Question: Why Did You Leave

[Margee]

I'm a pastor who gave up on God. 

 

I look forward to reading your replies.

 

Welcome to Ex-c GuyGone. I often wonder how many other pastors are out their preaching 'the word' and not believing  and can't leave because of so many factors including the fact that pastoring has been your job for so long. I Hope you are doing OK. It was really hard for me being a fundamentalist. I guess the best way to describe how I felt is for you to read my 'Please Forgive Me' letter that I wrote to god one night, five years ago. I'm glad you are here with us. You have people here who totally understand what you are going through. Looking forward to hearing more from you.

 

Thank you so much for sharing your story with us.

 

(hug)

 

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/44259-please-forgive-me/page-1#.Vp5FtvkrKUk

[LifeCycle]

My entire life I felt deserted. My father left me at two months. I never met him or heard from him. I was the kid without a father in most of my circles of friends. I went to church and was told God was my true father but that never really cut it for me. God didn't do what other fathers did. He was just as absent as my real dad. Regardless, I still needed religion (or I thought) to help me through and to give me hope that this life I'm living would not be my only one. It gave me an outlet. Activites, people that I felt genuinely cared about me and friendship. Those things are what kept me a believer... They were largely distractions from the questions that made me uncomfortable. Fast-forward to adulthood and all my friends going their separate ways. I continued my religious path in the church for about 15 years and developed new friendships and found new churches but the questions remained. I finally faced them. Honestly, it took me a year to lose my faith. in 2011 I started researching hell, free will, belief, the injustice of life and the historical Jesus... By August of 2012 I no longer believed. I was no longer convinced and came tot he realization that my faith had abandoned me. Like I recently said in a FB post on the subject... It wasn't a decision to choose non-belief (I'm not entirely sure that's possible anyway). It was a realization that I no longer believed. 

[GuyGone]

Lifecycle: It's interesting how often our view of God is colored by our view of our fathers.  In the church, this is seen as something to get past.  But maybe it's just to be expected.  If we want there to be a God but he's not really there, then we need a reference point for him.

 

I'm not sure we choose to believe much.  We choose what information to pay attention to and at some point we "believe" something, but it's really the point where all that information comes together.  Take global warming; some people believe it is true in spite of the pause and the poor correlation with the models.  Other people believe it's false in spite of ice pack changes and sea level changes.  Nobody on either side can just decide to change their belief, a change has to be based on something.  Evidence for the current belief is overwhelmed by evidence for the other.  Either a lot of little evidences or a few really big ones; once the evidence is there and accepted, the belief changes.

 

I used to work with a guy who would argue vehemently over technical things where he was just wrong.  He wouldn't change his mind until he had made it his idea, and then it was OK. Even when the math just didn't support his position, he wouldn't let go.  He got into an emotional argument once at lunch over whether it was possible to build a sonar fish finder.  I pointed out that my dad had one on his boat.  Another guy pointed out that he himself had one.  This guy just wouldn't back down.  That's kind of an extreme example, but to a lesser extent, I think it's how we usually change a belief (or don't).  The more convinced we are, the more we are willing to discount contrary evidence.  That's why I said earlier that nobody is argued into or out of faith. Arguments might be part of the equation, but it isn't an argument that makes people start or stop believing, it's when they are ready to look past the confirmation bias.  When they are able to move it out of the emotional realm into a more objective place.

[GuyGone]

Margee: I read your letter.  It's a lot like what I put in my book, in the journal entries.  I asked a lot of the same questions.  I do think that Thomas gets a bad rap, though.  If you think about it, Thomas didn't ask for anything that the other disciples didn't already have.  He was just being pragmatic. If someone today said that they have a friend who was dead, about to be buried, and then was resurrected, the pragmatic among us would be saying "I'd like to see the medical records, please".  That's all Thomas did.  He wasn't a doubter except as compared to the gullible.  He wanted the same evidence the other disciples had.  Because for all our assumptions about people then, they weren't stupid.  They knew that people didn't just rise from the dead.  In fact, one thread that runs throughout the Bible is that God provides sufficient evidence for belief for those who are willing to believe.  But there seem to be so many stories (including mine) about people who didn't want to lose their faith but found it slipping away just as you describe.  You could maybe see God rejecting people who reject him.  But why reject people who are trying to find him?

 

As for Job, the first two chapters of Job are one of the best arguments against God.  Or at least against a God you can trust.  Analyzing that (again, there is a detailed description in the book) put a lot of distance between me and faith.  I know, it probably sounds like I'm selling the book.  Not.  Just describing at a high level what I went through in processing all this; the book is just where it all ended up because I wanted to describe it for people who were on a parallel path.  I knew for a long time that there were things in the Bible that weren't good for my faith.  But when I started moving away, I quit glossing over them and started paying attention to them.

[dask]

I'm in the process of deconvering, I can't seem to put my faith in christianity anymore, there are some solid walls that won't let me,but I wish I could beleive,mainly because of the comfort it gave me. I used to be a strong beleiver, until I read the bible. Then I realized what christians were telling me is not what is in the bible. After reading the bible, it seemed to me everyone is going to hell. It seems impossible to make it to heaven, according to the bible. I then realized that the relationship I had with God was not real. I could not be thankful to a god who is going to send all my loved ones to hell. So I took a step back and started to listen to the arguments against christianity. Atheism makes the most sense to me, but I kind of wish I never read the bible, I wish what I beleived before reading the bible was true. It's been about 4 months since I started doubting for the first time ever, I am 29 years old. This has been so difficult for me. I'm writting a small letter to post so that everyone can understand my story better, I will post it up in my profile soon. It was one big event that knocked away my faith in christianity. And I'm still suffering quite a bit.

[dask]

I read through the old testament ok, it was the new testament that kicked my butt.

[dask]

I don't understand why this has been so difficult for me.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I'm in the process of deconvering, I can't seem to put my faith in christianity anymore, there are some solid walls that won't let me,but I wish I could beleive,mainly because of the comfort it gave me. I used to be a strong beleiver, until I read the bible. Then I realized what christians were telling me is not what is in the bible. After reading the bible, it seemed to me everyone is going to hell. It seems impossible to make it to heaven, according to the bible. I then realized that the relationship I had with God was not real. I could not be thankful to a god who is going to send all my loved ones to hell. So I took a step back and started to listen to the arguments against christianity. Atheism makes the most sense to me, but I kind of wish I never read the bible, I wish what I beleived before reading the bible was true. It's been about 4 months since I started doubting for the first time ever, I am 29 years old. This has been so difficult for me. I'm writting a small letter to post so that everyone can understand my story better, I will post it up in my profile soon. It was one big event that knocked away my faith in christianity. And I'm still suffering quite a bit.

 

I was also 29 when I first started doubting, and it was also because of problems in the Bible.

 

I don't understand why this has been so difficult for me.

 

Unfortunately, that's pretty normal for someone starting to realize that they'd been deceived for their whole lives. I had a really rough time as well, going through a period of depression where every night when I went to bed, I honestly didn't care whether I woke up the next morning or not. I was eventually able to move past it; most do, and you probably will too, but it will take some time.

 

I wish you the best as you work through all of this.

[GuyGone]

Dask: Read some of the posts by other people, you will probably find a lot of parallels with your situation.  That's why I wrote my book that I published on Amazon - as a way for people who were wrestling with the same things I was to see that they aren't alone.  I felt pretty alone through the process.  I was determined not to take any of my Christian friends away from their faith, and being a pastor, there weren't many people I could talk to.  I discussed bits and pieces with different people, but I didn't tell the entire story to anyone until the book was done.  Even my wife didn't know everything until she read the book.

 

There are a few people on this forum that have described their interactions with God, with relatives, with their own struggles and I suspect yours will be similar.  But like I described in my story, it's really like a divorce or something; you wrestle with what was truth and what was lies until you are able to walk away.  But if you are like me, you will go back and forth a lot, wanting it to be true, before finally deciding it isn't.

[amateur]

I was raised by agnostic parents.  They did take us to church, a liberal Methodist church. My mom's only words on religion were, "Don't take religion too seriously."  My dad told us that people invented religion to answer the big questions of life:  why are we here?, what happens after we die?, why do good people suffer?, etc.  So I always believed that.

 

But I had a bigger question, "Why have all people of all times in all areas come up with some concept of god(s)?  Why so similar a concept with a multitude of different details?"  

 

I always had questions about the bible; i.e., How was Noah's Ark actually possible?  Church and religious books never answered the questions at all.  Way too many words with no good content.

 

Then I read a book by Julian Jaynes, "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind," and that answered my big question and made my little questions moot.  There was never any god(s) but an actual physical reason for why people thought they heard ancestors or dead kings or god(s).  After I read that book, I was done with religion of any type.

[dask]

Thanks for your understanding feedback. I do seem to go back and forth guygone I wish there was a heaven that was as easy and nice as some pastors make it sound. I just don't know how anyone can read the new testament and be ok with what it says, I had a different idea of what it said, but once I read the bible cover to cover, I was like WTF, this has to be a nightmare and I'm going to wake up soon. I instantly went from a strong beleiver, where I thought my family and I were going to make it to heaven, to feeling if this is true, everyone I know is going to hell. Seems like the more you devout yourself to Jesus the higher your punishment if you do wrong. Also mathew 5:32 is a big wall which does not let me call the bible the word of God, cause I seen happy remarried couples divorce just because of this passage. They say there is freedom in Jesus, but to me it seems like he is super strict about everything,and one of the worst thing about it is that the rich young man will be getting sent next to Hitler because he didn't sell everything he owned and sell it to the poor. I seen people give up innocent hobbies because of what the bible says. They think that these innocent hobbies like building model airplanes will send them to hell. And on top of all this Jesus is the one who decides who goes to hell, this is when I realized I can't give the bible to anyone, to say it will be a helpful thing. I just thought the new testament would be all about love, peace and joy, luke so many people make it seem, but after reading it, seems to me is all about fear and obey, or burn.

[GuyGone]

I guess I didn't wrestle as much with the fear part, although I did a little.  I know there are strains of Christianity that  expect or even demand increasing asceticism. As if the more you endure or suffer, the more spiritual you are.  But I didn't subscribe to that.  The closest I came was feeling that if I just did a little more, maybe God would respond.  But then I thought about how much I had done already with no response and decided that one more change, sacrifice, or self-denial wasn't likely to be any different.  I wonder how many people who do give more, sacrifice more, place increasing artificial restrictions on themselves, or give up arbitrary things are really trying to get God to respond.  I've even wondered how often when we do things in church such as taking big "leaps of faith" are an attempt to force God's hand.  Like a kid jumping off a sofa while saying "catch me".

[dask]

Well the story of mother theresa, is interesting, I don't know if you read about her struggle with faith for the last 20 years of her life.

[mymistake]

All these replies make me think of another question: What was the hardest thing about leaving?   

 

 

It's a toss up between the fear of burning in hell (as per my brainwashing) and the awkwardness of trying to create new ways to cope with life.  I was so use to having rituals and trusting in God that it took me a while to figure out how to live any other way.

[dask]

 

All these replies make me think of another question: What was the hardest thing about leaving?

 

It's a toss up between the fear of burning in hell (as per my brainwashing) and the awkwardness of trying to create new ways to cope with life. I was so use to having rituals and trusting in God that it took me a while to figure out how to live any other way.

I'm having trouble with this too, did you ever find out a new way to cope with life? If so how and what was the change?

[dask]

I guess I didn't wrestle as much with the fear part, although I did a little. I know there are strains of Christianity that expect or even demand increasing asceticism. As if the more you endure or suffer, the more spiritual you are. But I didn't subscribe to that. The closest I came was feeling that if I just did a little more, maybe God would respond. But then I thought about how much I had done already with no response and decided that one more change, sacrifice, or self-denial wasn't likely to be any different. I wonder how many people who do give more, sacrifice more, place increasing artificial restrictions on themselves, or give up arbitrary things are really trying to get God to respond. I've even wondered how often when we do things in church such as taking big "leaps of faith" are an attempt to force God's hand. Like a kid jumping off a sofa while saying "catch me".

I did not have an issue with the church, the fear came from reading the bible specially the new testament. And it was from my own interpretation. So I don't see how anyone will ever be able to give me a different interpretation.

[GuyGone]

dask: "a new way to cope with life"

 

I actually devoted a chapter in the book to that.  To summarize, when people change from Christianity to atheism/agnosticism, they often want to reject the Bible completely as if there is nothing of value there.  But as I said in an earlier post, the Bible wasn't written by idiots.  A lot of what is there, especially in the "wisdom" literature is very applicable today because it is based on principles of human nature that haven't changed.  The writers of the Bible lived in a religious context, but they weren't blind to how people are.  Here's what I decided:

 

Anger: we should avoid being controlled and consumed by anger.  Anger at injustice or a physical threat or mistreatment of one person by another is justified.  A life that is controlled by anger or bitterness is a recipe for misery.  When we as a society let the angry, bitter people set the agenda, we end up with a dysfunctional society.  Just look at ISIS or for that matter, any country where Sharia law governs the courts.  I've seen people who lived with bitterness, nurtured it, never let go of it, and reached the end of their life.  It's not a good way to go out.  They alienated everyone around them.  At least, everyone who was balanced and clear-headed.

 

Integrity: Honest with yourself and others.  Not the pretend honesty of the person who constantly finds fault and then claims to "call it like I see it".  I mean doing what you say you will do, keeping commitments, not using or deceiving others for personal gain.

 

The golden rule: Treat others as you would like to be treated.  Treat them at least as decently as they treat you.  Maybe treat everyone one notch better than they treat you.  If they treat you badly, treat them less badly (keeping safety in  mind, of course).  If they treat you well, treat them a tiny bit  better.

 

Action: What you say you believe or what you say you want is, in most cases, much less important that what you are willing to do about it.  If you believe that people need help, don't just talk about somebody needs to do something, go do something. An example I used in the book is if your neighbor has one leg in a cast, mow the lawn for him/her every couple of weeks so they don't get a fine from the city.  It's not a lifetime commitment, it's just helping where you can, when you can, because you can.  Nobody can carry the weight of the world, but almost everybody can do something.

 

What you do defines who you are: It isn't having good intentions or agreeing with popular opinions.  It's what you do.  That's what matters.  Be intentional about choosing well.  I've done enough pastoral counseling to know that bad choices play out, eventually.  The saddest cases are people who can't see the connection.  I remember one person who could list everything that their anger had cost them (marriage, job, relationships, and some things that I can't mention here) but they could not admit they had an anger problem.  Until they can, they'll never get past that point.

 

Don't love violence: This isn't about letting ISIS have whatever they want or letting the Axis powers take over the world in World War 2. Those things require a violent response to keep evil from winning.  The police carry guns because sometimes they are needed.  This isn't about some utopian view of a world without violence, something that won't be possible as long as there are selfish people. This is about people who encourage violent or hate-filled responses to whatever they dislike.  People who are always looking for mistreatment and then want to hurt whoever mistreated them.  A general principle is that if you are determined to find mistreatment, discrimination, and offense, you are guaranteed to find it.  You will find it where it and you will find it where it isn't.  Because you will see it everywhere you look.

 

That's obviously all abbreviated, but if we structured a society like that, we'd have a good basis for treating good people well, and ignoring or marginalizing those who would undermine everything positive.  And we as individuals would be moving toward a well-adjusted, mature, balanced way of life.

 

What do you think?

[dask]

Yeah, that's pretty good. I think the most difficult part for me lately, would be the fact that I can't pray for loved ones anymore. And prayer used to give me a lot of comfort, when it came to loved ones, it kept me sane.

[GuyGone]

What was it about prayer that benefitted you?  Was it believing that you were helping them?  Was it something else?

 

I don't know if your responses to prayer are related to dysfunction in your family.  I have a relative who is, let's say, not given to habitually making good choices.  I don't disassociate from this relative, but I also know not to trust them in certain things.  They are who they are, and unless something changes on the inside, the behaviors won't change either.  Sometimes recognizing that lets you avoid some drama.  If you aren't expecting them to be someone other than who they are, then you are less likely to be disappointed.

 

Really there is nothing wrong with praying for others.  The focus may help you decide how you can  help with action, and even if nobody is listening, it doesn't hurt anything.  Sometimes when we move away from belief in God, we want to discard anything that even looks like Christianity.  We want to claim the Bible has nothing to offer and that prayer is useless.  But a lot of religious traditions have some version of prayer (even if they call it meditation).  If thinking through how you can help or even just better understand your loved ones is beneficial, it doesn't matter whether you call it prayer or give it some other name.  This is especially true if you are the kind of person who process things externally, by talking.  Even if you're talking to yourself, you are processing the things you know and the things you want for them. 

[dask]

I mean, I prayed for my loved one's health and lives, I know it doesn't change anything, but I used to beleive even if something bad happened, it was all of part of God's plan. And it somehow gave me comfort. I wish I beleived what used to beleive about God before I read the bible, I kind of wish I never read the bible, or that the bible was more digestable, but now that I know what the bible says, it makes me feel there is no God, or if there is, he won't have any of my prayers. So now I catch myself praying for them then I have to stop myself, when that happens I feel horrible, and I'm not too sure why.

[dask]

Maybe I feel bad, because I know it's not all part of a special plan, and because death and pain is inevitable.

[Lycorth]

I mean, I prayed for my loved one's health and lives, I know it doesn't change anything, but I used to beleive even if something bad happened, it was all of part of God's plan. And it somehow gave me comfort. I wish I beleived what used to beleive about God before I read the bible, I kind of wish I never read the bible, or that the bible was more digestable, but now that I know what the bible says, it makes me feel there is no God, or if there is, he won't have any of my prayers. So now I catch myself praying for them then I have to stop myself, when that happens I feel horrible, and I'm not too sure why.

 

It's guilt - as Christians, we're told time and again that we have to pray and have to believe and have to do this and that, because it's the will of God that we do so. We're taught that to deviate in the slightest is a sin, that it's ungrateful to God for the sacrifice of Jesus, and that we're being evil. Guilt is powerful, and is an effective way to get us to keep ourselves in line, filling the pews and the collection plates.

 

Don't listen to the guilt

[dask]

Thanks I never thought about it that way. I will think about that. Last night wrestling with my thoughts I made a very small prayer, I told God, that if he is real and that I need to know something, to reveal it to me in my dream, and I won't take just any dream it has to be vivid and unarguable. I basically left the responsibility of my "salvation" in his "hands", I did not get such dream, but it did clear my mind a tad bit. Still it feels I have a long way to go before I can experience true joy again. Like a thread here says " christianity is killing me"

 

Thanks for the feedback:)

[dask]

I'm just sharing this to give you an idea of how difficult all this has been for me. But to be clear about something,I went from beleiving the bible is a good book to knowing that I wasn't able to promote the bible instantly after realizing it was causing remarried couples to divorce and causing divorced peopleto remain single, cause of what the bible says. That's when I started to realize I could no longer consider myself a christian.

[GuyGone]

Well, yes, but be careful not to fall into the trap of judging a religion or philosophy only by the people who practice it poorly or who take it to extremes.  Unless that makes up a significant number of adherents.  I would say that 99.999% or more of pastors and Christians would not say that people have to divorce because some previous divorce was immoral.  Don't fall into the trap of all-or-nothing thinking.

 

Not trying to reconvert you, just suggesting that you be sure you aren't viewing everything you believed through the lens of the most extreme practitioners.  That can lead to undeserved resentment and bitterness.