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Goodbye Jesus

What Do You Think About Death.


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Death is inevitable.  The best we can do is say "not today".  I expect after death it's exactly like the time before you were born.  You experience nothing.

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I think it's great. Without it I wouldn't have had my hamburger today.  

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I think it's great. Without it I wouldn't have had my hamburger today.

ha, exactly. If you want to be a little more introspective, that would be ok as well.

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I think it's great. Without it I wouldn't have had my hamburger today.

ha, exactly. If you want to be a little more introspective, that would be ok as well.

 

I will be if you could be just a wee more specific.

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Even though Christianity supposedly alleviates the fear of death, with a promise of a blissful afterlife, my experience indicates just the opposite. The promise of salvation is ambiguous at best. For every verse in the Bible that promises salvation, other verses can be found that cast doubt on exactly who might qualify.

 

Christians fear hell, and therefore death, far more than they desire heaven. They claim assurance but clearly most are anything but certain of their eternal destiny.

 

As a non-believer I am no longer concerned about death. It is simply the end of life. It is pretty much like going to sleep, but you don't wake up. What do we worry about when we're asleep? Nothing, absolutely nothing. No pain, no fear, no concerns, just blissful silence & eternal peace.

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Just spent holding my uncles hand for about four hours while he died. I had my own notions of what I thought might be happening within his mind, but they were just my notions through Christian training. I guess the one thing I realized was it was something that none of us can really control. When it happens, there is not much that can be done. So I'm not sure what to think about death anymore other than having gone through this from an adult's perspective, I'm not near as fearful.

 

From my own convoluted perspective, it seems life, our reality, is almost purposeful.....we are pushed in and lead out.

 

Long story short, I don't know, but am glad I went through the process. Glad I was there for him. No one should have to die alone.

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I hope this doesn't come out offensive or anything (I'm trying to be considerate, rational, and honest when typing this with only my best attempt at sincerity, compassion, and all that good stuff).

 

I view death as pure unadulterated glory. It is freedom, liberation. It is victory against tyranny. It is righteous rage. To me, it is the bite of a perfect wine. It is above all, fair, and equal. Hades is the most honorable judge, truly. And better Hades than Zeus. Death I think about always. I try to think about it in the morning, during my lunch, at night before bed. I think about it before kissing my girlfriend, and think about it as I go to work. I try to think about death as often as I can.

 

In my mind I say goodbye to everyone and everything I know. I call into question everything I do, and if I did an honorable and decent job with it. No man is perfect, but was I good in my own time? Did I do the right thing? Am I going to die an honorable and worthy death? My salvation or redemption is in making my death meaningful. Will the world do good by me? I sit down and think hard on this. Will humanity devolve to rabbits, or will it go into outer space? Will it destroy the planet and fight to the last scrap, or will future generations have untold prosperity? I can't be there to see it.... But I feel impelled to work towards that for their sake.

 

Eventually everyone who ever knew me will die of their own accord. Eventually the tomb bearing my name will fade, and I will truly be no more in every capacity. I know it is truly tragic. Yet feeling such deep emotion at that, I can't help but also be ennobled by it. It is perhaps the most beautiful, emotional, meaningful, and heavenly thing in all creation. Looking at my history, I think of my friends. In a lot of ways the memories are sweeter than the actual events. There is glory, duty, honor, good times and bad. Heroes and villains. I see the decaying ruins of long lost civilizations on my travels to Europe. I see the haunting ruins of what the Romans built to last forever. And yet the fact it had such a glorious ending.... It moves me to emotions I cannot experience any other way but by the unimpeachable display of decay and ruin. For to decay and ruin, there had to be greatness. I feel nothing at the sight of a beautiful skyscraper adorned in windows and lights. But to see an old monastery covered in vines and parts missing here and there..... Nothing matters except that one feeling I get. Travelling to an old battlefield or using an old aqueduct..... I don't want there to be a forever. In infinity, that one moment becomes hopelessly meaningless to me.

 

One of my friends died when I will still in high school. I didn't cry, although everyone else was. She was a beautiful person and I was honored to have known them. And I won't try to elucidate a reason for why people cried, or why I didn't, or how I felt. All I can honestly say is I felt that their beauty is timeless because it had a lifetime, and that she added to the world in a way that even if life was short, she did so much in to make it glorious and honorable.

 

I think about how I never met my grandpas. They both died when my parents were young adults.... I hear they were great people. One was a good Lutheran gent and a great farmer. The other was apatheist and was quiet, but perhaps the most honorable man I wish I could've known. In my heart, the inspire in my a sense of grandiose glory and emotions of duty, kinship, and a tradition worth hanging on to. I cannot disrespect their integrity by purposefully doing bad. To do so would be to kill myself. It would be to kill the sweet songbird that sings you softly to sleep every night. It would be to poison the lightning bugs that gently float you to sleep in awe and peace. They are the closest I'll ever admit to having as guardian angels. They aren't here physically pulling me from evil. Their integrity, honor, duty, justice, and basic goodness gives me the code, the DNA to the good life, for me to live here and now. The world is crazy and doesn't make sense, but their lives, their honor.... that gives me all I need to make this a life worth living. 

 

So I guess at the end of the day, before I sign off and go to bed... Death to me is sleeping with me. The beautiful queen of the night, calling me home, waiting for my return with the patience of Penelope for her dear Odysseus. To me, she is the most beautiful woman. She loves me truly and wants the best for me and from me. She wants my children to succeed, and my love to last till long after I am gone. She loves me. And I love her.

 

Here's the songs I listen to when I'm more introspective about death:

 

Here's ones I listen to when I'm more upbeat about it:

 

And here's a few quotes I find meaningful about death:

 

Do not go gentle into that good night
Dylan Thomas1914 - 1953

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

From: https://www.poets.org/poetsorg/poem/do-not-go-gentle-good-night

 

To fear death, my friends, is only to think ourselves wise, without being wise: for it is to think that we know what we do not know. For anything that men can tell, death may be the greatest good that can happen to them: but they fear it as if they knew quite well that it was the greatest of evils. And what is this but that shameful ignorance of thinking that we know what we do not know?

Socrates (BC 469-BC 399) Greek philosopher of Athens

 When a great man dies, for years the light he leaves behind him, lies on the paths of men.

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (1807-1882) U.S. poet.

Those who have lived a good life do not fear death, but meet it calmly, and even long for it in the face of great suffering. But those who do not have a peaceful conscience, dread death as though life means nothing but physical torment. The challenge is to live our life so that we will be prepared for death when it comes.

 

Unknown Source

The hour of departure has arrived and we go our ways; I to die, and you to live. Which is better? Only God knows.

 

Socrates (BC 469-BC 399) Greek philosopher of Athens

Every man must do two things alone; he must do his own believing and his own dying.

Martin Luther (1483-1546) German priest and scholar.

For the sword outwears its sheath, and the soul wears out the breast. And the heart must pause to breathe, and love itself have rest.

Lord Byron (1788-1824) British poet.

If a man hasn't discovered something that he will die for, he isn't fit to live.

Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968) American black leader.

The life of the dead is placed in the memory of the living.

Marcus Tulius Cicero (106-43 BC) Writer, politician and great roman orator.

Death is the wish of some, the relief of many, and the end of all.

Seneca (4 BC-65) Roman philosopher and playwright.

Good men must die, but death cannot kill their names.

Proverb

Die when I may, I want it said of me by those who knew me best, that I always plucked a thistle and planted a flower where I thought a flower would grow.

Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865) Politician. President of the United States.

Death is the liberator of him whom freedom cannot release, the physician of him whom medicine cannot cure, and the comforter of him whom time cannot console.

Charles Caleb Colton (1780-1832) British clergyman, sportsman and author.

He has outsoared the shadow of our night; envy and calumny and hate and pain, and that unrest which men miscall delight, can touch him not and torture not again; from the contagion of the world's slow stain, he is secure.

Percy Bysshe Shelley (1792-1822) English poet.

When it comes to my own turn to lay my weapons down, I shall do so with thankfulness and fatigue, and whatever be my destiny afterward, I shall be glad to lie down with my fathers in honor. It is human at least, if not divine.

Robert Louis Stevenson (1850-1895) Scottish essayist, poet and novelist.

One has to pay dearly for immortality; one has to die several times while one is still alive.

Friedrich Nietzsche (1844-1900) German-Swiss philosopher and writer.

Death is a Dialogue between, the Spirit and the Dust.

Emily Dickinson (1830-1886) American poet.

I have wrestled with death. It is the most unexciting contest you can imagine. It takes place in an impalpable grayness, with nothing underfoot, with nothing around, without spectators, without clamor, without glory, without the great desire of victory, without the great fear of defeat.

Joseph Conrad (1857-1924) British novelist.

Death is a commingling of eternity with time; in the death of a good man, eternity is seen looking through time.

Johann Wolfgang Von Goethe (1749-1832) German poet, novelist and dramatist.

 

All from:

http://en.proverbia.net/citastema.asp?tematica=295&page=1

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Jesus fuckin' christ... It's like he'd been waiting for someone to ask that question!

 

:)

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 BarnarousBill I think you spoke for me. That would be the stoic in us. I've come to totally accept death. The thing that bugs me the most is that I want to see all the future things and how humans will run the show. Then again, sometimes when i see the wars and horrible suffering, I could be ready at any time to exit. I just don't want my death to hurt..... (excuse me for being selfish)

 

 

End, what you did was very honorable. I'm so sorry for your loss my friend. Big (hug)

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BarbarousBill, you seem to be living by the maxim of "Memento Mori". Jünger and Mishima would be proud!

 

I used to share that sentiment, but lately I've become so damn anxious, I must admit that death do frighten me a bit. Not as a phenomenon in and of itself, but I don't know... like you and Margee, I'd love to see what the far future holds, and I'd hate to go prematurely.

 

I'd like to add a few lines from good ol' Havamal to your list of proverbs:

 

Deyr fé,

deyja frændr,

deyr sjálfr et sama;

ek veit einn,

at aldri deyr:

dómr um dauðan hvern.

 

 

Cattle die,

kinsmen die

you yourself die;

I know one thing

which never dies:

the judgment of a dead man's life.

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Just spent holding my uncles hand for about four hours while he died. I had my own notions of what I thought might be happening within his mind, but they were just my notions through Christian training. I guess the one thing I realized was it was something that none of us can really control. When it happens, there is not much that can be done. So I'm not sure what to think about death anymore other than having gone through this from an adult's perspective, I'm not near as fearful.

 

From my own convoluted perspective, it seems life, our reality, is almost purposeful.....we are pushed in and lead out.

 

Long story short, I don't know, but am glad I went through the process. Glad I was there for him. No one should have to die alone.

 

 

My condolences on your loss.  I'm glad you could be there for him.  That took courage and I salute you for it.

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Death is just a part of life. I stopped fearing death when I left Christianity.

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Death is just a part of life. I stopped fearing death when I left Christianity.

 

My old pagan philosophy espoused this belief as well. Life and Death are just two sides of the same coin. I only started to fear death when Christian fundamentalism invaded my OCD.

 

When the Abyss - the Oblivion of Meaninglessness - is gazing into you, say "Fuck you!", stare it down and spit right back at it.

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Title speaks for itself. Thanks.

 

Ok, I read the thread. Sorry, End.

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“Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.”

 

I view the Dylan Thomas poem as encouraging the reader to think that death is something that should be fought rather than mutely accepted.

 

I hate death. Never more so than the morning our twin daughters died. It took my wife and me a long time to recover from that loss. Death of family members and others are something we all experience in our lives more than once. It is horrific and very sad.

 

I realize that death plays a role the life cycle of this world as it now operates. All living things eventually die and in order to live, something must die. Even vegetarians have to kill their vegetables to live. 

 

As a Christian, I’m not sure how death played a part in creation before humans, all the whys of it now or death in the future world. Will I be able to go trout fishing in heaven and fry the fish by the stream on an open fire? I don’t know.

 

I would very much like to live as long as I can here, but I don't fear death. 

I have faith and hope that when I die these things will happen:

 

-My spirit will return to God and be with Christ in paradise. This is what is called the intermediate state or paradise.

 

-Upon the return of Christ my decayed physical body will be resurrected with my spirit. I will then be an eternal living soul.

 

-Earth will be created new and the New Jerusalem will be its capital.

 

-It is my hope that I will again see my daughters and loved ones again.

 

If the Christian faith is false, as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians ,  "And if our hope in Christ is only for this life, we are more to be pitied than anyone in the world."

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Death is fine.

Dying probably sucks.

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I'm not worried about being dead.

 

I am worried about dying in an embarrassing way. I strive hard not to be a Darwin Award recipient. And I also don't look forward to those I love dying because of how it will affect my life. It's all about me.

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Mark Twain wrote: "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."

 

I'm with violet and Jeff and others. It's not the result but the process that I think about. I watched my mother die, one brain cell at a time. It took ten years. And now we're watching my mother-in-law do the same thing. As Jeff said, death is fine but dying sucks.

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Just spent holding my uncles hand for about four hours while he died. I had my own notions of what I thought might be happening within his mind, but they were just my notions through Christian training. I guess the one thing I realized was it was something that none of us can really control. When it happens, there is not much that can be done. So I'm not sure what to think about death anymore other than having gone through this from an adult's perspective, I'm not near as fearful.

 

From my own convoluted perspective, it seems life, our reality, is almost purposeful.....we are pushed in and lead out.

 

Long story short, I don't know, but am glad I went through the process. Glad I was there for him. No one should have to die alone.

 

End, if I'd known why you put up the OP, I wouldn't have made the hamburger joke.  I'm sorry to hear about your uncle.

 

I don't know what goes through a person's mind when they are dying. I do wonder sometimes what will go through mine. They say as you lay there dying you don't regret what you did, you regret what you didn't do. Barring any heinous acts being on the dying person's mind, I'd agree with that.

It's not our death that counts, it's our life. I think that's why we feel so sad when someone dies. They had their one chance, and it's over.

Some of us plop out and die alone. We aren't all pushed in and led out. Our life, our reality is purposeful, not "almost purposeful" as you put it.  But there's no purpose behind it other than what we give it.  It doesn't take a Deity in your heart or a divinity degree in your head for you to know that what I just said is true.

That's as introspective as I can get right now.

 

Other than that, what Jeff said.

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Jesus fuckin' christ... It's like he'd been waiting for someone to ask that question!

 

:)

OMG! This made me laugh so hard.

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I have young children, the youngest being 4, so I don't want to die anytime soon, and the idea of leaving behind my little guy breaks my heart. Being a newly deconverted xtian makes deciding who would take care of them if we were to die difficult, but something I've actually been thinking about lately. Give me 20 years and I don't think it'll bother me as much. Of course when I'm dead I won't know or care, but thinking about my kids makes it hard right now.

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The following is symbolic and exceptionally metaphorical. It should be seen as subjective ramblings divorced from my more "falsifiable" dialogue in other threads. The exception being the last two sentences.

 

I'm not sure what to think about death. Unfortunately, as others have stated, often the journey toward death is exceptionally painful and full of suffering. I'm at a tipping point in my life where all the pain, suffering and existential angst that I so easily compartmentalised in my teens, twenties and most of my early and mid thirties have broken out of their cages so to speak. Anecdotally and without making claims, I've had to deal with a variety of emotions. There are times of complete elation and acceptance that present when I'm twenty miles into a gruelling ride up a technical mountain trail. Conversely, there are times of terror and I can just feel the spectre of death right on my heels while I pedal my bike into the dark unknown of a moonless night where only a small cone of light illuminates a path in front of me. It's as though my "monkey DNA" and my higher brain are free to engage in near mortal combat during these situations.

 

I've been lucky enough to have experiences where I've felt everything that I would call "me" melt off in an amorphous cloud of particles that merged into surrounding mountains and stars on a clear, starry night in the wilderness following a period of fasting, meditation and perhaps some "pharmaceutical" perturbation.

 

Again, I cannot make claims and I'm mostly confused when grappling with these "philosophical" questions. Perhaps, it is the limitations of a body bound to follow the principles that govern the universe? However, I do feel like I "belong" in this universe, that it is what I'm made of. Regardless of the fact that I will likely die and a day will come where I will no longer experience "existence" in this confused, conscious but glorious way, I'm comforted by knowing that as far as I understand, everything that I am will remain a part of this universe regardless of the form this matter and energy takes after my consciousness becomes all but completely irrelevant.

 

End, I'm sorry for your loss. It sucks getting older and experiencing the death of friends and family members. Best regards.

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end3 I am so sorry about the recent loss of your uncle.  That's painful.  And ironhorse, I am so very sad to hear about your twin daughters.  That sounds heartbreaking.

 

I've had a lot of experience with older, ill, terminal people dying.  My grandmother died right in front of me when I was 4, with my grandfather and father trying to help her down the walk to the car.  Many relatives died over the next decade, and my mom died when I was 18.  As an adult, I worked as a caregiver for elderly, ill people, and with some terminal clients right before they died.  With the older, terminal people it seems they all reached a point where they were somehow ready to go.  Before that point, they would express fear, anger, confusion.  One of my elderly clients told me angrily, once, "I want to go, but I'm a sissy!"  But when his time did come, he seemed much more relaxed and ready for the inevitable.

 

I have no experience with children dying, and very limited experience with people who die suddenly in accidents or sudden illness.  People under a certain age dying is tragic in all ways. 

 

Being around so many old, dying people when  I was a kid and watching my parents who of course were sad but also were very pragmatic and realistic, I find that's the way I am.  I mourned my parents when they died, and helping them out before their deaths was both an honor and a tragedy, but both reached a point where they were ready to go and I was happy to see them not be in pain any longer.  They both were terminal and passed fairly quickly, not impeded by too much medical care that prolonged their pain, for which I am grateful.

 

I never want to work as a caregiver again; it was very depressing in so many ways.  So many times at the end of a shift, I'd go out to my car and cry it out until I was able to see to drive.  I couldn't cry in front of my clients, and the nicest ones made me the saddest, of course.  I had a few wonderful conversations with a couple of clients not long before they died.  Then I'd sit in my car and cry.

 

I've never totally believed in an afterlife.  I guess when I spent some of my younger years as Born Again, I thought there would be a heaven, but with my parents being agnostic and most of my other relatives being of unknown religiosity (I'm guessing some atheist, some agnostic, some went to various churches), I was never sure what I'd encounter in heaven (and the concept of "eternity" was baffling to me as a teenager).  Would my parents or grandparents be there?  I didn't know.  I never actually knew my grandparents as people, as they were just old and ill and died before I remember even having conversations with them, so meeting them again in heaven seemed weird to me.  They're basically strangers.  As are a good number of my aunts and uncles, who were old and ill and died before I was a teenager.

 

At the multitude of funerals I attended as a child, and the family parties after, I don't remember religious talk, but lots of stories of the deceased, funny stories, good stories, and lots of talk of "you never know when your last day will be" and "enjoy today, because you don't know what tomorrow will bring."  Since that's how I grew up, that's pretty much my philosophy.  All my grandparents and my mother were very brave people who left the Old Country for opportunities in the US, and I'm grateful for their lessons in courage and fortitude.  Different relatives faced poverty, extremely difficult jobs, loss of family, and racism (immigrants have never been popular) when they came here.  I don't think any of my dead relatives are still alive somewhere.  But I have truly wonderful memories of my parents and their love and humor and common sense.

 

After working for a while with my terminal clients, and becoming depressed, I eventually came up with my Death Plan, so I could hopefully (except in case of a fatal accident or lapse into sudden coma) take charge of my own death and not have to ever be bedbound and tube fed.  That has helped me a lot in the thought of my own death.

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Guest Furball

Death is just a part of life. I stopped fearing death when I left Christianity.

Yeah that was a weird thing for me. I incessantly feared death as a christian, but never before or after. Christianity was suppose to offer peace, but it never did. How ironic that the very peace christianity offers I didn't find till I left christianity. Death is just going to sleep and never waking up again. -peace

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