Fweethawt Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 But not probable... Ha-ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justus Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 LOL, yeah like the blind seeing, what a big fat lie.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjn Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 You really think a Youtube-link is gonna turn an atheist-infested cesspit around? What's your point anyway? Their eyes were cured by medicinal science, not God. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 13, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted January 13, 2016 LOL, yeah like the blind seeing, what a big fat lie.... I don't get your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjn Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Me neither. I guess he's implying that since modern medicine can cure some forms of blindness, well then it's not impossible that big J did it as well! In other words, Jesus was an opthalmologist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 LOL, yeah like the blind seeing, what a big fat lie.... I don't get your point. Modern medicine is a miracle! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 The answer is no. Here is a good explanation why: Selected from: http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=1240 Both Christians and atheists generally have assumed that if the God depicted in the Bible exists, He can do anything—since He is represented as being all-powerful. However, this assumption is incorrect. The Bible does not claim that the omnipotence of God implies that He can do anything and everything. In reality, “omnipotence” does not, and cannot, apply to that which does not lend itself to power. Skeptics and atheists have posed queries that they feel nullify the notion of omnipotence, thereby demonstrating the nonexistence of God. For example, “Can God create a boulder so large that He, Himself, cannot lift it?” Separate and apart from the fact that God is not, Himself, physical, and that He created the entire physical Universe, though He is metaphysical and transcendent of the Universe, the question is a conceptual absurdity. It’s like asking, “Can God create a round square or a four-sided triangle?” No, He cannot—but not for the reasons implied by the atheist: that He does not exist or that He is not omnipotent. Rather, it is because the question is, itself, self-contradictory and incoherent. It is nonsensical terminology. Rather than saying God cannot do such things, it would be more in harmony with the truth to say simply that such things cannot be done at all! God is infinite in power, but power meaningfully relates only to what can be done, to what is possible of accomplishment—not to what is impossible! It is absurd to speak of any power (even infinite power) being able to do what simply cannot be done. Logical absurdities do not lend themselves to being accomplished, and so, are not subject to power, not even to infinite power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duderonomy Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 It sounds like Ironhorse is telling us (with someone else's words, of course) that there were already rules in place when God came along and they cannot be broken. So all things aren't possible with God. I wonder who or what made those rules? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 13, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted January 13, 2016 What good is a deity who has to follow rules like everyone else? Take me to the one who decides what's possible, please. But seriously, folks..... what about the miracles and promises found in the Bible? Is restoring a limb more impossible than raising from the dead or creating a universe from nothing? Many animals do grow new limbs and we are almost ready to grow them in a lab, so it's not impossible at all. The part about moving mountains, does that refer to the miracle of the bulldozer? Because moving a mountain by magic would be as impossible as growing a new limb. Sounds like apologetic obfuscation........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 The Bible does not claim that the omnipotence of God implies that He can do anything and everything. But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Matthew 19:26 So jesus was lying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 LOL, yeah like the blind seeing, what a big fat lie.... They were cured by an eye operation, not a mythological character who spit on their eyes and laid his hands on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 SInce christians can do the same works as jesus promised they could, how come christians aren't hanging outside optometrists offices and offering to fix their eyesight for free by spitting on their eyes and laying their hands on them? Or, if there is some dry dirt close by, they could spit on the dirt and make mud then rub that on their eyes too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Rather than saying God cannot do such things, it would be more in harmony with the truth to say simply that such things cannot be done at all! God is infinite in power, but power meaningfully relates only to what can be done, to what is possible of accomplishment—not to what is impossible! It is absurd to speak of any power (even infinite power) being able to do what simply cannot be done. Logical absurdities do not lend themselves to being accomplished, and so, are not subject to power, not even to infinite power. With mental acrobatics such as these I am infinity powerful as defined by what is possible. Does that mean God is as powerful as I am? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Furball Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Does that mean God is as powerful as I am? apparently so 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 John 14:12, allegedly said by Jesus: "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father." So we can feed 5,000 with a few loafs and fish? We can heal the blind and lame and cure leprosy? We can bring our dead friends back to life? Jesus allegedly said we could, if we believed in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 John 14:12, allegedly said by Jesus: "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father." So we can feed 5,000 with a few loafs and fish? We can heal the blind and lame and cure leprosy? We can bring our dead friends back to life? Jesus allegedly said we could, if we believed in him. The Bible can never be wrong so this proves that nobody really believes in Jesus. amiright? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 John 14:12, allegedly said by Jesus: "Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father." So we can feed 5,000 with a few loafs and fish? We can heal the blind and lame and cure leprosy? We can bring our dead friends back to life? Jesus allegedly said we could, if we believed in him. Charismatic teachers and those who follow them take this verse to validate their teaching. They see it as a proof text for the notion that present-day believers can perform miraculous signs and wonders—even more spectacular than Jesus Himself. If that is what the verse means, why doesn’t Benny Hinn walk on water, show us a great miracle. Better yet, show us one greater than Jesus. If this is the correct interpretation, then the Christian faith is not true. The gross error they make is by saying “works” Jesus means miracles. That is not what the text says. Jesus is referring to their work as evangelist and spreading the Word, not his miracles. And they did, they reached far more people with the message and writings than Jesus. Billy Graham has told millions the good news of Jesus. This is the meaning of John 14:2. Note: During that lives God did give the disciples temporary gifts of the Spirit. Peter raising the dead is one example, speaking in tongues another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 14, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted January 14, 2016 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14 Fail and fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14 Fail and fail. I understand why you think it fails and it does fail if this is used like a blank check to ask for anything and expect any request to be fulfilled. It just cannot be read as a magical verse to have all our dreams come true. If I believed that, I would also have to say my Christian faith failed and Jesus lied. If God had to answer every request he was given in the name of Jesus, the world would be even more chaotic. The film Bruce Almighty gave some examples of how such unlimited power could be used in foolish ways. "Whatever you ask in my name," Jesus said, "I will do it" (John 14:13). In my name is the key to understanding what Jesus meant. The request must be in line with Gods will. "And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." verse 13 Even Jesus as he faced the cross made a request that was turned down: “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” John 22:42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 It's not wanting magic and our own dreams coming true. It's about wanting to actually help people with REAL problems -- blindness and deafness and cancer and babies dying of starvation. I heard a preacher on the radio the other day claiming that he had healed two women by hugging them and praying over them -- healed them of CANCER. That would be wonderful if true. But why was this preacher stopping at these two women if he had harnessed this power he claimed to BECAUSE OF HIS BELIEF IN GOD (his words)? Why was he not volunteering at an oncology ward, hugging and praying over anybody that would let him? Having watched several people die slowly and painfully of cancer, I would happily do what I could to help them either recover or die as quickly and painlessly as possible. There is nothing redemptive and holy in the final pain of cancer. There is a confused mind unable to make a coherent sentence. There is moaning. There is begging for relief. There is uncontrolled urine and shit that the person is still aware of but has no control of. I have heard other preachers say that this time close to death is a time for the person to make amends with family and say deep meaningful things. I call bullshit. The people I have sat with did NOT do this. They have moaned, begged, talked and sang incoherently (that's actually creepy and quite haunting to me, and nothing but depressing, remembering random things my dad said and sang before he died). They have shit themselves and had enough awareness to be embarrassed by it, but no ability to do anything about it. Ironhorse, do you not believe that that preacher actually healed those two women of cancer? Obviously, you don't know him and didn't hear his story. But do you believe it was possible? The preacher talked about the two women, talked about their cancer, explained that he went to them (two different women on two different occasions) and prayed with them and hugged them, and they were HEALED because of HIS BELIEF, given to him by Jesus (the preacher's claim). Why would he be allowed to heal these two women, but not others in the hospital? Why was it within god's will to have these two women healed, but not other women or children or men who could still have years ahead of them and possibly great things in their lives? I personally don't think the preacher healed them. I think they were either healed by doctors, or went into remission. But why would god choose to heal two random people and not others that are sincerely prayed over? Especially children? The bible, and people who preach it, set up false hopes and claims, then say "you don't have enough faith" or other shit like "jesus actually meant you could still only do whatever was in god's will OR you can convert people but not actually rescue them from devastating cancer or a starving baby." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Thanks for taking the time to explain John's gospel to us, Ironhorse. Now, if you could just take the time to post that skeptical appraisal of your faith... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Thanks for taking the time to explain John's gospel to us, Ironhorse. Now, if you could just take the time to post that skeptical appraisal of your faith... Thank you bornagainathiest. What did you think of the explanation? I'm not asking if you agreed with it, but do you think I, at least, presented the alternate view well? As I have said before, I have tried to answer your question about a skeptical appraisal of my faith. You have never accepted anything I have posted regarding your question. I am however, at present, working on an essay of how I took a skeptic's view of the Christian faith. and still found it the belief system I was going to accept for my life. I only have an outline and a first draft so far. I will post as a new thread as soon as I get to a final copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted January 15, 2016 Super Moderator Share Posted January 15, 2016 Wow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justus Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 What did you think of the explanation? I'm not asking if you agreed with it, but do you think I, at least, presented the alternate view well? Considering the fact that BAA doesn't believe in scientific principles, then I'll help you with your skeptical analysis. Do you believe that if Jesus said that he could cause water to freeze solid without exposing the water to air having a temperature 32 degrees or less that he could cause it to freeze? If you say 'yes' then I would say you definitely have faith. Do you think BAA can prove that water can't freeze unless it is exposed to air temperature of 32 degrees or less. If you say 'yes' then I would say you definitely have faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted January 15, 2016 Share Posted January 15, 2016 Thanks for taking the time to explain John's gospel to us, Ironhorse. Now, if you could just take the time to post that skeptical appraisal of your faith... Thank you bornagainathiest. What did you think of the explanation? I'm not asking if you agreed with it, but do you think I, at least, presented the alternate view well? As I have said before, I have tried to answer your question about a skeptical appraisal of my faith. You have never accepted anything I have posted regarding your question. Because you've never presented the appraisal you said already existed. (see below) I am however, at present, working on an essay of how I took a skeptic's view of the Christian faith. and still found it the belief system I was going to accept for my life. I only have an outline and a first draft so far. I will post as a new thread as soon as I get to a final copy. The salient point you seem to be missing is this, Ironhorse. You claimed that you have already made a skeptical appraisal of your faith and had taken years over it. It's this already-existing appraisal that I've been asking you to present for many months now. Not the new one that you're currently embarking on. Do you see the problem? If, when you made the claim, you had this appraisal to hand, why are now starting on a new one? If you didn't have a physical copy to hand and it only existed in your mind, then were you really claiming that you've got years and years worth of complex information stored in your mind? Information which you hadn't committed to paper or some other kind of physical record? That claim can't really be tested and verified by anyone, can it? Anyone can claim that they've done something and it's all stored up in their mind, where nobody else can see it. Such a claim is completely unsupported by any evidence that can be verified by anyone else. It can only be accepted by faith. So, last year, when you said that you'd taken years skeptically appraising your faith - were you then asking us to accept what you said on faith...? Or did your skeptical appraisal exist in a form that others could have verified - at that time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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