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Goodbye Jesus

From A Fellow Sojourner


StephenW

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Introduction to Ex-Christians

Hi,

I’ve just joined this forum and would like to introduce myself. My name is Stephen. I am almost 65 years old. I've been journaling for the past 20 some years. Over the past 8 or 10 years I have been writing a blog & website http://live-anew.com , not to convince anyone else of anything, but more to just try to figure out what I believe, and what seems real to me. Over many preceding years I’ve listened scores of preachers and the beliefs of others. I thought that it was time I tried to figure out what my thoughts and beliefs are. To better explain my thoughts that I’ve written below, I’ve put a few links to some of the articles that I have written.


Earlier in my life I considered myself a strong Christian. Now, I don’t know what to call myself. I might ask, “What am I?” http://live-anew.com/node/741/what-am-i) OR, you could say that I’m a religious skeptic. (http://live-anew.com/node/584) However, I don't like to go by labels. Labels are too restrictive. I'm just me. I still believe in God, but it is not what the Christians call God. I do not believe in a loving God who threatens people with eternal punishment if they don't accept him. Carlton Pearson said it best, “God Is Not a Christian, Nor a Jew, Muslim, Hindu…” I am not someone to try to convince or convert anyone to my way of thinking or believing. I’m still trying to figure out life for myself. Many times I don’t know if what I think or believe is right or not, (even though it seems right at the time) so I certainly don’t want to convince anyone to follow me. As Galileo Galilei said, “You cannot teach a man anything, you can only help him to find it within himself.”


I do not think of myself as an ex-Christian, nor an ex anything, no more then I think of myself as an ex child just because I'm an adult now. I think of life as a journey will we progressed from one stage to another. It is not about being an ex anything, but in a journey of becoming who we will become.

When someone calls himself an ex-christian, the focus is on, “I’m not one of those people!” However, that does nothing to say who you are now. I’d rather focus on what I’m becoming, NOT on what I once was. However, telling where I came from helps others to understand my journey.


However, with that said, I feel more akin to the “ex-Christians” in this forum than many other people.


I was raised in what was called a Christian home, in the midst of many years of abuse., My parents used Bible verses to justify the abuse. Because I was raised in it and it was all I knew, I thought, “this is life, live with it.” I was very immature for much of my early life. I lived with my parents until my dad died, when I was 37. My parents encouraged us children to continue to live with them well into adulthood. We were all immature. We never had to deal with the stresses of real life. I think that I was afraid to go out on my own.

I won’t write out my story again here because I’ve already written out much of it here (http://live-anew.com/node/485) and on the connected pages.


When I thought of myself as a Christian I was afraid of so many people and things. I was afraid to listen to read the writings of other religions because I thought there was an “evil spirit” attached to them that would get into my mind and control me.


Nowadays I listen to many YouTube videos of atheist, agnostics, non Christians. I also listen to debates between Christians and atheists, between Christians and agnostics, and between Christians and so many other people. I listen to how the Christians speak of people who don't “accept Jesus as a their savior” are going to hell. That is another way of saying that “if you don't agree with me you're going to be punished forever and ever endlessly.” I no longer believe in hell. http://live-anew.com/node/173

The further away I get from Christianity the more I see how narrow minded many Christians are. That deeply saddens me. I see the bondage that so many Christians are under.


I am no longer angry at Christians or church. Earlier in my life, for a few years, I did go through a period of being angry at church and I stayed away.


At this point, I am going to church because my wife wants to go. It is more important to me that I do things with my wife. She still considers herself a Christian, and I’m OK with that. However, she doesn’t do all the “Christian” practices and rituals and the like. In the years that we’ve been married she has given up much of the religious mumbo jumbo, but she still keeps some. (As an example of what she used to be like, when we first got married 26 years ago she had 7 devotional books that she faithfully did every morning.) Nowadays she is just a very kind, generous and wonderful human being. She is constantly seeking what she can do to help others. She volunteers at Gleaners and at another produce distribution to the poor.


As far as religious beliefs go my wife and I believe quite differently. She still believes in a lot the religious dogma, in a way, but doesn’t she do all the religious trappings. So, although we might “believe differently”, it doesn’t matter, because we both believe and practice the the principle of loving each other, treating one another with kindness, gentleness, being compassionate, respecting one another, and so on. So, although our thoughts about God and religion might seem to be vastly different, the working out of our individual beliefs are almost identical. You might say that my beliefs can be summarized like this, God is Love: So Are You, Live Out Who You Are


She likes to go to church because she cares deeply about people and that is where the people are, and that is what she is used to doing. She isn’t doesn’t go there to listen to the sermons either, unless the preacher has something good to say. I'm okay with it because I'm not trying to get anything from church. I sometimes stay and listen to the sermons, not because I'm trying to “hear from God”, but because it's a passage of time until the activities after the sermon is done. I have went to countless Bible studies over many years, and I am done with them. However, I am part of a men's group, and you can read about it here. (The call to go deeper: http://live-anew.com/node/720)  I feel OK being a part of it because it's about being real, sharing our lives with one another.


I go to church because I like many of the people there, although I realize there are some parts of my life and belief system that I cannot share with them. And that saddens me.


I no longer believe in hell, or in Satan, or that the Holy Spirit is a person (http://live-anew.com/node/288),  nor in the Trinity. At this point I'm not sure what I think or believe about this person of “Jesus”. It seems that much of Christianity believes that Jesus is God. That makes no sense to me. I've heard Carlton Pearson talk about the “Christ principle” and that makes a lot more sense to me. I see that much of Christianity is full of superstitions.


I do not believe that the Word of God is the Bible (http://live-anew.com/node/191). To be honest, I don’t know if there is a heaven or an afterlife. And I don’t know if it makes any difference to me. There is nothing that I can do about it, and if doesn’t affect how I live my life.

 

This seems like a long enough introduction. I don't have time to write more, or to explain myself better. Looking forward to hearing from you all.

Best Wishes,

Stephen
 

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Welcome, Stephen!  I spent a couple of decades attending church and trying to find answers for my many questions about the bible and religion.  This was after my childhood and going through a born again time in my late teens.  I still find conversations and books about religion in general to be very interesting.  I'm now an atheist (past couple years or so) and it's just a more relaxing feeling for me.  Like you said about your wife, "she is just a very kind, generous, and wonderful human being," that's the main point of life, in my opinion.  Being a kind, generous and wonderful person is a great thing in itself, not because of a reward of heaven or a pat on the head from god, just because it's the right thing to do and a truly wonderful way to go through life.

 

I think you'll find some interesting conversations here!

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Welcome, thanks for sharing!

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Welcome! The question people of faith constantly ask says quite a lot about religion. "What do you believe?" "This is what I believe." "This is what We believe." Religious people never say, "What does science and the historical evidence lead you to accept is the most reasonable & logical option when it comes to the possibility of there being supernatural deities?

 

If I'm asked about my religious beliefs I say that I'm not a religious person. That seems to end the conversation without further inquires.

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@Amateur,
Thanks for your comments.
I agree, it is more important how we live our lives and how we treat others than would our religious beliefs (or lack thereof) are. I'm looking forward to interacting with others here as well.

@Burny,
Thanks for your welcome.

@Geezer
Yes, believing the evidence is a good practice.Yes, I can see how saying that you are not a religious person would stop inquiries in that area. Good Thoughts.

Best Wishes,
Stephen

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  • 3 weeks later...

I am almost 65 years old and have been part of various BBS's and forums for about 30 years. One of the key fundamental rules that I learned is do not hijack someone else's message thread. In some ways that makes it difficult to jump into the discussion that is already going on in someone else's message thread. Part of my uneasiness in this way because I'm new here.

With that said, I will just continue here in my own message thread for a bit.

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When I think about my thoughts about beliefs about God and life, I often feel so all alone. I guess that is one thing the drew me here, possibly a place to be share my thought without condemnation or judgement. I have been on this journey to wholeness for over 20 years. I am almost 65 years old. For much of this time I've had no one to talk to who really understands what I'm going through. So for many years I've just wrote out my thoughts and ideas in my journal. In the last 8 or 10 years I've written out much of my thoughts  on my blog/website www.live-anew.com. It is a place where I can share my thoughts without judgement.

 

I do not try to convince anyone else that my beliefs are right, because I am still searching for what is true and right and honorable. I just want to know what is true. I have had my fill of other people trying to tell me that I should follow their beliefs. I am NOT looking to have anyone else to me what I should believe. All I want is a safe place to discuss what seems right and true.

I do believe that there is a God, but I am not at all sure what that means. I am just convinced that my whole idea and knowledge of God are inadequate to explain all that is going on in this world. Bishop Carlton Pearson wrote a book titled, “God Is Not a Christian, Nor a Jew, Muslim, Hindu…” I have not read that book, but as far as it goes, that sounds right to me. I don’t think that God is only the God of the Christians, but of all people. Now, you might ask, what do I mean by "God". I've been pondering that for years. I've written out my current thoughts about God here: What is God: What do I mean when I say God? I'm not saying that this is truly God, but this is just what my current thinking is about God.

 

Now, if something says sthat they don't believe in God, or that there "Definitely is NO GOD!" that doesn't bother me. Who knows, I might be there some day, or not.

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OH!!! I forgot that I can't edit on this forum. Is that because I'm a newcomer, or is that just the way it is on this forum. Whenever I write I'm constantly revising. Not being able to edit can be a big problem.

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Welcome! :)

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OH!!! I forgot that I can't edit on this forum. Is that because I'm a newcomer, or is that just the way it is on this forum. Whenever I write I'm constantly revising. Not being able to edit can be a big problem.

 

That might be the case yes. A few features do not become available until a certain post count have been achieved. I guess this is a way to limit trolls and spammers.

 

And oh, welcome to ex-C!

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OH!!! I forgot that I can't edit on this forum. Is that because I'm a newcomer, or is that just the way it is on this forum. Whenever I write I'm constantly revising. Not being able to edit can be a big problem.

 

That might be the case yes. A few features do not become available until a certain post count have been achieved. I guess this is a way to limit trolls and spammers.

 

And oh, welcome to ex-C!

 

 

I think the magic number is 25, so it doesn't take too awful long to get the ability to edit.

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I am almost 65 years old. For much of this time I've had no one to talk to who really understands what I'm going through.

 

I also felt like that for a while after leaving the church. Being on this site helped, but what helped even more was a suggestion I received here to go to www.meetup.com and look for likeminded groups in my area. I've met some really good people that way. You may want to give it a try.

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Welcome! smile.png

 

 

 

OH!!! I forgot that I can't edit on this forum. Is that because I'm a newcomer, or is that just the way it is on this forum. Whenever I write I'm constantly revising. Not being able to edit can be a big problem.

 

That might be the case yes. A few features do not become available until a certain post count have been achieved. I guess this is a way to limit trolls and spammers.

 

And oh, welcome to ex-C!

 

 

 

 

 

OH!!! I forgot that I can't edit on this forum. Is that because I'm a newcomer, or is that just the way it is on this forum. Whenever I write I'm constantly revising. Not being able to edit can be a big problem.

 

That might be the case yes. A few features do not become available until a certain post count have been achieved. I guess this is a way to limit trolls and spammers.

 

And oh, welcome to ex-C!

 

 

I think the magic number is 25, so it doesn't take too awful long to get the ability to edit.

 

Citsonga and rjn,

Thanks for the welcome and for the information about when I might be able to edit.

 

 

I am almost 65 years old. For much of this time I've had no one to talk to who really understands what I'm going through.

 

I also felt like that for a while after leaving the church. Being on this site helped, but what helped even more was a suggestion I received here to go to www.meetup.com and look for likeminded groups in my area. I've met some really good people that way. You may want to give it a try.

 

Thanks for the referral to meetup. I may give that a try. Also, thanks for being understanding.

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StephenW, on 27 Jan 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

 

I am almost 65 years old. For much of this time I've had no one to talk to who really understands what I'm going through.

 

 

Stephen. I'm going to leave you a message and maybe we can talk on the phone if we are from the same country, I also find talking to people very helpful.

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I have been reading many stories talking about deconversion.  As I think about it, both conversion and deconversion all difficult terms for me to comprehend.  I just don’t relate to those words

Conversion seems like the act of putting on someone else's belief system. Deconverting seems like the act of removing someone else's belief system. I have a different viewpoint about what people mean by losing faith. I don’t see anyone as losing their faith. Instead, I seem them becoming more real about their life and their true faith (which is what they truly believe).

I go back to the beginning of my own journey, of the time when I confessed to my crime and deepest shame, which is when my whole world exploded. That's when I went into a deep blackness and I started journaling in earnest just to survive. I also got into counseling. Before this I had never really learned to think for myself. But this man, my first counselor, really validated that my thoughts and ideas (which I wrote in my journal) were valuable. HIs validation was extremely valuable to me because some of my thoughts and ideas that I wrote were very scary to me. With his encouragement I began to explore my own thoughts deeper and deeper. That was the beginning of my really beginning to think out of what I truly believe and think about life. Up until that time I had never really given much thought to what my true beliefs and thoughts world. I just kind of accepted what I heard other people say, including religion. From the time that I started journaling and counseling I have been examining much of my thinking and premises about life. This practice of journaling really helped me, especially after I was convicted and was on probation for 10 years, which include 10 years of treatment (“secular” counseling) with a new counselor. During this time I had to really delve into the distortions of my life, including my messed up religious thinking.  So, one could say that for the last 20 years that I have been getting more and more in touch with my real and true self. This has been a gradual progression into my learning and desiring to know what is true about so many things in life. Part of that has been my gradual letting go of all forms of religious thinking and just learning to think for myself.

 

Possibly because of the religious beliefs mixed with the abuse of my childhood I have never joined a church in my life. And especially since being in counseling for the past 20 I have refused to sign a statement of faith for any church or other religious organization. I will not agree to believe anyone else’s belief.

 

So, it is as though my old religious ideas have gradually been dissolving as new thoughts about reality have been replacing them. I have not been as concerned about whether or not Christianity is true. Rather I have been searching for what seems true to me. That has led me down a path that I would not have chosen for myself, that of the shaking up of my whole belief systems. That path has led me to examine what seems true about God, Faith, religion, morality, and many other important things of life. This has been an ongoing process of the last 20 years. It is not as though I am leaving something, such as in deconverting. Instead, it is a process of my becoming more true and real and to really believe in myself, of learning that my thoughts were valuable. It is learning to think for myself and not relying upon the thoughts and belief systems of other people. So in a large sense, this journey has not been about my losing my faith, but in gaining a true faith in who I am becoming and what I am learning about truth.

Best Wishes,

Stephen

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I was looking through the subforum about Ex-Christian Spirituality and saw a message thread about God worshipping. I would have replied there but apparently that forum is locked. So I decided to put a message here. The question was asked about worshipping Gods. So, I thought I would give my thoughts on that. First, what do I mean by the term "God"? Well, I no longer believe in the Christian God, but I do believe or think that there is something, which I have already explained here: What do I mean when I say "God"?. What I have written there seems so inadequate, but at least it is something. Now, what do I mean when I use the word "worship"? I saw a webpage here where I found "The simplest definition of worship is to “ascribe worth.”" That simple phrase probably best summarizes what I mean by worship. But what do I mean by that? When I "ascribe worth" to something, then I value it. So, what do I mean by that? Well, I value something, and when I think of that something I generally call it God. When I think of God, I also think about expressions of love, honor, truth, virtue, compassion, and the like. So, to sum that up, when I say that I "worship God" I am really saying that I give great value to the idea and practice of "love, honor, truth, virtue, compassion, and the like" to the extent that I will live my life by those principles. In fact, those make up who I am, I take those inside of me and live by them. But those aren't just terms to keep in my mind. Rather they involve actions, for example, treating my wife with love and compassion, treat her kindly and gently. But those practices are no limited to expressing them to my wife. It is my intention to live a "godly" life (meaning living by and practicing the aforementioned principles and characteristics) toward all people. Does that mean that I live my life perfectly? Of course not, but that is my aim and intention. When I fail, pick myself up, make apologies and corrections, and then go again. Life goes better when I have a good focus.
Anyway, I hope that was understandable.
Best Wishes,
Stephen

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As I look through this Ex-Christian.net I see people at various places in their beliefs and practices. Some seem like they are so angry at Christianity that they want to throw away anything related to it. 

I also went through some years at being angry at church and religion, and I've even been angry at God. Yes, I still believe in God. Even through all my anger at and disappointment with Christianity I never gave up that parts that I saw as important, such as telling the truth, honoring those around, showing true love and compassion., Of course, I saw those qualities more dimly while I was in Christianity (and it a way I'm still somewhat attached to some aspects of Christianity.)

 

But I'm no longer angry. In fact, I have no problem going to church with my wife (because she is still kind of a Christian, but not a typical Christian) and she likes me to go with her. Because I love my wife I am willing to do that for her. I no longer feel any resentment towards to the church or religious people, probably mainly because I am more secure in who I am and I no longer try to get anything from church (i.e. messages from God, etc.). I'm just there to interact with the people, and there are a lot of good caring people there. (meaning that they are caring in as much as they know how in their religious way.) I mainly feel sorry for them because I see that they are trapped in their belief system. There is one part of the church that I really like. It is called a men's transformational meeting, which I've written about here: The Call to Go Deeper, in a Small Group.

 

In the midst of accompanying my wife to church I still do a lot of listening to various speakers on YouTube, debates, atheists, agnostics, Christians of all flavors, ,  (i.e. Bart Ehrman, Bishop Carlton Pearson, Bishop John Shelby Spong, Marcus Borg, Lots of Speakers on Ted Talks, etc.) There is just so much good stuff to learn.

I think of all the years that I wasted with my Christian pride (i.e. "I'm a strong Christian, not like those fallen folks"). I saw no need to better myself. I cringe as I think of the way that I used to be, and, again, all the years that I wasted. But, it's never to late to begin again.

 

Best Wishes,

Stephen

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I got a lot of my values from my time in Christianity,  (i.e. Love, as in 1Cor 13,) and many others. Although I think that I could have just as well picked up many good values from other religions, such as the Toltec Spirit (1. Be Impeccable with your Word. 2. Don’t Take Anything Personally. 3. Don’t Make Assumptions. 4. Always Do Your Best) I really like those principles. I've heard that the "Golden Rule", "Do unto others as you would have done to you" is part of many of the world religions.

 

It would seem that the teachings of many religions were originally meant to be helpful, meaning they have good advice about how to live a good life and have good relationships with others. After all, as GuyGone said, the authors of those religious writings were not stupid. (of Course, GuyGone only mentioned the authors of the Christian Bible). However, the writings were not mean to be part of a religious system. For example, if you look thoroughly through the Bible, there is no place where any of the individual writings claim to be a part of a larger religious book. They were just writings or letters, many were just written to particular people. It was only later when some men came along and bound them into a book and called that book (Bible) as sacred. That was not the original intent of the original authors.

 

Where the problems come in is that men come in and try to use those writings and added a bunch of rhetoric and doctrine to try to control other people. When the men came in and called the book the "Word of God" they made it into an idol. I know from experience because the Bible was an idol in my life when I was younger. I read and memorized it a lot. I even went to a 2 week Bible memory camp, where we memorized something like (outlines of) 72 chapters of the Bible. I continued to memorize afterword had something like 140 chapters memorized. The main thing I got from all of that was, a lot of PRIDE in how much I thought I knew. Did it change the way I lived my life? No!

 

In this life we all begin life a babies, who are only concerned with ourselves and our wants. Hopefully, as we grow up we learn to also consider and value the needs of others. Christianity says that we are all born in sin, and stay in sin our whole lives, unless we are one of the chosen who "accept Jesus as our savior" Then we become righteous, not because of what we have done but because of what Jesus did for us, dying for our sins and then end up in heaven. (We either accept that or go to be tormented in hell for eternity)

 

In my spiritual journey (through the counselors and other) the whole concept of heaven and hell, Satan, demons, Holy Spirit and sin all dissolved. Now, they didn't all go a way at once, but gradually over a period of some years. Now, with all of that  gone, what do we have left? For one thing, instead of going from sin to righteousness, we go from immaturity to maturity. Now that makes a lot more sense to me. When we are very young we have very immature behaviors and are very self-centered. Hopefully, with time and proper instruction we grown up and mature into fully functioning compassionate, responsible, loving, and caring human beings. You know what, with the threat of hell gone, and with the scapegoat of Satan gone, what do we have. We each person being responsible for their own behavior. No more blaming it on Satan. That again makes sense to me.

 

In reality, I think that we can learn to live healthy, responsible, compassionate, loving lives from many different sources. Living this way doesn't some automatically. Some people are fortunate enough to have had good parents, some of us have had counselors and other authorities to guide us down the path towards maturity.

 

Best Wishes,

Stephen5

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