I'm a new deal Republican, maybe Democrat (though I wouldn't fit in well and it wouldn't advance my career prospects). I'm trying to get into law enforcement and hope to go SWAT or become a mercenary for a PMC. Or a technician of some sorts. Anyways, my point is to inform you I'm not hip or cool. I'm politically incorrect, don't care what folks think of me, and don't particularly like new things.

 

The relation this has to my story is I first really seriously considered the materialist perspective in Lucretius' "On the Nature of Things." I never read Dawkins or Hitchens nor read the works of Michio Kaku or whoever. I've read Hawking, but not enough to warrant stimulating conversation. For me the epitome of literary stimulation has been The Latins, with some straying into Archaic Greek philosophy. I'm actually an avid fan of the Cynics, Academics, Stoics, and Epicureans. I see no reason to consider one over the other nor any reason to pause over their disagreements. I keep Lucretius with Marcus Aurelius. Having a library of over 2000 books at one time (I've whittled it down to just 150 and put what I like on audiobooks or kindle) I never thought of getting rid of them, or Cicero, or Anaxagoras, or any of their like. I've gotten rid of Flew, Russell, Heidigger, Kant, Marx, Hegel, Fichte, etc. (I'm slightly conversant in German and have German cousins as I'm German-American and partly Irish, so I've had a strong interest in my forefathers for awhile now). Anyways, this foray into the late great ancients was my way into naturalism and self sufficient ethical systems.

 

For sone context my sister is a soft agnostic and despises religious organizations. My family didn't disown her or nothing. She just told my dad in the car, and he told mom. They didn't say anything. Sometimes my mom says it'd be nice to see her in church someday but she doesn't go to church either so it's more of a joke. My mom told me in confidence she believes her daughter will go to heaven and that's the end of it. The only time her religious views come up is when some poor schmuck tries to get her to go to church/mosque/synagogue/stupa/etc. with him/her and we all laugh at the poor dupe for even trying. I go to church with my dad every now and then for aesthetic reasons, and because the pastor is a nice guy. Plus the church has good career building volunteer stuff. Good for your resume. I should clarify we are Lutheran. But anyways my family doesn't think religion is a big deal. You'd think that should make it easy for me, my dad is a gnostic stoic who let me read from his works on Epicurus, Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, et. Al. My mom was more traditionally religious, but totally unobservant. She's a liberal Lutheran since she supports gay marriage, evolution, stuff like that. The only thing my family does make a stink about is politics and for my dad, philosophy. In high school I was an angsty self-righteous little know-it-all asscrack, and I "came out," as a Buddhist-Communist (this was my form of rebellion, and socialization by online forums debating the merits of Leninism versus Maoism, and all that jazz). My family was weirded out by the communism, but not the Buddhism. My mom said "at least you aren't a Muslim" (to her credit my mom almost died on 9/11 and my dad almost died numerous times in the middle east). I was a devil child, according to my mom, for being red, not for being Buddhist. And even then that was said in jest. When I mentioned Lucretius to my dad he goes off on tangents about how superior Stoicism is to Epicureanism. Sometimes I go off too. It's why we like chilling with each other. You had to be smart though. If you weren't, my dad was merciless. Anywho, I could go up to my family and tell them I'm agnostic (they don't know what Ignosticism is) or humanistic or something, and they'd probably be okay with it. But I don't, and here's why: it would hurt my mom. I can tell my dad, and my sister. But I'll never tell my mom. I'd rather not put her into an early grave. She is the type of person to not say much even when she's really hurt, and I'd be forcing my dad to deal with that when it's more humane to keep my big mouth shut. It isn't me repressing nothing, it's just the right thing to do. Life isn't all about me and my self worth isn't tied to letting the world know all my thoughts or anything. My self worth comes from hard work on the job. Love means doing things you don't always like for the people you care about. And not telling my mom is pretty painless. I'd be reluctant to ever come out as a Democrat to my parents though, god help me then. But I'm happily a Republican, though more of a Nelson Rockefeller sort. Though oddly Calvin Coolidge is my favorite president.

 

Anyways what convinced me to be humanist? ROME TOTAL WAR!!! The BEST video game EVER. But seriously. Rome. Total. War. Especially the barbarian invasion expansion pack. I loved playing as the Germans and wiping out the Romans in Teutoberg forest. (I know that's contradictory with my love of Marcus Aurelius, but in my opinion, a man is the sum of his contradictions). What really got me was the German way of life. Reading Germania and Agricola by Tacitus had me hooked from the start. It was empowering to live like the dwarves from The Hobbit movies. It was more honest to me, and more realistic. I like hootch, chicks with great figures, good food, and grand adventures with my buds, and a good party/feast. I'm not too concerned with an afterlife when I can afford wine and feta cheese in abundance, and share in my feasting with friends and family.

 

My conversion from Christianity to Ignosticism really was a long and far more complicated process than I've presented here, but I don't like sharing too much. Where's the fun in that? And for those who've had a harder or more difficult time than I had; I hope you poor sonsabitches do okay, you deserve a nice bit of peace and quiet after your struggle.

[dask]

Lol. Thanks man, I wouldn't mind hearing your struggles from christianity to ignotism, I'm still struggling, it's only been 3 months for since I first started doubting. U are lucky to get out of it at age 20. I'm 29. U made me laugh though, thanks.

[BarbarousBill]

Lol. Thanks man, I wouldn't mind hearing your struggles from christianity to ignotism, I'm still struggling, it's only been 3 months for since I first started doubting. U are lucky to get out of it at age 20. I'm 29. U made me laugh though, thanks.

I'm glad you liked it! I left out a lot of real struggle. Multiple gfs, effed up shizznit, all sorts of juicy bits like that. I've had to learn not to be stupid from the school of hard knocks lol. But the real struggle was the sentimentality to it. It's hard to leave something you grew up near. My dad read bible stories to me growing up (I found out he never believed in them verbatim, and did it more to help my literacy more than anything). It's like when I became a Seahawks fan, I felt a little like I was betraying my family. No fun, but in the end I don't regret it. Another struggle was what would I be afterwards.... If I had to be labelled, I liked Ignosticism compared to Atheism or Agnosticism. It actually made sense to me.

 

I hope your struggles turn out for your betterment and that everything goes your way though man!

[Vigile]

We'll probably disagree on much BB as I'm a JS Mill liberal and a bit of a communist (it's complicated), but you're an interesting and intelligent guy. Glad to have you here. 

[BarbarousBill]

Thanks Vigile! It is nice to meet your acquaintance. I had all his writings at one point (I'm converting the books I like, but don't want to physically store into e-format). He's a good writer. I prefer Montesquieu and Locke, though. Most favorite would probably be the Humboldt brothers.

[Margee]

My conversion from Christianity to Ignosticism really was a long and far more complicated process than I've presented here, but I don't like sharing too much. Where's the fun in that? 

 

Welcome to Ex-c BararousBill. So glad you joined us! Thanks for sharing your philosophies with us. Sounds very interesting! 

 

 I`ll be real happy to hear you share your story about becoming an x-Christian because this is what this particular section is for........ 

 

``Help encourage someone else who is trying to deprogram themselves from religion - tell them how you did it or are doing it.``

 

 

This is a wonderful conversation and story and I thank you for sharing with us but I think I will move this to Ex--Christian life for now. It`s more appropriate there. If you want to share your deconversion story with us, I`ll be glad to switch it back!!

 

Again, glad to have you here with us friend!!

 

(hug) 

[rjn]

Welcome!

I'd also classify myself as some sort of conservative, at least regarding some issues. I'm very liberal when it comes to personal freedoms, but like to think that some traditional values do have a point and serve as general guide lines. If a society do away with all social norms, you need to enforce laws instead, which to me is the opposite of freedom, so I'd rather keep those "outdated" norms instead of "deconstructing" them like the left wants to do.

 

You seem to have a good taste in literature as well. I have an affinity for the old greeks and latins, though admittedly, I have only read a little, and mostly excerpts. Need to get my hands on Aurelius "Meditations". As for the german philosophers and authors, familiar with Jünger?

As for Total War... it's probably the gaming series I've spent the most time on, and Rome in particular. Tried Europa Barbarorum?

[BarbarousBill]

 

My conversion from Christianity to Ignosticism really was a long and far more complicated process than I've presented here, but I don't like sharing too much. Where's the fun in that? 

 

Welcome to Ex-c BararousBill. So glad you joined us! Thanks for sharing your philosophies with us. Sounds very interesting! 

 

 I`ll be real happy to hear you share your story about becoming an x-Christian because this is what this particular section is for........ 

 

``Help encourage someone else who is trying to deprogram themselves from religion - tell them how you did it or are doing it.``

 

 

This is a wonderful conversation and story and I thank you for sharing with us but I think I will move this to Ex--Christian life for now. It`s more appropriate there. If you want to share your deconversion story with us, I`ll be glad to switch it back!!

 

Again, glad to have you here with us friend!!

 

(hug) 

 

 

Thank you for the warm invitation!

 

I cannot say that my first inklings of a non-Christian worldview came at any time in my youth prior to age 14. Before then I was blissfully uninitiated into religion except in very rare circumstances or only for a limited time as my parents' desire to attend church waxed and waned (usually the latter over the former). My father viewed religion as a scam, basically. He liked the Lutheran church, though, and tolerated identifying by it, mostly for my mom's peace of mind. My mom didn't go to church but basically took the religion of Christianity to mean be nice to people, don't kill, don't steal, and you go to heaven. Hell was for Hitler, Stalin, and the movers who stole crap from us when we moved to Europe. We all moved to Idaho over ten years ago, and it was in middle school I first found I liked girls.

 

So I did what any young gent would do and ask out a girl. Then I found out some girls were off limits, as their religion told them they couldn't date till 16. I was aghast. What was this religion, and why was I being date-blocked by it? To be fair I was fat and ugly so it wasn't particularly the religion's fault I was being rejected. But it was the first time I had religion play an impactful role in my daily life, and it was negative. I found out that Mormons were not allowed to even consider dating till 16. So then I turned 16 and the girls I asked out had to find other excuses to not date me. In the meantime I became more avidly entertained by politics and its devilish twin, religion. More than anything I wanted to be correct, and I wanted power. I was a young little megalomaniac who wanted precision and perfection in thinking, and in operation. I thought I could know everything and help everyone, politically. For whatever reason I thought I wasn't good enough and was going to hell no matter what I did, or didn't do, or believed, or whatever, because either I was going to hell for being a Christian, and Islam was right or Buddhism or what-have-you, or I was that other and was going to hell for not being a Christian.

 

I became obsessed with being perfect, or believing perfectly. I had volumes of apologies of any religion you can name off the top of your head, and academic monographs on religions you'd think were names made up by crack addicts segueing into bad acid trips. It scared me. I didn't want to leave my family, or my friends. High school, sophomore year, was the first time I met a lesbian. Before then I was a socially conservative Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist (if you have to ask, you've probably blown your brains out over the distinctions of Marxism out there), which meant I was very uncomfortable with homosexuality and of course I was highly religious, so I thought it would send me to hell even acknowledging it. There were ethnic gangs at school, and they were also socially conservative. And I was well liked by all of them.

 

If it was controversial, I was all up in that shit.

 

Anywho, I liked the lesbian, she was okay. She liked guns, and racing cars. I liked guns and racing cars. She also gave me kick ass dating advice to ask out girls with. I really appreciated that! Then I decided lesbians cannot go to hell. They give good dating advice, so they're okay. I met a gay guy soon after, and he was a good business partner. Keeping in mind a high school business partner is always a shady practice. I sold black market chewing gum, invisible ink pens, sweet tea (mormons paid high dollar for this forbidden sweetness), and other stuff and made enough money to do stupid things with. By stupid I mean buy whole volumes of old dead philosophers no one cares about except PhDs who get boners at the mention of Heidegger and Wittgenstein.

 

In hindsight I would've made a lot more money if I invested in bonds, index funds, and maybe a 401(k), while the economy was in a depression.... I'd be rich by now. Either way he was cool. He told me I looked like shit and that's why girls don't like me. So I started shaving my attempt at facial hair and bought decent clothes (not on my dime, I was a good weasel after all, and every good highschooler worth his salt can mooch like the dickens his parents with just the right amount of grovelling and time wasting). So gay guys were okay too. They made me money so I could feel more self-righteous. I was the school Sith Lord. I made money. I swore so much teachers would avoid me. I also had a hand in a number of questionable pranks.

 

It was jolly good fun that would land a modern youngster 10-life on one charge or another. My my how times change in a decade.... Anyways around senior year I was worried about my future. I didn't do homework in high school, but aced every single test I ever took. My teachers hated me because I was the smartest kook in class, but didn't turn in any homework. I'd do better than their advanced placement classes and could intelligently debate with college educated teachers who were paid too little to teach too much. Needless to say I was a straight D and C student. So for this last year my main concern was not failing, and also college. So I applied to the local area community college (I didn't take the ACT/SAT and didn't want to, the community college just had an entrance exam which I aced).

 

That first semester in college was a breath of fresh air (although I miss community college. I despised four year university, it was entitled over-priced bullhonkey built on false promises and lies). I got all As! I didn't do any homework and it only counted for 10% of the grade most of the time. Professors loved talking after class. I started not caring about philosophy anymore. Instead I cared about geology, math, stuff like that. You know, more useful shizznit. I also came out of my shell, abandoned idealist politics, and started going out with lots of women, and having wonderful escapades and adventures. My my my.... Still good times.

 

I'm glad to be young. Anyways I also got the best job ever and focused on that a lot. And became a very moderate libertarian (I prefer libertarianism to any philosophy, I just don't think I could ever feasibly change the USA to libertarianism. It'd be nice if the Libertarian Party was a major party, but I don't expect it to be in my lifetime). So this is around the first year of college. I'd never once thought there wasn't a definite higher power beyond myself. It was totally foreign and completely unthinkable. I'd dabbled in paganism for a bit, but eh. Not my cup of tea. Tea is my cup of tea. Except herbal tea. Euch! Black, with cream and sugar, in the proper and traditional British way, danke schoen.

 

For whatever reason I started thinking about philosophy again. Then I started reading ancient Latin atheists/materialists in the first year of university. That was the only useful non-bullhonkey thing I did there. Re-reading Lucretius with a perhaps slightly more mature mind and with appreciation of the subject matter was truly exhilarating. I realized that there were serious issues with the god problem and religions. I also at this time started looking at religion economically. What was the benefits, in real terms, of being this religion or that religion? I was considering becoming mormon for the economic advantages, but the fact I'd have to lose the alcohol, coffee, and tea that I so love would have been a dealbreaker. Plus I'd have to share a church with Mitt Romney and Harry Reid. Ewwwwwwwww....... 

 

Basically I dawdled over what I really was and tried to figure it out. Then I kind of moved back to focusing on work, made a bunch of personal mistakes that cost me thousands of dollars and hard knocks I'm still working out (brief stint of near-homelessness, multi-joblessness, so forth [though to my credit I never took welfare and won't]). And when I sat down to ponder on it in the last year I'd remembered an old Wikipedia article I found because I was sad and lonely one night and the blue hyperscript looked so kinky at 3am.

 

It was on Ignosticism which is basically a form of Atheism/Agnosticism and is also distinct from them. Essentially at the most basic it is the argument that god is impossible to either exist or not exist and cannot be either tested nor untested until the parameters and terms of the label god is defined. This struck me as totally honest and realistic. I was at peace with this understanding (or lack thereof). To me it made the most sense. How can there be a god if I cannot define it plausibly to test it or be unable to? If god is love, then god exists when I think about my family, semi-occasionally (dependent on liquor) friends, and such. If god is power, then god exists in the form of government. If god is omniscience, then that is a much harder concept to debate, but if I was being realistic then it wouldn't concern me too much because it doesn't directly impact me. Although I guess omniscience would merely be natural law (such as gravity) by another name. If god was omnipotent then it becomes another problem of definition. What is omnipotence? Hence I decided on Ignosticism as my identity because it made definite sense to me, it didn't require I look at the world with certainty.

 

It was inconsequential. That's the world I'll use. Yeah.... Inconsequential. My decision didn't directly impact me, it was just acknowledging what I already thought. What was painful for me was looking through childhood stuff and not wanting to go back to that. Even though I knew better, was an adult, and independent, you always want a special connection to your family that never goes away. Luckily I was mature enough to know that good parents want kids who are independent adults, not drones. My family (except my mom because she doesn't like talking about religion because she doesn't care about it) knows I'm pretty much Agnostic or at least not really or traditionally Christian. Most people who know me really well think I'm either a Deist or Agnostic or Atheist. My best friend keeps asking me, and I'll try telling him but it just goes over his head. So he sticks with Atheist. I don't care much either way.

 

I'll shock some people I meet occasionally like when I made a big donation to a homeless shelter and they asked how religious I was and I said I wasn't, and they said wow, that's really cool (Idaho's generally tolerant of people if they aren't religious unless you're up in their face about it or preface it by saying you're a Democrat, and are generally tolerant of people if they are religious unless you're up in their face about it or preface it by saying you're a Democrat). I have had no negative consequences from my being Ignostic and don't expect to. My family is very clannish. We are strong and we care about each other most of all things in the world. I've got a great life so far and I'm excited for what's to come. I don't worry about things. If I was honest an afterlife is a nice idea, but I'd rather worry about this life. If I was brutally honest I think an afterlife is wishful thinking in a grim reality.

 

A lot of conversions or de-conversion I read are very much tied to suffering and I guess I don't really follow that trend. I haven't suffered for my choices as much as I could have. But I think if anyone wanted a really good reason for not being Christian it would be to see the real life consequences of being not-Christian of improving the quality of life, more happiness, less stress, more peace. I hope that my story can convince people who are in fact worried as I was about economics and religion to not worry so much. My conversion to Ignosticism gave me peace of mind, I have gained friends, I am true to myself and my relationships with others, especially intimate girlfriends, has always improved because they know me better since I know myself better. I implore you to learn more and to really try to look at your reality and understand it better. I think if you are honest with yourself you will see a discrepancy between what is written and books and the reality you confront. Don't be stupid either, if you will die for converting I'd recommend making enough money to move somewhere you can not die for being whatever you want to be. But reading a book on atheism or reading stories is one thing. Meeting an Atheist is another. I've been blessed by a great many experiences with people from all over the world from every socio-economic category and any identity a person could reasonably claim. And I've had friends of all of them. To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, I didn't leave Christianity, Christianity left me. Jesus to me is a political radical who got crucified for treason (thank you Reza Aslan for a readable book I can read on the pot after a round of tequila and taco bell).

 

Being not-Christian isn't taking away from your life. It is opening up your life to infinite possibilities you have a responsibility to bring to the world, to your children. A world where you can see beauty without superficial perfection. Decay is beautiful. Ruins are haunting in a soul-stirring way. The decay of atoms is powerful. It's like the playboy problem. I can have the perfect girl on page 3 of playboy, or a beautiful woman in the same bedroom. I'd rather be happy with beauty than traumatized by perfection.

 

If you are reading this I implore you to look into Ignosticism first maybe on wikipedia, then googling it and going from there. READ LUCRETIUS' On the Nature of Things. And for the love of god read Reza Aslan's Zealot. Read Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. My turning point was realizing I wanted to be at peace. I wanted to be happy. I wanted to finally know what joy felt like. I was worried about burning in any hell, and it vanished for the false prophet it was. The hell wasn't afterlife, it was thislife. Hell was self-inflicted.

 

Perhaps the one thing I gleaned from the study of Norse Heathenry is an appreciation of a good death. My goal in life is to die a good man in honor and glory. Whether that's after taking down the Big Judd's burger challenge or in a blaze of glory, or in my bed after doing something worthwhile in life, I want to die good. Being miserable all the time would not have been a good death.

 

And more encouraging pieces of advice come from Mark Twain,

 

Whoever has lived long enough to find out what life is, knows how deep a debt of gratitude we owe to Adam, the first great benefactor of our race. He brought death into the world.

- The Tragedy of Pudd'nhead Wilson and the Comedy of the Extraordinary Twins

 

The Impartial Friend: Death, the only immortal who treats us all alike, whose pity and whose peace and whose refuge are for all--the soiled and the pure, the rich and the poor, the loved and the unloved.

- Mark Twain, last written statement; Moments with Mark Twain, Paine

 

Life was not a valuable gift, but death was. Life was a fever-dream made up of joys embittered by sorrows, pleasure poisoned by pain; a dream that was a nightmare-confusion of spasmodic and fleeting delights, ecstasies, exultations, happinesses, interspersed with long-drawn miseries, griefs, perils, horrors, disappointments, defeats,humiliations, and despairs--the heaviest curse devisable by divine ingenuity; but death was sweet, death was gentle, death was kind; death healed the bruised spirit and the broken heart, and gave them rest and forgetfulness; death was man's best friend; when man could endure life no longer, death came and set him free.

- Letters from the Earth

 

Manifestly, dying is nothing to a really great and brave man.

- Letter to Olivia Clemens, 7/1/1885 (referring to General Grant)

 

(from http://www.twainquotes.com/Death.html )

 

If you are worried you'll go to hell for not believing, the believers'll tell you you're going to hell anyways for not trusting god. And other religions will tell you (and give you apologetic materials) you're going to hell for believing in the wrong message. Either way you look at it you're doomed. Except you really aren't. If you have the means and it won't ruin your life and everything in it, then telling everyone you're different is okay. If you can only tell yourself, more power to you I support you. But I implore anyone doubting, take that first step and try it out. There's a 30-day free trial for a lot of things these days. Why not try out Ignosticism for a little while and see how it fits? I won't yell at you if you don't like it. I can't guarantee that Christians or other religions would take such an attitude, though. Your miles may vary.

 

One thing I did take from Christianity was a value for every living being. Don't lose your potential to be great. And no matter what you are a valuable person. What helped convince me Christianity wasn't right was that some were valued over others. What got me from joining other religions was that group of elect changes or obfuscates, but always is there.

 

The only other thing I thought that really put the nail in the coffin is I thought about a 100% Christian world and I shuddered. How boring, and horrible would that be? It'd be a gray canvas of such monotone that I couldn't possibly exist happily. I like colors and vibrancy. It keeps it interesting.

 

Anywho all the best of luck to whoever is reading this on their journey. I found my peace and I hope everyone else can too.

Welcome!

 

I'd also classify myself as some sort of conservative, at least regarding some issues. I'm very liberal when it comes to personal freedoms, but like to think that some traditional values do have a point and serve as general guide lines. If a society do away with all social norms, you need to enforce laws instead, which to me is the opposite of freedom, so I'd rather keep those "outdated" norms instead of "deconstructing" them like the left wants to do.

 

You seem to have a good taste in literature as well. I have an affinity for the old greeks and latins, though admittedly, I have only read a little, and mostly excerpts. Need to get my hands on Aurelius "Meditations". As for the german philosophers and authors, familiar with Jünger?

 

As for Total War... it's probably the gaming series I've spent the most time on, and Rome in particular. Tried Europa Barbarorum?

I'm assuming you mean Ernst Juenger? Or am I forgetting my German philosophers again? Haha! No I haven't tried Europa Barbarorum, but I'll look into it. Have you tried Europa Universalis: Rome? It's pretty good, but a lot of micromanagement at the beginning.

[rjn]

Yeah, that would be Ernst Jünger. He was no straight-up philosopher but his works do contain quite a lot of philosophy none the less. He was a friend of Heidegger and there's a book called "Über die linie" based on their correspondences. "Auf den Marmorklippen" (On the Marble Cliffs) is hands down one of the most beautiful novels I've read (don't know about the english translation though), so check it out if you haven't. In general, his books focus a lot on what constitutes resistance, but mainly on an intellectual and spiritual level.

 

Europa Barbarorum is a mod for RTW (in case you didn't know) that aims to be as historically correct as possible, even to the point of using ancient languages (or reconstructed ones for the Germanic and Celtic tribes). The map is expanded all the way to the Indus (=the Indo-Hellenic remnants of Alexanders time) and the game in general is a bit more complicated than vanilla Rome.

 

 

Being not-Christian isn't taking away from your life. It is opening up your life to infinite possibilities you have a responsibility to bring to the world, to your children. A world where you can see beauty without superficial perfection. Decay is beautiful. Ruins are haunting in a soul-stirring way.

 

Sounds a bit like the Radical Theology approach to Christianity as taught by Peter Rollins (thx Mario).

[Vigile]

 If a society do away with all social norms, you need to enforce laws instead, 

 

I agree with that -- though I think we have to be careful about how we define it as it can sometimes stretch over into anti-immigrantish type rhetoric and policy.  A society that needs a strong police isn't a society at all, but a jungle. 

 

Here in Russia, there are strong social structures in some areas. Crime is low and life runs pretty smoothly despite the fact the police here are pieces of shit that do nothing but collect bribes. OTH, I think a new national myth or propaganda of some sort along the lines of beautifying one's surroundings and behaving certain ways in public could be highly beneficial. So many care only about their own personal property and don't make an effort to beautify their neighborhoods. It's left over from the old communist system, but it keeps everything grey and drab on the outside (inside is quite nice and impressive). And many people have poor manners. They smoke in public as they walk down the street, blowing it in your face, or they lack other manners that make life run more smoothly. Not all, but enough that it's noticeable. 

[BarbarousBill]

Yeah, that would be Ernst Jünger. He was no straight-up philosopher but his works do contain quite a lot of philosophy none the less. He was a friend of Heidegger and there's a book called "Über die linie" based on their correspondences. "Auf den Marmorklippen" (On the Marble Cliffs) is hands down one of the most beautiful novels I've read (don't know about the english translation though), so check it out if you haven't. In general, his books focus a lot on what constitutes resistance, but mainly on an intellectual and spiritual level.

 

Europa Barbarorum is a mod for RTW (in case you didn't know) that aims to be as historically correct as possible, even to the point of using ancient languages (or reconstructed ones for the Germanic and Celtic tribes). The map is expanded all the way to the Indus (=the Indo-Hellenic remnants of Alexanders time) and the game in general is a bit more complicated than vanilla Rome.

 

 

Being not-Christian isn't taking away from your life. It is opening up your life to infinite possibilities you have a responsibility to bring to the world, to your children. A world where you can see beauty without superficial perfection. Decay is beautiful. Ruins are haunting in a soul-stirring way.

 

Sounds a bit like the Radical Theology approach to Christianity as taught by Peter Rollins (thx Mario).

 

I like Ernst Juenger and his concept of the 'Anarch.' It's what I really strive for in my own personal life. He's taboo in Germany but I hope they revise their views eventually. He's unknown almost everywhere else except maybe Britain. I looked into the Barbarorum and I'll have to download that, it looks pretty awesome! And as for radical theology I really like J.J. Altizer. Of all of them I like his Christian Atheism. Very thought provoking.

 

 If a society do away with all social norms, you need to enforce laws instead, 

 

I agree with that -- though I think we have to be careful about how we define it as it can sometimes stretch over into anti-immigrantish type rhetoric and policy.  A society that needs a strong police isn't a society at all, but a jungle. 

 

Here in Russia, there are strong social structures in some areas. Crime is low and life runs pretty smoothly despite the fact the police here are pieces of shit that do nothing but collect bribes. OTH, I think a new national myth or propaganda of some sort along the lines of beautifying one's surroundings and behaving certain ways in public could be highly beneficial. So many care only about their own personal property and don't make an effort to beautify their neighborhoods. It's left over from the old communist system, but it keeps everything grey and drab on the outside (inside is quite nice and impressive). And many people have poor manners. They smoke in public as they walk down the street, blowing it in your face, or they lack other manners that make life run more smoothly. Not all, but enough that it's noticeable. 

 

It seems to me manners are very important for a functional society. I am worried about Idaho since the driving is becoming totally degenerate. People are still very nice, like most Idahoans are, but the area is really on edge right now. Very worrying.

[Vigile]

Dunno what driving in Idaho has turned into since I left, but I dream of Idaho's calm roads. I first moved to DC from ID and had to learn to start aggressively tailgating lest I constantly get cut off. Now, here in Russia, it's a whole new ball game. Drivers do things that would be unthinkable anywhere in the US. I've had to learn to just swallow my pride and let it roll off; otherwise I'd constantly be pissed off. 

 

But all of these examples are infinitely better than India. It's pure chaos there. 

[rjn]

Yeah, the Anarch is a very interesting concept. Haven't read Eumeswil yet, but I've begun reading The Forest Passage which I think is the beginning of that idea. Don't think Jünger is that controversial in Germany anymore, and he's been big in France since the War.

[BarbarousBill]

Dunno what driving in Idaho has turned into since I left, but I dream of Idaho's calm roads. I first moved to DC from ID and had to learn to start aggressively tailgating lest I constantly get cut off. Now, here in Russia, it's a whole new ball game. Drivers do things that would be unthinkable anywhere in the US. I've had to learn to just swallow my pride and let it roll off; otherwise I'd constantly be pissed off. 

 

But all of these examples are infinitely better than India. It's pure chaos there. 

 

Driving in Idaho is growing progressively worse as people are moving here and refusing to assimilate to the culture. There's a lot of resentment towards Californians. In fact I sometimes make friends using it. "Hey, nice to meet you, what church you go to?" "Oh I'm not religious." "Really?" "Yep. Besides all these Californians up here trying to force their religion and driving on me, I hate it. I'm free Idahoan, not religious, and I won't let any Californian tell me otherwise." "You know what? I am a Baptist, but by god you're a good man." I am not even making it up hahaha!

Yeah, the Anarch is a very interesting concept. Haven't read Eumeswil yet, but I've begun reading The Forest Passage which I think is the beginning of that idea. Don't think Jünger is that controversial in Germany anymore, and he's been big in France since the War.

I would hope not, he's probably one of my favorite writers of all time. I want to get his "On Pain" which is probably his most controversial work (in his time and directly after). He's totally unknown in Idaho though. Most English classes kill the passion of most students for reading (although I've seen news outlets saying my generation is supposed to be reading more than we're given credit for, but meh). I kind of like Solzhenitsyn and Chekhov for the same reasons as Jünger. There really isn't an American writer quite like any of them. I mean there's a lot of attempts and maybe a few Kafka-like writers, but there is nothing like an American Chekhov or Jünger. Lots of wannabe Tolstoys, Dostoevskys, etc.etc. But in some ways I suppose it makes sense. Western Europe seems more geared towards Epicureanism, the USA towards Stoicism, Russia and Eastern/Central Europe towards Cynicism (the old ancient original, not the modern), and Britain towards the old Academician school of philosophy. Of course this is also a gross-generalization.... but among the "classics," in my own experiences I could see them using that frame of reference. But Wittgenstein would murder me for drawing a connection such as that.

[rjn]

Oh, didn't realize you were that into Jünger. Nice to meet a fellow fan! I still only have four of his books but I got hooked instantly after Storm of Steel (which has got to be the most immersive book I've read) and then got equally enthralled by Marble Cliffs. Besides being one hell of a writer, he was undeniably one of the most fascinating personas of the last century if you ask me.

 

Another old German I appreciate a great deal is Hermann Hesse.

[Vigile]

There's a lot of resentment towards Californians. 

 

 

Sounds like nothing at all has changed. Californians used to get their licence plates changed on day one out of fear someone would key their cars. 

 

My grandfather -- not the one that owned Viking, the other one -- hated Californians. Used to call them Californian-Oakeys and had a plethora of anecdotes to prove how stupid they were. 

[dask]

 

Lol. Thanks man, I wouldn't mind hearing your struggles from christianity to ignotism, I'm still struggling, it's only been 3 months for since I first started doubting. U are lucky to get out of it at age 20. I'm 29. U made me laugh though, thanks.

I'm glad you liked it! I left out a lot of real struggle. Multiple gfs, effed up shizznit, all sorts of juicy bits like that. I've had to learn not to be stupid from the school of hard knocks lol. But the real struggle was the sentimentality to it. It's hard to leave something you grew up near. My dad read bible stories to me growing up (I found out he never believed in them verbatim, and did it more to help my literacy more than anything). It's like when I became a Seahawks fan, I felt a little like I was betraying my family. No fun, but in the end I don't regret it. Another struggle was what would I be afterwards.... If I had to be labelled, I liked Ignosticism compared to Atheism or Agnosticism. It actually made sense to me.

 

I hope your struggles turn out for your betterment and that everything goes your way though man!

 

 

Hey, thanks I just saw your reply. I would have responded sooner. Thanks for sharing your story. I'll definitely be looking into some of the people and articles you mentioned. I know someone who told me he was ignostic, so I knew what it was before I came across you. He had a good view of life. Hope to see you around I'll post my story soon.

[dask]

 

Lol. Thanks man, I wouldn't mind hearing your struggles from christianity to ignotism, I'm still struggling, it's only been 3 months for since I first started doubting. U are lucky to get out of it at age 20. I'm 29. U made me laugh though, thanks.

I'm glad you liked it! I left out a lot of real struggle. Multiple gfs, effed up shizznit, all sorts of juicy bits like that. I've had to learn not to be stupid from the school of hard knocks lol. But the real struggle was the sentimentality to it. It's hard to leave something you grew up near. My dad read bible stories to me growing up (I found out he never believed in them verbatim, and did it more to help my literacy more than anything). It's like when I became a Seahawks fan, I felt a little like I was betraying my family. No fun, but in the end I don't regret it. Another struggle was what would I be afterwards.... If I had to be labelled, I liked Ignosticism compared to Atheism or Agnosticism. It actually made sense to me.

 

I hope your struggles turn out for your betterment and that everything goes your way though man!

 

 

Hey, thanks I just saw your reply. I would have responded sooner. Thanks for sharing your story. I'll definitely be looking into some of the people and articles you mentioned. I know someone who told me he was ignostic, so I knew what it was before I came across you. He had a good view of life. Hope to see you around I'll post my story soon.

[dask]

 

Lol. Thanks man, I wouldn't mind hearing your struggles from christianity to ignotism, I'm still struggling, it's only been 3 months for since I first started doubting. U are lucky to get out of it at age 20. I'm 29. U made me laugh though, thanks.

I'm glad you liked it! I left out a lot of real struggle. Multiple gfs, effed up shizznit, all sorts of juicy bits like that. I've had to learn not to be stupid from the school of hard knocks lol. But the real struggle was the sentimentality to it. It's hard to leave something you grew up near. My dad read bible stories to me growing up (I found out he never believed in them verbatim, and did it more to help my literacy more than anything). It's like when I became a Seahawks fan, I felt a little like I was betraying my family. No fun, but in the end I don't regret it. Another struggle was what would I be afterwards.... If I had to be labelled, I liked Ignosticism compared to Atheism or Agnosticism. It actually made sense to me.

 

I hope your struggles turn out for your betterment and that everything goes your way though man!

 

 

Hey, thanks I just saw your reply. I would have responded sooner. Thanks for sharing your story. I'll definitely be looking into some of the people and articles you mentioned. I know someone who told me he was ignostic, so I knew what it was before I came across you. He had a good view of life. Hope to see you around I'll post my story soon.

[dask]

Sorry I just meant to post that once. I'm just getting used to this forum.

[Aiyana]

MASSIVE Seahawks fan here (as I'm sure you can tell by my avatar). Just simply for that fact, welcome!!

[BarbarousBill]

MASSIVE Seahawks fan here (as I'm sure you can tell by my avatar). Just simply for that fact, welcome!!

You are automatically cool. 

[Aiyana]

 

MASSIVE Seahawks fan here (as I'm sure you can tell by my avatar). Just simply for that fact, welcome!!

You are automatically cool. 

 

Sad day yesterday!

[BarbarousBill]

 

 

MASSIVE Seahawks fan here (as I'm sure you can tell by my avatar). Just simply for that fact, welcome!!

You are automatically cool. 

 

Sad day yesterday!

 

SO sad.... I couldn't believe the score at halftime. I was almost done watching it, but then it's like a transformation happened and I was glad we could get back up to being competitive before the game ended. It sucked losing, but I'm glad they didn't give up at halftime.