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Goodbye Jesus

The Truth Does Set You Free


dangitbobby83

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(Sorry for the REALLY long story. I tend to be long winded. Also sorry for any poor grammar, misspellings and bad formatting. I don’t have the time to do a real, proper edit!)

 

I don’t really feel like my story is that special or dramatic like many others you read about deconversion. My home life wasn’t filled to the brim with Jesus, fundamentalism or church. I didn’t suffer from abuse as a child due to religion or spent my younger years off on some crazy mission trip to halfway around the world, only to see the light, lose the love of my family and be kicked out on the street. No, I think mine is quite boring. But perhaps if it helps someone else deconvert, then I suppose I should tell it. 

 

As said above, I wasn’t raised religious. Sure, my mother and father believed in God. Mom would mention it sometimes but would never go into any details. She would complain about churches, though. My parents was required to go to one as a condition of my adoption and managed to attend for a few years before finally stopping, partly due to the desire to sleep in and partly due to the way Christians seemed to negatively treat each other. Some also stemmed from questions about tithing and “why would God need my money so bad?” 

 

Being hurt in the church, she would say that her faith didn’t need the support of the church and she could worship and pray to God at home. It was enough to not indoctrinate me, but yet set the foundation for what was to come later.

 

Around the time I was 12 I began to fear hell. I remember one time seeing 666 everywhere – a price on a register or in a magazine, or the random answer to a subtraction problem on the homework – it seemed to pop up everywhere. At the young age, I took that as a “sign” I was bound for hell and I remember how much fear I had. The foundation was set even further and I was primed to become a fundamentalist with just the right trigger.

 

Shortly after I graduated high school, my grandfather became very ill. I was close to my grandfather, so believing his death to be imminent took an emotional toll on me. The pain and fear of losing him also did something else – it made me start to realize my own mortality. Questions of death reminded me of my fear of hell when I was younger, along with the questions of the future of mankind. The internet was exploding in popularity and 24/7 news made access to the events of the world easy to digest.

 

At 19 years old, my mother decided to dig up our family tree, leading to a road trip to visit relatives we had never met. This meant I plenty of time to do some reading and on a whim, saw the very first Left Behind book in a store. It, along with a “End Times Bible Guide” that was being sold along side, became my friend along this trip. And this friend scared the living shit out of me.

 

The “proof” was everywhere: problems in the Middle East, Russia being dicks to Israel, Israel even being a nation, sin everywhere , Syria being Gog and Russia Magog and just about every prophecy of Jesus’s imminent return being fulfilled, how could it NOT be true? I asked myself this several times.

 

And right there, I prayed for the first time. I asked for a sign that god was listening.

 

Two weeks later my grandfather died, which kept questions of death and hell on my mind. And a week after that I was invited to a Southern Baptist church from one of the least likely sources – a friend who was never religious. A girl he had the hot’s for, of course, invited him. He had met her at the place he worked and I took it as a sign. This was my “answer” to the prayer.

 

I laugh looking back because the coincidences seemed so odd. It “had” to be an answer to my prayer, so I thought and I imagine most Christians now would say it was. But looking back, that’s all it was. Coincidence. The girl my friend was dating had a history of “missionary dating” (dating non-Christian guys and getting them to convert). My buddy didn’t even want to go – he invited me along so he would have someone to go with and not be stuck there.

 

I was seeking answers at that point in my life and I’m positive that she had not invited him, I would’ve found myself at a church anyway. And I would’ve counted that as “God leading me there.” But when all you see is Christian churches on every corner, evangelicals preaching everywhere, Christians wearing shirts and crosses, whole radio and TV stations with music and ministry, billboards with gospel messages – the statistical likelihood of having that prayer answered in the way I expected was astronomically high. If not for her and my friend, it could’ve easily been a billboard on the street “leading the way” or a coworker telling me about Jesus, it was bound to happen.

 

In any event, I went and heard the “gospel” a second time. The first in the book I read, the second from the youth pastor. Right then and there I became a fundy Christian and swallowed the blue pill hook, line and sinker. I did it without question, without thought, and without any rational process. I prayed the prayer and jumped in: and became an obnoxious little shit, on fire for God for the next year and a half.

 

Things were great starting off. I had a large group of Christian friends who surrounded me and supported me. For the first time in my life, I found friends who would actually speak the words “I love you!” (Not that I never felt love from my parents, I certainly did. I just never was this close to people outside my family)

 

But as with all things religious and based on feelings and faith, it was not meant to last.  The youth pastor who seemed to be a unifying force for my group of friends got into a nasty argument with several members of the church about things. To this day I do not know what, but it was enough to force him to leave. And with him gone, things went south, fast.

 

The love quickly faded: Sides were taking. If you supported “him”, you were being “misled”.  People who claimed to love me suddenly didn’t love me so much. I found myself not being invited to things, and not understanding why. The girl who first invited my friend left for college, so another unifying force left. Then I find out that church leaders were covering a sex abuse scandal. It was too much, so I followed the youth leader to a new church.

 

An older church and even more conservative…but there was hope! The pastor there assured me that things were changing and God wanted me there. He “felt it”. I was brought in to help change the music style (I’m a musician) and to help attract more young people to the church. I’ll spare the long story – but it was more of the same. People hated other people for wanting things changed – the people who wanted the change hated the people who didn’t.

 

But what led me out of this church was typical American drama. A popular girl, who was the kid of one of the more prominent families, was dating a guy. A guy, who I knew, was cheating on her. I confided this information to her in love and concern – what I got was the boot from the church. (And a year later, she actually discovered I was right! But no apology was given. I was not invited back.)

 

After 3 drama filled years, I began to ask questions. Why were these supposedly “close friends” so quick to drop me? I still, to this day, don’t know why the first group was so mad at me. I never verbally said anything in support of the disowned youth leader. Why did these churches, which claims the holy spirit, so divisive? And without any sustaining love? Of course, I was either ignored, or told these questions “were from the devil”.

 

At this point I began questioning Young Earth Creationism. As an avid lover of science, who grew up on Star Trek, who regularly read science books for fun, I found myself shoving YEC to the back of my mind and just “accepting it” on faith because that was what I was supposed to do. But it didn’t make sense to me. Science made sense. Again, these questions were met with hostility or some bullshit.

 

So anyway, I left this church and headed for what was to be my final one. A Nazarene church, who was on the other side of the isle (far more liberal), at least compared to the two Baptist churches I attended. Here the message was different. You COULD lose your salvation by walking away. The pastor explained the divide amongst Christians with the good ol “No True Scotsman” argument. Fallacious, for sure, but backed by the argument that people could actually walk away from God after salvation, why it all made sense!

 

I attended for a while and everything went fine. But I noticed a lot more people were broken here. Every Sunday the same group of people would hit that alter and beg, cry and plead with God to forgive them. While the church preached love a lot more, didn’t do a whole lot of hell, fire and brimstone like the Baptists did, I noticed a lot of people here were scared to death of a sin left unrepented.

This, of course, led to more questions. What’s the point of Jesus’s sacrifice if we are to live like this? The extreme amount of constant guilt didn’t seem freeing to me…it seemed like emotional slavery. Regardless, I didn’t stay at the church long before I headed off to college.

 

A Christian college, of course, but the most liberal sect of Christianity I have seen thus far. While dancing was fine, drinking (over 21 of course) was okay(outside the college to some degree), and even being in the rooms of the opposite sex was okay during certain hours, you still had to sign a lifestyle statement. No sex. No porn. No gambling. Religious services were required and more so.

 

But these final years here started to accelerate me down the path towards atheism. I had religious teachers who challenged the logic of our beliefs and made us think. I had science teachers who taught evolution (albeit God Guided, but that was rarely mentioned) as fact, and I dealt with most hypocritical organization on the planet. They preached a good message – but for all that message – they were obsessed with money. They went against the very lifestyle statement we were all forced to sign if it meant more cash for the college. Gambling legislation was on the table in Springfield and the Governor at the time promised money to the college if it passed. Boy did the college change it tune when money was promised. Every student was asked to go support the bill, rally, tell our parents, etc. All the while, a student was nearly kicked out for getting caught gambling on campus.

 

Other things – rapes and other crimes were covered up. (I had a laptop stolen and the school asked me NOT to go to the police) The school spent money foolishly on dumbass trips to make the college seem more “spiritual”.

 

I had enough. Frustrated at the seeming endless hypocrisy, plagued with questions no one wanted to answer, I refused to go to any church. For the next several years, I barely read the bible but I still considered myself a Christian.

 

But I couldn’t dodge the questions in the back of my mind. Why would God bring me through all that pain? When I asked him to lead me to him all those years prior, I never asked for that. Loss of friends, two-faced pastors, lying scumbags who would sweep abuse under the table, betrayal and more led me to question.

 

Was it god? Was it coincidence? All the supposed spiritual feelings and events, were those real? Could they be attributed to anything else? The house of cards started to fall apart. So I did what I always do – I read. I asked. And I read some more.

 

And the more I read, the more I thought, the more I rationed through it, I realized I couldn’t buy it anymore.

 

- The fractured nature of Christianity may not “disprove” it, but it does make it suspect. The holy spirit is supposed to be a guiding, unifying force. Jesus specifically prayed for Unity in the body. The church fathers and apostles preached unity and yet churches constantly fracture. Good “God-Fearing” people end up being absolute dicks to one another seems to suggest no guiding spirit.
 

- YEC (Young Earth Creationism) has so much evidence against it, even at the height of my fundamentalism I had a hard time swallowing it. I had to just push it out of my mind.
 

-  If God Guided evolution is true – why was Jesus needed? Without the Original Sin of Adam, sin seems “built in” to each of us, which means we never really had a choice to begin with. God built us broken, so our sin is directly his fault.
 

- Going further – if evolution is true, the big bang is true, stellar formation models are true, and other science truths – why does God need to be in the equation to begin with?
 

- Why is every religious experience outside of Christianity “brought on by Satan” but our religious experiences (which happen the same way, feel the same way, described the same way), “From God”?

- How do we know our God is the right god? Why is it Jesus and YHWH and not, say, Zeus?

 

- If Children don’t go to hell when they die, isn’t it better to just never have kids? Or to murder all them before they get too old? If hell is eternal torture, then wouldn’t it be better just to end it quickly here and they go right to heaven without any risk of hell?

 

- If God is All Powerful and All Loving, why hell? Why suffering? The “Journey” argument is bunk (that we all have a lesson to learn, to magnify God’s glory, however THAT is possible, or that the journey is important) because an all loving and powerful god can still teach us those things without ever causing suffering.

 

These questions are what caused me to deconvert, since no Christian seems able to give a satisfactory answer, or provide evidence that God actually exists (and that their God is the right one).

 

After leaving Christianity for good, I no longer feel guilt for who I am. I no longer live in fear of hell, of dying, or of doing something to piss off God. The truth HAS set me free. The world makes more sense and requires far less mental gymnastics to understand than before. And my time on this planet seems far more precious and wonderful because of it!

Again, sorry for the long story!

 

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Emotion & indoctrination is the foundation of religion not science, reason, or logic. Experience has convinced me the Bible itself is where Christianity is most vulnerable. Prove the Bible isn't literally true or historically accurate & the basis of their faith will be shattered.

 

I think they have another vulnerable issue to deal with too. The inability of their God to deal with evil. Where was God at Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, & the beheading of Christians in the Middle East? A God that cannot or will not act in the face of evil is useless. In other words where is God when He/It is desperately needed?

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Emotion & indoctrination is the foundation of religion not science, reason, or logic. Experience has convinced me the Bible itself is where Christianity is most vulnerable. Prove the Bible isn't literally true or historically accurate & the basis of their faith will be shattered.

 

I think they have another vulnerable issue to deal with too. The inability of their God to deal with evil. Where was God at Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, & the beheading of Christians in the Middle East? A God that cannot or will not act in the face of evil is useless. In other words where is God when He/It is desperately needed?

 

I've heard the arguments about the journey, teaching lessons, glorifying god - except your last point proves it makes no sense. If you're a christian and you're being beheaded - where is the glory? There is no journey after that. You're dead. Where is the lesson in that? That you held out in the end? What did it teach you? 

 

If Christianity is true, then I suppose the reward would be immediately after. But why such an extreme, terrifying end to being faithful?

 

None of it makes sense. But that's Christianity. 

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Nothing making sense. Doing mental gymnastics. The feeling of freedom when it was all over. I can relate. It really does feel free when you know the truth.

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it seemed like emotional slavery. 

 

Welcome to Ex-c dangitbobby! Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. Yes, that good ole' blue pill..... I swallowed it also when I was young. I can relate to your story on so many levels....

 

It always confirms to me, even after being on this board for five years that many of the things I went through during my church lifetime, others have also. When you describe that feeling of being loved by the church (being part of the big family) and promised that god would help you with so many things and then only to find out behind the scenes how the politics affected many people. The first church I got 'saved', I stayed for 8 years and it almost destroyed my sense of self worth because I could never seem to get it right with the lord. One minute we were told the 'potter' was making us into  diamonds and not to worry about the 'sinning' (because god could forgive anything) and then the pastor would tell us to basically shit or get off the pot in the next meeting. Then we'd be told that we were leaving too many areas open for satan to attack us?? I was so confused about god and his love.

 

I also church hopped over the next 25 years and ended up (before I totally got out for good) in a total 100% 'grace filled church' where they drank alcohol, danced, cheated and lied (basically any sin could be covered and they took advantage of that) because they could do anything and get away with it because of god's 'grace'. What a fucked up system.

 

As soon as you disagreed with any of them or their policies (liberal or conservative).... in any of the churches, you were an outcast and lost most of your so-called friends. There is a lot of nice people in those churches who are genuine, (very blinded - but nice) but I've met my share of frauds also.

 

I'm so glad you seem to be doing OK with all of this. The truth really does set you free!!

 

I'm also so glad you found Ex-c. Looking forward to more of your stories! Thanks for confirming to me today how glad I am to be out of that whole christian system! 

 

(Hug)

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In any event, I went and heard the “gospel” a second time. The first in the book I read, the second from the youth pastor. Right then and there I became a fundy Christian and swallowed the blue pill hook, line and sinker. I did it without question, without thought, and without any rational process. I prayed the prayer and jumped in: and became an obnoxious little shit, on fire for God for the next year and a half.

You sir, are a literary artist. I have not seen 'shit' used in this context with such artful lead-up, creation, and perfect execution in a very long time. You sir, are truly an artist.

 

And as to the rest, about how Christianity can be loving and all that....

REMEMBER: HATE IS LOVE (in Christianity)

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Thanks Marge, Brendan and everyone else. 

 

It's been one hell of a journey, that's for sure. And I'm glad I finally landed in my new home here!

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- If Children don’t go to hell when they die, isn’t it better to just never have kids? Or to murder all them before they get too old? If hell is eternal torture, then wouldn’t it be better just to end it quickly here and they go right to heaven without any risk of hell?

 

 

 

This is something that never adds up to me.  I know there are some denominations that believe if a young child dies without being baptized, that child may not go to heaven.  But I think on balance, most Christians would say that a young child who dies goes to heaven.  From the perspective of an all-powerful, all-knowing God, I think it begs the question of why would God not just create all of our souls directly in heaven in the first place?  Why even bother with earth and creating our souls in a human form?  An infant who dies would be a soul that was never self-aware as a human.  That soul's first moment of awareness would be in heaven with Jesus.  If God is going to allow souls to enter heaven without ever being self-aware as humans, then what's the point of us humans living for, say, ~80 years on earth, if at the end of the day, the reward is the same?  By being born and reaching an "age of accountability" as a human, you have to maintain a certain belief system for the rest of your ~80-year life, just to be able to go to the same place you would have gone had you died as an infant.  And all the while, apparently dealing with another supernatural entity in Satan for the rest of your life, who is actively trying to lead you away, or astray.  If Christianity is true and that everyone has to make a free-will decision to believe in Jesus and that he died for your sins, then it seems as though it should be physically impossible for any fetus, infant, or young child to die. 

 

It would be like the Super Mario brothers video game, where Mario must play the whole game, going through every world, fighting all these enemies and avoiding pitfalls, in order to get to the Princess...but Luigi, before the game even starts, gets to take a warp zone directly to the Princess and avoid everything Mario had to go through. 

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Ready - point that stuff out to a Christian and the response will probably be something like "God is mysterious..." lol

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Ready - point that stuff out to a Christian and the response will probably be something like "God is mysterious..." lol

 

Probably so Bobby.  For me, even if I acknowledge that I am a human with limited knowledge and could not comprehend why God acts in mysterious ways, I could not get past the inherit unfairness there. 

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