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Goodbye Jesus

I Just Don't Understand


Daffodil

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Got an email today from a friend at my old church (which is now my current church again, despite my atheism - long story) and was taken aback. She has converted to Catholicism. She and I have an interesting history, theologically. Our kids are the same age and sex and are close friends. She and I became friends because of them and discovered we had a lot in common, including our frustration with the bible. We used to get together regularly and talk very openly about our beliefs. However, as her life became consumed with studying to become a midwife, we stopped meeting together and only kept in contact for the kids. During that time, I took the final step of deconverting and stopped going to church. The email was an invitation to have my kids over again and she excitedly told me she's about to enter the Catholic Church after taking the RCIA classes.

 

What just confounds me is the path that has lead her to this. She was raised conservative Mennonite. Women wear skirts and never cut their hair, etc. Her mother was excommunicated after a lifetime in the church just for cutting her hair for purely utilitarian reasons (!). She married an evangelical and started going to his church. She and I both toyed around with Catholicism, but for me it was just a brief sojourn on my deconversion journey. She has apparently bought into it wholesale.

 

She is a very well-read, intelligent, hippy-momma. She homeschools her kids, not because she wanted to shelter them, but because she felt they were being held back (they were reading well above their age range). She lets them read and study any topic they choose, not restricting them to "approved" Christian texts. She was a high school English teacher for awhile and believes in evolution. She is VERY progressive. How did this happen!? How does someone who uses her brain fully make a choice like this? How does she not get it? She is definitely more of a "feeler" than I am, but still!

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She is definitely more of a "feeler" than I am, but still!

 

There you have it, most likely. Some people are simply on the look out for something more than what the life of mundane reality offers us: a deeper sense of purpose and all that jazz. I can sympathize with that. If Catholicism gives her that sense of purpose, and she's not turning into a superstitious raving lunatic - which seems unlikely going by what you've told us - why even bother?

 

Just my 2 cents of course.

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But the things she has to turn a blind eye to: the Catholic Church's stance on birth control, women's roles in the church, patriarchy . . . I just could never compromise those things now that I know what I know!

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As the other poster said, "feeler".

 

Imo, bingo, bango, bongo. At the end of all the analysis, imo, it's a social club.

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But the things she has to turn a blind eye to: the Catholic Church's stance on birth control, women's roles in the church, patriarchy . . . I just could never compromise those things now that I know what I know!

 

Nor could I turn a blind eye to any of it now Daffodil. I could barely do it when I considered myself a fairly good christian. The thing is is that most of us turned a blind eye even when we attended church. I know I did. Back then, I was not ready to face the full truth because there were aspects of the church that I completely enjoyed.... like the community of friends, feeling supported by those people, hearing a lovely sermon on 'love' which would help me to be a better person during that week and the music.....and always of course, hoping more than anything in the world that god truly existed and would help me with all my struggles.

 

I really feel that this is why people who still go to church have no other choice except for to 'turn a blind eye'. It's the other stuff they enjoy. When you come out of the closet like we have, we lose a lot and there is a tremendous amount of grieving that goes along with learning and accepting the truth.

 

This could possible be the reasons she wants to stay. There are brilliant people who go to church. Probably for some of the reasons I stated above. Like rjn already stated, if she is not driving you nuts to get 'saved' or commending you in anyway, maybe you could still enjoy the friendship?

 

(hug)

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But the things she has to turn a blind eye to: the Catholic Church's stance on birth control, women's roles in the church, patriarchy . . . I just could never compromise those things now that I know what I know!

 

 

Nor could I turn a blind eye to any of it now Daffodil. I could barely do it when I considered myself a fairly good christian. The thing is is that most of us turned a blind eye even when we attended church. I know I did. Back then, I was not ready to face the full truth because there were aspects of the church that I completely enjoyed.... like the community of friends, feeling supported by those people, hearing a lovely sermon on 'love' which would help me to be a better person during that week and the music.....and always of course, hoping more than anything in the world that god truly existed and would help me with all my struggles.

 

I really feel that this is why people who still go to church have no other choice except for to 'turn a blind eye'. It's the other stuff they enjoy. When you come out of the closet like we have, we lose a lot and there is a tremendous amount of grieving that goes along with learning and accepting the truth.

 

This could possible be the reasons she wants to stay. There are brilliant people who go to church. Probably for some of the reasons I stated above. Like rjn already stated, if she is not driving you nuts to get 'saved' or commending you in anyway, maybe you could still enjoy the friendship?

 

(hug)

Oh, I'm not going to write her off or anything. I just don't know how our conversation will go when we catch up over coffee in a few weeks when she's got time. I'm going to keep it focused on her and her conversion and keep my thoughts to myself, I guess. She's a great person and our kids are great friends, so I don't want to ruin that. It's just hard to disregard what I know now and relate with people I feel are believing a fairytale.

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It sounds to me like she is looking for something new, to break out of the church crap she's currently experiencing (whatever that may be: theological, social, boredom, etc.). So perhaps she is moving to a grass-is-greener new club. New people, new social opportunities, new opportunities to serve and "grow", new ways of looking at the bible, a fresh start. But we all know, she is going to face the same dilemmas she has already experienced: evil church people, messed up theology, women's issues, unanswered questions, and the list could go on and on.

 

I bet she knew, like you did, that something was not right. You chose to get the hell out altogether, but she is giving it another go with a different flavor of religion. Based on your description of her, I think she will eventually see the dead end she has embarked upon.

 

It could take years, but going Roman Catholic could be the thing that makes her finally see through her fog. Patriarchy, praying to dead saints, pedophile priests, constant internal fears about good works versus salvation through faith, wondering why god lets bad things happen -- oh so many mind fucks.

 

She sounds a lot like me in many ways. I chose the mid-wife route for my birth and totally believe in that mid set, and I'm kind of a hippy-momma homeschooler for similar reasons, and I'm into natural healing and nutrition and all that hippy-dippy stuff. But I too had to give one last dive-in-head-first go with my faith. I was gungho for several years, until it all came crashing down. Manipulative people, esteem-crushing sinner theology, unanswered prayers, complete burn-out, betrayal by people who "loved me", and I could go on. I see this as her last-ditch effort to get it right, to find the truth, to be the christian she feels she needs to be.

 

I'd say to you... Don't sweat it too much. It's going to suck sitting back and watching her go this route. I hope she doesn't drag you into it too much along the way. Maybe she'll stick with it forever and really find her peace with it, but I would bet this is just the final leg of her journey to the real truth... christianity is bullshit.

 

I have two long-time atheist friends who weathered my crazy christian last-ditch effort for those several years. They celebrated my music I was doing, listened when I bitched about church politics, cheered my victories and scowled at my defeats, answered intelligently my theological questions (interesting perspectives!), and gave me comfort as I finally eased out of the faith altogether. Wow, I can't believe how patient they were with me. I must have been annoying as hell sometimes!

 

We all have our journeys. Hers is taking a detour, sigh... Just keep being a good friend. No need for confrontations or long discussions about faith. I personally think she'll get there on her own, and you will be the steady friend who "gets" her.

 

Yeah, this is awkward right now. But you'll be great, I know!

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My best friend became a Catholic after years of ultra-pentecostalism. The traditions, the low-key environment, rituals, sense of "ancient" ways, etc, was for him a welcome change from the intense emotions of fundy church. He was never interested in deconverting, just finding a calmer and quieter path. His wife at the time wanted me to dissuade him, but it made perfect sense for who he is as a person. This way he still gets to still cling to Jesus (and drink beer), but (and this may sound odd for Catholicism) isn't pounded with guilt and shame at church and by "friends" that want to monitor his thoughts and words. I've found that those who are raised in Catholicism tend to get the guilt trip a lot more than converts.

 

I imagine that your friend finds some of the trappings to be attractive, and possibly social circles. We tend to want to fit in with our friends, and will often adopt their ways to feel a part of the group.

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It's simple. Catholicism has become the new acceptable 'hip' faith since people basically read whatever they want into the Pope and all that he and his church stand for.

 

Nobody seriously thinks that the issues that the RCC fundamentally believes are true or relevant to them anymore. It's become a generic 'feel good' social club that promises heaven after you die, pretty much no matter what you do or don't do here on earth. It's easy. It feels good. Everyone's doing it...

I hate the pope, but I have to give him credit - he's done a great job of distracting people away from what the RCC officially teaches. He's extremely adept at carefully avoiding conflict with conciliatory language that belies what he really believes. I see the pope as one of the worlds worst, slimiest and dishonest politicians, which makes sense when you consider he's head of one of it's oldest and wealthiest institutions.

 

Ask the millions upon millions of RCC women how they are on birth control when their church officially bans that idea as heretical (i.e. punishable by hellfire)? Nobody actually believes what they claim to believe anymore and nobody has the courage to just admit that they no longer believe it.

 

Drives me nuts. :)

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I think that from what you've described of her catholicism makes sense. She gets to keep her faith and the nice social side of church and the rituals and litergy, lighting candles and saying prayers, without any of the crazy pentecostal shit. And whilst the church as a whole can be pretty awful like most organised religions, they also have a wide spectrum of believers and priests. They have very liberal intellectual thinkers within the church community. 

 

If I were to become a church goer again I'd definitely opt for either RC or anglican. Nice ritual, services, tea and biscuits and very little else.

 

For me it's the turning a blind eye to the bigger picture that I'd find hard, but I have many friends in the church who fight and campaign against things like anti-homosexuality, anti-women in leadership, anti-abortion, anti-contraception etc. 

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To be honest, what makes sense to any one person will always seem to a greater or lesser extent inexplicable to those with another viewpoint.  I have no idea why anyone would become a Catholic.  Actually, I have no idea why anyone would join any organised religion.  But if that's what floats their proverbial boat...

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