I Want To Believe

[WarriorPoet]

A few nights ago my wife and I went out to dinner, an occasion that has become exceedingly rare since our new bundle of joy arrived a few months ago.  My wife drove, so I took advantage of the opportunity and had what could be referred to as 1 or 2 too many glasses of wine.  After dinner, we went home, got the kid to sleep and my wife went to bed.  I wasn't feeling particularly tired yet, so I went down to the man-cave to catch up on a few shows that were stored in the DVR.

 

When I got downstairs I saw the "artwork" that I have hanging up on the wall, one of the pieces is this poster that was a birthday gift from my wife a few years ago:

 

https://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-keywords=i%20want%20to%20believe%20firefly&index=blended&link_code=qs&sourceid=Mozilla-search&tag=mozilla-20

 

That poster is exactly the type of nerdy thing I like.  If you are unaware of what is being referenced, it is basically Fox Mulder's "I Want to Believe" picture with the flying saucer replaced by the Serenity from the show Firefly.  For some reason on this particular night, I started thinking about the words on that picture.

 

When I'm in my cups, my brain sometimes goes off into areas that it doesn't go when I'm sober.  The thoughts that I come up with in this state are usually discovered to be terrible after I reevaluate them when I am not impaired, but what I thought about that night stuck with me.

 

There is something I used to believe in, I believed it until I was 28 years old.  I believed in the god of the bible, I believed in Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection,  I believed that my faith in this entity and these events, along with other aspects of christian theology, guaranteed my salvation after my earthly life was over.  I won't go into my whole deconversion story here or all of the events leading up to it, but one day in the fall of that year I realized that I could no longer believe in any of this.

 

A charge that is often leveled at atheists or ex-christians is that they just want to sin.  That is ridiculous on its face since I'm fairly sure that most of us don't do much more of what christians call a sin than we did when we were still christians.  It is also incredibly insulting when someone thinks that they can boil down a major part of another person's worldview to a catch phrase that they heard the preacher say from the pulpit.

 

It gets even more insulting than that though, and I'm sure most christians don't realize why.  I didn't even realize it myself on anything more than a subconscious level, at least until a few unexpected minutes of alcohol induced thought.  I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of my fellow ex-christians don't really realize it either.

 

I would encourage the would-be internet evangelist or apologist to pay close attention, because this is what you are up against here.  In my lifetime, I have lost a father, 2 grandfathers, a grandmother, a step grandfather, an uncle, an aunt, two close friends and others.  These were all people I loved, people that were important to me.  If there was a way that I could be reunited with these people, I would jump at the chance.  This is where the words from that poster come in.  I want to believe.  I want to believe that I will see some or all of these people again.  I lost my dad when I was a child and I want to believe that he could know the man that I grew into.  I want to believe that every one of these people are waiting for my eventual arrival.  I want to believe in the joy and celebration that we will have when we see each other again.

 

Can you imagine what I would sacrifice to make any of that happen?  If you could prove to me that I could see my dad again, I would never touch a drop of wine again if that were required.  I would sell off my entire entertainment system along with every tv, radio and every other electronic device I own and donate the money to charity for the chance to go fishing with my grandfathers again.  I would sacrifice nearly anything, even my own life, to be reunited with all of the loved ones I have lost.  (Though now that I am a husband and a father, I consider my life as belonging to my wife and child as well, so that is not currently mine to give).  On the subject of my wife, if some unforeseen tragedy were to happen to her, I would forgo all sexual acts with anyone else for the rest of my life if it meant I could be with her again.

 

I hope you are beginning to understand why we ex-christians sometimes get so frustrated.  I know that I can't speak for all of us, but I'm guessing a lot of people here feel the same way I do.  We have all lost loved ones.  Some more than others, and we would love a chance to be with them again.  When we see all the old arguments that we have seen a thousand times before, when our experiences are oversimplified by others who have no clue what we have gone through, when the best you can offer us is a few lines from an old book that most of us have already read it makes us frustrated.  I get frustrated because no matter how many times we say it, it seems that you don't understand that we can't believe this stuff without evidence, we really can't. 

 

I don't get frustrated because I don't want to believe.  I get frustrated because I do.

[yunea]

Man, YES. I wish it could all be true! I wish there was supernatural guidance and protection, I wish the final goodbye on Earth was actually a "see you again in some years, and then we'll never ever part again", I wish there were answers for prayers. I wish I could have the old, flawed me die away and be born again. I wish all the suffering in my life, and other people's and animals' lives, was there for a bigger reason. I wish there were spiritual gifts that gave us wisdom we wouldn't otherwise have, and an actual prayer language that God understands, or when appropriate, a foreign person.

 

Can the apologists imagine the emptiness and sadness I felt when I lost the hope of seeing my deceased brother again? I had this beautiful thought that instead of the dysfunctional brain he had on Earth he'd be in a heavenly, flawless form, able to finally talk with me?! 

 

But yeah I totally just want to be rebellious and sin lots and stuff. 

 

Funny enough, I feel less tempted to do the things classified as sins now that I'm not a believer anymore. Heh.  

[Thought2Much]

While I don't feel this way myself, I can certainly understand why many people do.

[Guest end3]

A few nights ago my wife and I went out to dinner, an occasion that has become exceedingly rare since our new bundle of joy arrived a few months ago.  My wife drove, so I took advantage of the opportunity and had what could be referred to as 1 or 2 too many glasses of wine.  After dinner, we went home, got the kid to sleep and my wife went to bed.  I wasn't feeling particularly tired yet, so I went down to the man-cave to catch up on a few shows that were stored in the DVR.

 

When I got downstairs I saw the "artwork" that I have hanging up on the wall, one of the pieces is this poster that was a birthday gift from my wife a few years ago:

 

https://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&field-keywords=i%20want%20to%20believe%20firefly&index=blended&link_code=qs&sourceid=Mozilla-search&tag=mozilla-20

 

That poster is exactly the type of nerdy thing I like.  If you are unaware of what is being referenced, it is basically Fox Mulder's "I Want to Believe" picture with the flying saucer replaced by the Serenity from the show Firefly.  For some reason on this particular night, I started thinking about the words on that picture.

 

When I'm in my cups, my brain sometimes goes off into areas that it doesn't go when I'm sober.  The thoughts that I come up with in this state are usually discovered to be terrible after I reevaluate them when I am not impaired, but what I thought about that night stuck with me.

 

There is something I used to believe in, I believed it until I was 28 years old.  I believed in the god of the bible, I believed in Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection,  I believed that my faith in this entity and these events, along with other aspects of christian theology, guaranteed my salvation after my earthly life was over.  I won't go into my whole deconversion story here or all of the events leading up to it, but one day in the fall of that year I realized that I could no longer believe in any of this.

 

A charge that is often leveled at atheists or ex-christians is that they just want to sin.  That is ridiculous on its face since I'm fairly sure that most of us don't do much more of what christians call a sin than we did when we were still christians.  It is also incredibly insulting when someone thinks that they can boil down a major part of another person's worldview to a catch phrase that they heard the preacher say from the pulpit.

 

It gets even more insulting than that though, and I'm sure most christians don't realize why.  I didn't even realize it myself on anything more than a subconscious level, at least until a few unexpected minutes of alcohol induced thought.  I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of my fellow ex-christians don't really realize it either.

 

I would encourage the would-be internet evangelist or apologist to pay close attention, because this is what you are up against here.  In my lifetime, I have lost a father, 2 grandfathers, a grandmother, a step grandfather, an uncle, an aunt, two close friends and others.  These were all people I loved, people that were important to me.  If there was a way that I could be reunited with these people, I would jump at the chance.  This is were the words from that poster come in.  I want to believe.  I want to believe that I will see some or all of these people again.  I lost my dad when I was a child and I want to believe that he could know the man that I grew into.  I want to believe that every one of these people are waiting for my eventual arrival.  I want to believe in the joy and celebration that we will have when we see each other again.

 

Can you imagine what I would sacrifice to make any of that happen?  If you could prove to me that I could see my dad again, I would never touch a drop of wine again if that were required.  I would sell off my entire entertainment system along with every tv, radio and other every electronic device I own and donate the money to charity for the chance to go fishing with my grandfathers again.  I would sacrifice nearly anything, even my own life, to be reunited with all of the loved ones I have lost.  (Though now that I am a husband and a father, I consider my life as belonging to my wife and child as well, so that is not currently mine to give).  On the subject of my wife, if some unforeseen tragedy were to happen to her, I would forgo all sexual acts with anyone else for the rest of my life if it meant I could be with her again.

 

I hope you are beginning to understand why we ex-christians sometimes get so frustrated.  I know that I can't speak for all of us, but I'm guessing a lot of people here feel the same way I do.  We have all lost loved ones.  Some more than others, and we would love a chance to be with them again.  When we see all the old arguments that we have seen a thousand times before, when our experiences are oversimplified by others who have no clue what we have gone through, when the best you can offer us is a few lines from an old book that most of us have already read it makes us frustrated.  I get frustrated because no matter how many times we say it, it seems that you don't understand that we can't believe this stuff without evidence, we really can't. 

 

I don't get frustrated because I don't want to believe.  I get frustrated because I do.

You ever consider...paraphrasing here from bad memory, but what went through my mind was, "what must I do to be finished"? I think the answer was "sell everything and follow me". Maybe your are finished/complete. Looks like you have love and sacrifice down very well....just an opinion.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

I would have sold my soul to the devil for it to have been real... and maybe I did.

[Geezer]

Now that I've been out of Xianity for awhile I'm wondering how much of it I truly believed as opposed to what I verbally acknowledged to believe just to be part of the group. I said I believed in an afterlife, but I honestly don't remember ever truly anticipating seeing any of my loved ones again.

 

At one time, early on, maybe I did believe but with the passing of time I began to see the problems associated with Xianity & I think my faith began to waver. When I walked away from my faith I was more concerned with losing my friends than I was possibly missing out on heaven.

 

About a year before I pulled the plug on Xianity we had a friend who had terminal cancer. She was a single mom with an 8 yr old son. She had a blog & I read her posts for awhile, but It got to be too much. She was begging God to heal her for the sake of her son. She confirmed her love for Jesus & begged Him to heal her. She kept telling God how much she loved & trusted Him. I had to stop reading her blog because I knew she was going to die & she wasn't going to Heaven because such a place didn't exist.

 

She suffered greatly before she finally passed away. At her funeral, which had a huge turnout, the Preacher went on & on about how she was with Jesus now & that we should all rejoice. I remember looking at her little boy with tears running down his face. He didn't want his mom to be with Jesus, he wanted her to be with him.

 

I remember thinking what a big fat freaking lie Xianity is, how cruel it can be too. Offering hope when there is no hope.

[Margee]

I would have sold my soul to the devil for it to have been real... and maybe I did.

 

 

Yes Redneck!! ^^^  I always loved living in magic la-la land. I miss it and always will but I'm afraid that I have turned into a fairly logical thinker now.

 

So the magic is gone......    

[duderonomy]

She suffered greatly before she finally passed away. At her funeral, which had a huge turnout, the Preacher went on & on about how she was with Jesus now & that we should all rejoice. I remember looking at her little boy with tears running down his face. He didn't want his mom to be with Jesus, he wanted her to be with him.

 

I remember thinking what a big fat freaking lie Xianity is, how cruel it can be too. Offering hope when there is no hope.

 

That was a great post Geezer, and this part jumped out at me. ^^

 

I wonder if that young man is still somewhere being convicted of sin and trying to please a non-existing deity so he can see his mom again someday.  The hope of a of Heaven has just as much pull to keep people in the faith as the fear of a Hell has, and like you said it offers hope where there is no hope.

What a mindf*ck. 

[BarbarousBill]

I often think about this.... If anything my academic study of ancient Mediterranean religions has helped me. In some ways I intellectually acknowledge that if material reality is all there is and naturalism is truly the de naturalis jure of the universe, and hence, I am all there is to me, physically.

 

But at the same time when I think on it a bit, and with enough study of my area of expertise, I begin to realize the nature of reality a little bit better, and gain a little bit of ambiguity to the nature of epistemological understanding. In some ways this has caused me grief in wondering about my own beliefs... But at the same time when pressed, I usually answer folks that inquire, "I'm an observer of religion, not a participant." This response has so far in life suited me quite adeptly. However, in the real nature of my living, I maintain a shrine to Buddha, Odin, Thor, Hades, Tyr, the household Lares and Penates, among other spirits/deity/ies. I light candles and sometimes incense and sometimes meditate on them. But in what way does this change my true nature of being and understanding myself?

 

Well.... If I'm being honest, I guess it makes me an eclectic syncretist, or perhaps, an eclectic-agnostic-hyridized-polyhenotheist. Or perhaps better put, your average ancient Roman. But at the same time I am able to successfully disentangle myself from my orthopraxic traditions and examine everything from an outside and objective perspective (as much as possible) which is necessary for truly academic study.

 

Truly, I am an old-school religionist, if that, given what we know of most ancient religious practitioners. The emphasis was orthopraxy over orthodoxy (although honestly I think most Christians if they are honest with themselves practice orthopraxy over orthodoxy). Because of this reality, I do not feel conflict between my intellectualized understanding of reality, and my practiced, perhaps spiritual, method of being in this reality.

 

The two are contradictory and conflicting and in some ways mutually exclusive, but for me, there is no conflict nor can there be since it is harmony in discord. This probably wasn't the answer you were looking for, I just hope the idea that you can be your own thing, you don't have to be defined by others, including their ideology, that is the big deal.

[rjn]

Barbarous, you never cease to amaze! Those views are pretty damn close to my own, though I'm probably more of a bitter Northern Heathen than a Roman one. If I ever got to choose another time period to live in however, I'd probably go for Classical Antiquity. I'd run around drunk on some beach in the Aegan in a wine-stained toga (or more likely, nude) and shout indecencies and metaphysical truths at the Sky, the Sea and anyone unfortunate enough to pass me by. THAT would be a good life.

[bornagainathiest]

Your question, "What must I do to be finished?" only makes sense if you have been 'started' in some way.

 

If the context of your question is your belief in a divine origin - what about any evidence to the contrary?  

 

If objective evidence matters to you at all, then you should only address your question once you've taken the contrary evidence into account.

 

If this evidence shows that God did not start anything, then neither did he start you and your question about finishing is meaningless.

 

But if objective evidence doesn't matter to you, then no evidence can ever contradict your belief in a divine origin.

 

You are totally free to answer your question about being finished, because you already believe that you have been started.

 

Having excluded such things as objectivity and evidence, you are free to do subjectively believe whatever you like by faith.

 

If you start subjectively and by faith, excluding objectivity and evidence from get go - then you might as well finish as you started. 

 

No checking, no testing, no confirmation and no verification desired, required or even possible.

 

Game over!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest end3]

Your question, "What must I do to be finished?" only makes sense if you have been 'started' in some way.

 

If the context of your question is your belief in a divine origin - what about any evidence to the contrary?  

 

If objective evidence matters to you at all, then you should only address your question once you've taken the contrary evidence into account.

 

If this evidence shows that God did not start anything, then neither did he start you and your question about finishing is meaningless.

 

But if objective evidence doesn't matter to you, then no evidence can ever contradict your belief in a divine origin.

 

You are totally free to answer your question about being finished, because you already believe that you have been started.

 

Having excluded such things as objectivity and evidence, you are free to do subjectively believe whatever you like by faith.

 

If you start subjectively and by faith, excluding objectivity and evidence from get go - then you might as well finish as you started. 

 

No checking, no testing, no confirmation and no verification desired, required or even possible.

 

Game over!

 

 

Lot of intelligent people consuming the koolaid BAA. I see your point, but...

[bornagainathiest]

 

Your question, "What must I do to be finished?" only makes sense if you have been 'started' in some way.

 

If the context of your question is your belief in a divine origin - what about any evidence to the contrary?  

 

If objective evidence matters to you at all, then you should only address your question once you've taken the contrary evidence into account.

 

If this evidence shows that God did not start anything, then neither did he start you and your question about finishing is meaningless.

 

But if objective evidence doesn't matter to you, then no evidence can ever contradict your belief in a divine origin.

 

You are totally free to answer your question about being finished, because you already believe that you have been started.

 

Having excluded such things as objectivity and evidence, you are free to do subjectively believe whatever you like by faith.

 

If you start subjectively and by faith, excluding objectivity and evidence from get go - then you might as well finish as you started. 

 

No checking, no testing, no confirmation and no verification desired, required or even possible.

 

Game over!

 

 

Lot of intelligent people consuming the koolaid BAA. I see your point, but...

 

 

But...?

[Guest end3]

 

 

Your question, "What must I do to be finished?" only makes sense if you have been 'started' in some way.

 

If the context of your question is your belief in a divine origin - what about any evidence to the contrary?  

 

If objective evidence matters to you at all, then you should only address your question once you've taken the contrary evidence into account.

 

If this evidence shows that God did not start anything, then neither did he start you and your question about finishing is meaningless.

 

But if objective evidence doesn't matter to you, then no evidence can ever contradict your belief in a divine origin.

 

You are totally free to answer your question about being finished, because you already believe that you have been started.

 

Having excluded such things as objectivity and evidence, you are free to do subjectively believe whatever you like by faith.

 

If you start subjectively and by faith, excluding objectivity and evidence from get go - then you might as well finish as you started. 

 

No checking, no testing, no confirmation and no verification desired, required or even possible.

 

Game over!

 

 

Lot of intelligent people consuming the koolaid BAA. I see your point, but...

 

 

But...?

 

You would wish me to say that faith and subjectivity are meaningless?

[Guest end3]

Might as well include hope, love, and all the others we can't adequately define....

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

Your question, "What must I do to be finished?" only makes sense if you have been 'started' in some way.

 

If the context of your question is your belief in a divine origin - what about any evidence to the contrary?  

 

If objective evidence matters to you at all, then you should only address your question once you've taken the contrary evidence into account.

 

If this evidence shows that God did not start anything, then neither did he start you and your question about finishing is meaningless.

 

But if objective evidence doesn't matter to you, then no evidence can ever contradict your belief in a divine origin.

 

You are totally free to answer your question about being finished, because you already believe that you have been started.

 

Having excluded such things as objectivity and evidence, you are free to do subjectively believe whatever you like by faith.

 

If you start subjectively and by faith, excluding objectivity and evidence from get go - then you might as well finish as you started. 

 

No checking, no testing, no confirmation and no verification desired, required or even possible.

 

Game over!

 

 

Lot of intelligent people consuming the koolaid BAA. I see your point, but...

 

 

But...?

 

You would wish me to say that faith and subjectivity are meaningless?

 

 

No.

 

Faith has some meaning and subjectivity has meaning too.

 

What I would wish is that you'd recognize that objectivity and evidence are meaningful too.

 

And that each comes to the fore at different times, relegating the others to a secondary place.

.

.

.

And hope and love and the others have some meaning and their places too.

 

What I would wish from you is that you'd agree that at certain times and in certain circumstances, objectivity and evidence come to the fore and push faith, subjectivity, hope, love and other things into second place.

[xIan]

It is also incredibly insulting when someone thinks that they can boil down a major part of another person's worldview to a catch phrase that they heard the preacher say from the pulpit.

Which the preacher charged them money for, which they paid "willingly", so that the preacher cannot be accused of stealing/laundering money!

 

Can you imagine what I would sacrifice to make any of that happen?

That's all christianity is - all sacrifice and no gain, no return. You sacrifice money through "offerings" which are brainwashed into you by control through fear of upsetting "god" - despite all money being "god's", allegedly. (Why doesn't "the" pope sell its solid gold crosses and help the poor and starving? Why doesn't "god"?!) Speaking about evangelists - Joyce Meyer, for example, has a nice big house and many cars. Why doesn't she sell that and give the money to help her local community?!

 

If you could prove to me that I could see my dad again, I would never touch a drop of wine again if that were required.  I would sell off my entire entertainment system along with every tv, radio and other every electronic device I own and donate the money to charity for the chance to go fishing with my grandfathers again.  I would sacrifice nearly anything, even my own life, to be reunited with all of the loved ones I have lost.

...

On the subject of my wife, if some unforeseen tragedy were to happen to her, I would forgo all sexual acts with anyone else for the rest of my life if it meant I could be with her again.

 

You sound exactly like a christian. I can't speak for other people, though, but I recognise that's how I used to be when I believed in that non-existent faerie in the sky. It didn't make the blindest bit of difference.

 

(Though now that I am a husband and a father, I consider my life as belonging to my wife and child as well, so that is not currently mine to give)

Phew! You're not a christian! Thank f*ck for that! (I used to say "thank fuck for that" before I became a christian in the first place.) "abraham", on the other hand, was told by "god" to kill its son to "prove its faith to 'god'". Why don't christians kill their own children as a "sacrifice" to "god", ignoring the fact it's illegal? They "are" under "higher laws", after all...

 

We have all lost loved ones.

Yes, and why does "god" allow, cause, or encourage that to happen? "To build character"?! Bullsh*t. Why does "god" allow people have cancer? Why did "god" create this Zika virus which was manufacturered in 1947 by Rockefeller?! if the cop-out "it's because of sin" is the reply, then "god" is the worst teacher and parent I have ever..."known".

 

I get frustrated because I do.

Don't believe in "god". christianity has nothing of its own - it was all stolen; twisted; perverted; and corrupted from Pagan religions - actual religions, as opposed to this death cult of christianity and its sibling islam and their parent judaism. Paganism (not the modern-day, watered-down, christianised "Paganism"), preceded judaism by thousands and thousands of years.

 

To any christian who now is going into cardiac arrest - calm down. If you are not a jew, then you are a Pagan. I said calm down! Turn your pacemaker on. Sheesh. If you are supposed to copy off your "god", why are you not a jew? The character of "jesus" in that faerie tale story book called "the bible" was a jew, so why aren't you? Is that because you are not a jew? If you are not a jew, then you are a Pagan. "Pagan" is an old word which means "Gentile", and "Gentile" means "non-jew". If you're not a jew, then you are a Pagan, the very thing you have been brainwashed (and if you don't mind me saying, mind-raped) into fearing and despising and thinking is pure evil. You are not pure evil - but that's all that xianity is about; making the sheep be a slave, be nothing, be less than the "leaders"; saying anything they do "wrong" or "sinful" will upset "god" which causes them fear...which is what they use for control.

 

Anyway - who's to say you won't see your family again? xians will tell you that reincarnation doesn't happen, yet it happened in the bible. "No, that's resurrection." Semantics and synonyms, you pedants. Pre-judaic Paganism - Nature-loving religions, as opposed to judeochristian and islam death cults - were, as I said, Nature-loving and believed reincarnation happens. As I'm sure many, including jews, christians, and muslims, are aware, cities were razed; libraries and materials burnt and destroyed; history re-written, exaggerated, and fabricated; statues destroyed; etc. Pre-judaic Paganism has survived despite these attempts at eradicating it from existence. If "god" is so all-powerful and so all-able, then why can't it defeat Paganism - non-jews-ism? Indeed, christianity and islam mutated from judaism. If "god" is so powerful and is alleged to have created the universe and everything in it, why can't it defeat iron? "god" itself admitted it can't defeat iron...

 

De-programme yourself from xianity. It is a process, I suppose you could say an assembly line, an on-going un-learning of that programming which has been drilled into you so deeply. I left "god" and xianity years ago and then started to "rebel" against "god", by going into the occult and into Paganism - me-ism, I suppose you could say, because I'm not a jew - and then starting to learn and use my brain to de-programme myself. Still, to this day, I notice how much xianity has infiltrated everyday life, environment, and culture. "Occult" simply means "hidden knowledge". When attempts are made to inform xians that numerology is a...as some people say discipline, they tend to turn around immediately and say it is of the devil. No, it is not of "god". (If you read the bible, you will know "god" is the devil.) Yet at the same time, xians say "'god' is amazing with the numbers of the verses in the bible".

 

If you want to stop being frustrated with "god"; xianity; the jew that "is" jesus; the "holy" spirit, then visit exposingchristianity.com and read through it. There's plenty there, but take your time. You have to start somewhere, of course!

 

 

I would have sold my soul to the devil for it to have been real... and maybe I did.

Perhaps you don't realise this but xians have sold their souls to the devil. If you read the bible, you will realise that "god" is the actual devil.

 

 

I remember thinking what a big fat freaking lie Xianity is, how cruel it can be too. Offering hope when there is no hope.

Don't forget what the church did against people in Medieval times... If "god" told them to do that, then why can't they continue to do it now?! Yeah, it might be illegal, but "god" makes "higher laws"!

[bornagainathiest]

 

 

 

 

Your question, "What must I do to be finished?" only makes sense if you have been 'started' in some way.

 

If the context of your question is your belief in a divine origin - what about any evidence to the contrary?  

 

If objective evidence matters to you at all, then you should only address your question once you've taken the contrary evidence into account.

 

If this evidence shows that God did not start anything, then neither did he start you and your question about finishing is meaningless.

 

But if objective evidence doesn't matter to you, then no evidence can ever contradict your belief in a divine origin.

 

You are totally free to answer your question about being finished, because you already believe that you have been started.

 

Having excluded such things as objectivity and evidence, you are free to do subjectively believe whatever you like by faith.

 

If you start subjectively and by faith, excluding objectivity and evidence from get go - then you might as well finish as you started. 

 

No checking, no testing, no confirmation and no verification desired, required or even possible.

 

Game over!

 

 

Lot of intelligent people consuming the koolaid BAA. I see your point, but...

 

 

But...?

 

You would wish me to say that faith and subjectivity are meaningless?

 

 

No.

 

Faith has some meaning and subjectivity has meaning too.

 

What I would wish is that you'd recognize that objectivity and evidence are meaningful too.

 

And that each comes to the fore at different times, relegating the others to a secondary place.

.

.

.

And hope and love and the others have some meaning and their places too.

 

What I would wish from you is that you'd agree that at certain times and in certain circumstances, objectivity and evidence come to the fore and push faith, subjectivity, hope, love and other things into second place.

 

 

End,

 

Do you recognize that faith, subjectivity, hope, love, evidence and objectivity are all meaningful?

 

And that each comes to the fore at different times, relegating the others to a secondary place?

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

[ironhorse]

I do believe. 

[xIan]

I do believe. 

Oh, you believe in aliens! PMSL. The xian chooses to not know (as opposed to doesn't know!) what "I want to believe" actually means!

[ironhorse]

 

I do believe. 

Oh, you believe in aliens! PMSL. The xian chooses to not know (as opposed to doesn't know!) what "I want to believe" actually means!

 

 

 

I guess you could say I believe in aliens.

 

God came to earth as a human. 

 

Yes, I believe it. 

 

What you choose to believe is your choice. 

[xIan]

 

 

I do believe. 

Oh, you believe in aliens! PMSL. The xian chooses to not know (as opposed to doesn't know!) what "I want to believe" actually means!

 

 

 

I guess you could say I believe in aliens.

 

God came to earth as a human. 

 

Yes, I believe it. 

 

What you choose to believe is your choice. 

 

Lol. You choose to believe that "god" exists, rather than knowing that "god" exists. Thanks for admitting that, finally.

[mymistake]

Might as well include hope, love, and all the others we can't adequately define....

 

 

We can define all those terms.  They all have meaning.  Perhaps the point is that it doesn't mean your faith is justified or well placed.

[mymistake]

 

 

I do believe. 

Oh, you believe in aliens! PMSL. The xian chooses to not know (as opposed to doesn't know!) what "I want to believe" actually means!

 

 

 

I guess you could say I believe in aliens.

 

God came to earth as a human. 

 

Yes, I believe it. 

 

What you choose to believe is your choice. 

 

 

 

It's not a choice so much as a matter of indoctrination.  People who are indoctrinated in Christianity will believe Christianity.  People who are indoctrinated in Islam will believe Islam.  Those indoctrinated in Hindu will believe Hindu.  You "choose" your religion because you were born in one part of the world rather than another.

[bornagainathiest]

I do believe. 

 

Why?