Gravitational Waves. (Hopefully...not Another False Alarm.)

100 years after Einstein predicted the existence of gravitational waves, the National Science Foundation gathers scientists from Caltech, MIT and the LIGO Scientific Collaboration to update the scientific community on efforts to detect them.

(Washington, DC) -- Journalists are invited to join the National Science Foundation as it brings together the scientists from Caltech, MIT and the LIGO Scientific Collaboration (LSC) this Thursday at 10:30 a.m. at the National Press Club for a status report on the effort to detect gravitational waves - or ripples in the fabric of spacetime - using the Laser Interferometer Gravitational-wave Observatory (LIGO).

This year marks the 100th anniversary of the first publication of Albert Einstein's prediction of the existence of gravitational waves. With interest in this topic piqued by the centennial, the group will discuss their ongoing efforts to observe gravitational waves.

LIGO, a system of two identical detectors carefully constructed to detect incredibly tiny vibrations from passing gravitational waves, was conceived and built by MIT and Caltech researchers, funded by the National Science Foundation, with significant contributions from other U.S. and international partners. The twin detectors are located in Livingston, Louisiana, and Hanford, Washington. Research and analysis of data from the detectors is carried out by a global group of scientists, including the LSC, which includes the GEO600 Collaboration, and the VIRGO Collaboration.

February 10, 2016

I will be watching the announcement live. Here.

http://www.nature.com/news/ligo-live-inside-the-hunt-for-gravitational-waves-1.19344

.

Peter Woit's comments.

http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/

Gravitational Wave Predictions

Posted on February 10, 2016 by woit

I think I can confidently predict that tomorrow morning either one of two things will happen:

The first observation of gravitational waves will be reported by the LIGO experiment.
A large fraction of the scientific community will be really, really angry at members of the LIGO collaboration.

I’m betting on the first of these two alternatives, and like everyone else will be watching to see what happens tomorrow. If you want some informed commentary on what it all means though, this isn’t the place (what I know about gravitational radiation is basically the little that I learned in a GR course about 40 years ago…), so for now I’ll leave comments closed.

One place advertising a live feed is Nature. I’ll be happy to list better possibilities here if people let me know about them.

February 11, 2016

Care to explain in layman terms why this is so exciting?

February 11, 2016

You didn't PM me, BAA? I'm hurt!

OK not really; I admit that I spend far more time here talking about Christianity than astrophysics. Perhaps this is partly because since defecting to private industry, I've shifted focus to my new research interest of machine learning. Still, I try to keep abreast of the more important results in astronomy, and since I have a friend who is a current member of the LIGO collaboration, I was made aware about the upcoming announcement.

I agree that the two possibilities you listed cover the space of available outcomes tomorrow morning. Rjn, to answer your question: general relativity posits that spacetime behaves mathematically like a tense membrane (e.g. a rubber sheet), where matter acts as heavy objects on this membrane. Therefore, displacement of matter produces waves in spacetime. Certain phenomena in space such as massive bodies in a mutual orbit (e.g. a binary star system with a neutron star) are candidates for strong gravitational waves. Physicists have set up an enormous laser interferometer across the country consisting of two facilities, and in theory a gravitational wave passing through the earth would cause detectable vibrations in the beams sent between these facilities. As originally designed, the system wasn't able to detect gravity waves, however the recent upgrades promised to make detection possible.

Typically in fields such as high energy physics and astrophysics, to claim discovery of a signal requires a statistical significance of 5 standard deviations above background noise; this corresponds to less than a one in three-million chance that the discovery is in fact a background fluctuation. I'm not familiar with the LIGO data analysis process, but chances are that they require a rigorous criterion such as this, and that LIGO analysts have in fact made such a detection. In the collaboration that I worked for in graduate school, two independent research groups were required to make a statistically significant detection using different analysis software in order to publish a result, and it is likely that LIGO has a similar internal review process. So if they claim detection of gravity waves tomorrow, you can be quite certain that their result is legitimate!

As a physicist, I of course appreciate that they would be announcing this discovery a mere year after the centennial of Einstein's seminal paper on general relativity.

February 11, 2016

Care to explain in layman terms why this is so exciting?

BAA will give his take on this further you can be sure

Gravitational waves was the last major prediction of general relativity (GR), Einstein's theory of gravity, that remained unobserved. To date such waves have not been claimed as a success concerning this prediction of the theory. When gravity waves are finally observed/ announced (maybe tomorrow) some would say that this is the last major hurtle GR needed to pass to silence its few remaining critiques. Stronger GR and Big Bang advocates and enthusiasts might say more grandiose things like -- this is "one of the biggest scientific discoveries of our time, filling in a major gap in our understanding of how the universe was born." I am pleased concerning their discovery since hundreds of millions of dollars and decades of work have been spent looking for them. Most would believe that this discovery will justify its costs.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From a different perspective such waves have been predicted for about 200 years by aether theorists to the present day. Einstein made some interesting quotes regarding gravity waves, that used to be called aether waves:

Albert Einstein in 1894 or 1895: ”The velocity of a wave is proportional to the square root of the elastic forces which cause [its] propagation, and inversely proportional to the mass of the aether moved by these forces."

Albert Einstein in 1920: ”We may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an aether. According to the general theory of relativity space without aether is unthinkable....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aether_theories

In 1955 Einstein wrote:

"I consider it quite possible that physics cannot be based on the field concept,
            that is, on continuous structures. Then nothing remains of my entire castle in
            the air, including the theory of gravitation, but also nothing of the rest of
            modern physics."

http://www.esotericscience.com/aether.aspx

February 11, 2016

In the interests of full declaration, would Pantheory please tell us his views on Astrology and Psychic Channeling?

The link he gave in the previous post... http://www.esotericscience.com/aether.aspx...originates from a site which also covers these two subjects.

http://www.esotericscience.com/BackgroundA.aspx

http://www.esotericscience.com/Background.aspx

Thank you,

BAA.

February 11, 2016

Care to explain in layman terms why this is so exciting?

In a nutshell rjn, this news is exciting because (if bona fide) it ushers in a new era of astronomical and cosmological exploration.

Up to now scientists have relied upon using the electromagnetic spectrum to investigate the universe. (Visible light is a small portion of that spectrum.) But if LIGO has made the suspected breakthrough, then we'll be able to 'hear' as well as 'see' what's happening in the cosmos. These two graphics should help.

Thanks,

BAA.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE ELECTROMAGNETIC SPECTRUM

February 11, 2016

I read the explanation, looked at the graphics and I'm still lost. I don't understand the significance of the "hearing" part.

What are we expecting to hear?

The other day, my mom said something about a new telescope that would allow us to see gravity waves. Is this what this is about? Or was she blurting out stuff my dad repeated to her from one of his weird right-wing radio stations?

February 11, 2016

I read the explanation, looked at the graphics and I'm still lost. I don't understand the significance of the "hearing" part.

What are we expecting to hear?

The other day, my mom said something about a new telescope that would allow us to see gravity waves. Is this what this is about? Or was she blurting out stuff my dad repeated to her from one of his weird right-wing radio stations?

This video should help explain things, Fwee.

Try thinking of earthquakes for an earthly analog.

They're vibrations (waves) of energy discharged from the earthquake epicenter that radiate outwards thru the solid rock of the Earth. In a not dissimilar way, when a violent event happens in deep space, gravitational waves radiate outwards, stretching and squeezing the fabric of space in way that LIGO should be able to detect.

We'll find out in a few hours.

Thanks,

BAA.

February 11, 2016

Maybe I'm getting too old... I watched the video. Somewhat understood it. Then I realized I don't recognize anything important about this supposed discovery.

February 11, 2016

I don't understand much of it myself, but I still enjoy the announcement because once upon a time I was a Star Trek geek.

February 11, 2016

If it's discovered 100 years after Einstein predicted it I'm excited even if I have no understanding of it.

Keep discovering.

February 11, 2016

In the interests of full declaration, would Pantheory please tell us his views on Astrology and Psychic Channeling?

Although I think that I am experienced at spotting references to religion in an article, I missed this one. Some sites written by believers are well written IMO, like the part of this link that I read, from which I copied the Einstein quote. But if I would have known the total views of the author I wouldn't have used this link, Sorry. In this case I missed the Hindu reference on a previous page.

As to Astrology and Psychic channeling (as well as belief in any and all religions) -- 'BS' is probably my most concise description of what I think of these beliefs and practices.

February 11, 2016

To Fwethawt, MyMistake and Jeff...

Ok, this is exotic stuff.

But here's a list of what I understand are some of the implications of this momentous discovery.

1.

This is another confirmation of one of Einstein's predictions of General Relativity. It therefore gives us a lot more confidence in that particular theory. The fact that the signal detection announced today is a ringer (pun intended! ) for the one created beforehand in a computer simulation is highly significant. Prediction and detection agree.

2.

This is a vindication of the design of the LIGO instruments and a powerful demonstration to an increasingly skeptical public of how science accurately predicts and describes reality.

3.

It's also a vindication of money well-spent by the NSF and a glowing testament to their long-standing support and commitment to cutting-edge American science.

4.

Just as Galileo's use of the telescope revolutionized optical astronomy 400 years ago, so the new era of gravitational astronomy can begin. If it's a little hard to understand how this might happen, please think about how medical science has had to devise non-invasive techniques to 'see' and 'hear' inside the 'closed box' of the living human body. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_imaging Each method of imaging and listening opens up new ways of understanding how human beings work on the inside. In a not dissimilar way, the ability to detect gravitational waves gives us the opportunity to see and hear the workings of black holes, neutron stars, supernovae and other extremely violent events in the distant universe.

5.

An outworking of #4 will be a huge impact on our understanding of gravity.

There will be many new scientific papers published on the back of LIGO's new data and also the forthcoming flood of data from the other gravitational wave detectors under construction.

6.

An outworking of #5 will be harnessing our new and improved understanding of gravity to yield a better and more accurate picture of the very early universe and perhaps even, it's ultimate origin.

7.

LIGO is a 'proof of concept' project that has now demonstrated that gravitational waves DO exist and that we CAN detect them.

This success is a powerful boost to other projects in this field, both current and planned. What has been learned with LIGO can be applied elsewhere. Launched Dec 3 last year, the Lisa Pathfinder satellite is now preparing to search for gravitational waves from an observation position in Earth orbit. http://sci.esa.int/lisa-pathfinder/

http://sci.esa.int/lisa-pathfinder/56936-why-lisa-pathfinder/

The European Space Agency is considering a future mission called eLISA which will use similar techniques to LIGO (laser interferometry) but on a vastly larger scale.

https://www.elisascience.org/articles/elisa-mission/elisa-mission-gravitational-universe

https://www.elisascience.org/articles/elisa-mission/mission-concept

Instead of laser arms measuring 4 kms, eLISA will bounce lasers back and forth between three satellites separated by a million (1,000,000) kilometers. The vast scale of eLISA will represent a giant leap in gravitational wave detection sensitivity, far exceeding what LIGO is capable of. It's a bit like comparing what you can see with a hand-held telescope to what a giant Keck observatory can see. http://www.keckobservatory.org/

8.

As far as this forum and Christian apologetics in general go, today's LIGO announcement could well be significant. (Tho' I'm still checking this one out.)

If so, then this news could well have a devastating effect on the ministry of a certain well-known Christian apologist and philosopher. This person relies on a certain aspect of Einstein's theory of General Relativity to make a case for the Christian God of the Bible creating this universe from a gravitational singularity. If it turns out that gravity is dominated by quantum physics at very small scales then it will be impossible for the spacetime continuum to be infinitely compressed to zero size. Instead, spacetime itself could well be quantized and broken up into discrete units of irreducible size. (Speculative!) Thus ruling out a singularity. And blowing this person's argument out of the water!

.

Thanks,

BAA.

February 11, 2016

In the interests of full declaration, would Pantheory please tell us his views on Astrology and Psychic Channeling?

Although I think that I am experienced at spotting references to religion in an article, I missed this one. Some sites written by believers are well written IMO, like the part of this link that I read, from which I copied the Einstein quote. But if I would have known the total views of the author I wouldn't have used this link, Sorry. In this case I missed the Hindu reference on a previous page.

As to Astrology and Psychic channeling (as well as belief in any and all religions) -- 'BS' is probably my most concise description of these beliefs and practices.

Thank you for this, Pantheory.

February 11, 2016

Hot damn!

February 11, 2016

A more metaphorical way of looking at the magnitude of this discovery is to imagine you are deaf. You see, until now, virtually all of our knowledge of the cosmos has been through observing the electromagnetic spectrum. In other words, light. To be fair, we have made a massive amount of progress by "looking" at the universe in this way. If this gravitational wave concept pans out however; we will in essence have a completely new and novel way to examine the universe. We will in a sense, be like a YouTube video of some person hearing for the first time. An entirely new and potentially groundbreaking way of examining the universe may very well be opening up to humanity. In essence, we may now begin to "hear" the universe as well as see it. This could facilitate stunning breakthroughs in our understanding of the universe and I cannot begin to predict how this could impact humanity in terms of cultural zeitgeist and technological advancements.

February 11, 2016

Exciting! Thank you BAA.

So is this a case of a theory's doing what a scientific theory is supposed to do? Enable scientists to make predictions, which eventually can be confirmed or disconfirmed, so that another step is achieved?

Sounds like it!

This today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

February 12, 2016

Thanks for the explanation folks. Not sure I get all of it, and I haven't checked out any of the videos yet, but I think I get the gist of it.

February 12, 2016

Exciting! Thank you BAA.

So is this a case of a theory's doing what a scientific theory is supposed to do? Enable scientists to make predictions, which eventually can be confirmed or disconfirmed, so that another step is achieved?

Sounds like it!

This today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/12/science/ligo-gravitational-waves-black-holes-einstein.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

And a similar (but not so spectacular) example of a confirmed prediction happened in 1987, Ficino.

Three neutrino observatories (in the US, in Japan and in Russia) detected a spike in their rate of neutrino detections.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_1987A

Although the actual neutrino count was only 24, it was a significant rise from the previously observed background level. This was the first time neutrinos known to be emitted from a supernova had been observed directly, which marked the beginning of neutrino astronomy. The observations were consistent with theoretical supernova models in which 99% of the energy of the collapse is radiated away in the form of neutrinos. The observations are also consistent with the models' estimates of a total neutrino count of 10⁵⁸ with a total energy of 10⁴⁶ joules.

That confirmed prediction enabled me to use it as a challenge to Funguyrye. Remember him?

http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/60105-a-challenge-to-funguyrye/page-1#.Vr2R0_mLRD9

Now, with LIGO confirming Einstein's prediction, it'll be possible to issue a DOUBLE challenge to any Christians who call the predictive power of science into question!

Thanks,

BAA.

February 12, 2016

But it's only a theory! and Darwin converted on his deathbed! And why do we still have monkeys?

We can't be sure that what these scientists are talking about isn't a HOAX to get grant money and fame. My brother in law knows a janitor who works at the lab who told him that another janitor heard a conversation about how it was a hoax.

February 12, 2016

But it's only a theory! ................................................................

We can't be sure that what these scientists are talking about isn't a HOAX to get grant money and fame. My brother in law knows a janitor who works at the lab who told him that another janitor heard a conversation about how it was a hoax.

Good to always be a little bit skeptical of science theory IMO but Einstein's gravity theory would be nothing without its equations. And Einstein's General Relativity equations are the basis for the prediction of gravity waves, just like the theory of aether predicted such waves before Einstein.

http://aetherwavetheory.blogspot.com/2009/06/awt-and-gravity.html

Yes, it's only a theory but it has been very successful concerning volumes the size of the solar system and today it is accepted by almost all of mainstream science and is the primary mathematics of the Big Bang model. Because we are talking equations and not words, it cannot be a hoax, only the claim of gravity waves may not be correct, but they were observed in two different locations at the same time, a continent apart, with a signal and of a form within the range predicted by the theory and by its resultant computer simulations.

To the theory's credit, General Relativity (GR) has made a number of predictions different from Newton's gravity equations. GR was first observed to be correct before GR was considered or accepted by mainstream physics. The equations themselves predict gravity waves.

They are called gravity waves because they are accordingly created by very massive bodies (very strong gravity), presently thought to be black holes, orbiting very tightly with each other, then merging. To call them gravity waves may be a misnomer because they are not the source of gravity but the name has stuck for about a century now.

----------------------------------------------------------

Yes, GR could be a wrong theory at galactic scales and of the universe as a whole, because at these scales it does not work unless 80% of all matter in the universe is dark matter which has never been observed.

Einstein believed strongly in his theory of gravity, General Relativity, but did consider the possibility that it might be wrong when he said in the mid 1950's:

" I consider it quite possible that physics cannot be based on the field concept,

that is, on continuous structures. Then nothing remains of my entire castle in

the air, including the theory of gravitation, but also nothing of the rest of

modern physics ."

modernphysicsandrelativity

February 12, 2016

ficino,

.....Darwin converted on his deathbed!

Since I saw no happy face in your statement I will assume that your questions above were sincere and not just joking around. In this light I will give you answers. But if you were just putting us on then that would be OK too

Charles Darwin's deathbed conversion in which it was claimed by Lady Hope that Darwin supposedly said:

"How I wish I had not expressed my theory of evolution as I have done." He went on to say that he would like her to gather a congregation since he "would like to speak to them of Christ Jesus and His salvation, being in a state where he was eagerly savoring the heavenly anticipation of bliss."Lady Hope's story was printed in the Boston Watchman Examiner. The story spread, and the claims were republished as late as October 1955 in the Reformation Review and in the Monthly Record of the Free Church of Scotland in February 1957. Lady Hope's story is not supported by Darwin's children. Darwin's son Francis Darwin accused her of lying, saying that "Lady Hope's account of my father's views on religion is quite untrue. I have publicly accused her of falsehood, but have not seen any reply." Darwin's daughter Henrietta Litchfield also called the story a fabrication, saying "I was present at his deathbed. Lady Hope was not present..." nor was she present at any of his illnesses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deathbed_conversion

And why do we still have monkeys?

"Evolution is the change in populations, not in individuals. Evolution is not a process in which species universally progress up a "ladder".
Humans are not descended from any modern species of monkey; both monkeys and humans are descended from some long-extinct ancestor pre-dating both. Although this species, if it were transferred to today, would be considered a "monkey", it is not any living species of monkey.
Evolution explains how humans developed from a primate ancestor, but not an extant species of monkey or ape. Modern primates include: bonobos, chimpanzees, gorillas, baboons, macaques, lemurs, gibbons, and humans. None of these is a descendant of any other.
Speciation can occur by branching into two or more reproductively isolated populations or when a single population changes over time to such an extent that the later population is considered a different species."

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/How_come_there_are_still_monkeys%3F

February 12, 2016

But it's only a theory! ................................................................

We can't be sure that what these scientists are talking about isn't a HOAX to get grant money and fame. My brother in law knows a janitor who works at the lab who told him that another janitor heard a conversation about how it was a hoax.

Good to always be a little bit skeptical of science theory IMO but Einstein's gravity theory would be nothing without its equations. And Einstein's General Relativity equations are the basis for the prediction of gravity waves, just like the theory of aether predicted such waves before Einstein.

http://aetherwavetheory.blogspot.com/2009/06/awt-and-gravity.html

Yes, it's only a theory but it has been very successful concerning volumes the size of the solar system and today it is accepted by almost all of mainstream science and is the primary mathematics of the Big Bang model. Because we are talking equations and not words, it cannot be a hoax, only the claim of gravity waves may not be correct, but they were observed in two different locations at the same time, a continent apart, with a signal and of a form within the range predicted by the theory and by its resultant computer simulations.

To the theory's credit, General Relativity (GR) has made a number of predictions different from Newton's gravity equations. GR was first observed to be correct before GR was considered or accepted by mainstream physics. The equations themselves predict gravity waves.

They are called gravity waves because they are accordingly created by very massive bodies (very strong gravity), presently thought to be black holes, orbiting very tightly with each other, then merging. To call them gravity waves may be a misnomer because they are not the source of gravity but the name has stuck for about a century now.

----------------------------------------------------------

Yes, it could be a wrong theory at galactic scales and of the universe, because at these scales it does not work unless 80% of all matter in the universe is dark matter which has never been observed.

Einstein believed strongly in his theory of gravity, General Relativity, but did consider the possibility that it might be wrong when he said in the mid 1950's:

" I consider it quite possible that physics cannot be based on the field concept,

            that is, on continuous structures. Then nothing remains of my entire castle in

            the air, including the theory of gravitation, but also nothing of the rest of

            modern physics ."

modernphysicsandrelativity

Please don't forget Pantheory that when Einstein penned his theory of General Relativity, he did so in the firm belief that the universe was static and eternal.

Yet, less than a decade later, he readily accepted Hubble's evidence for an expanding, non-eternal universe.

I therefore think we can say that were he alive today, he'd be just as open to persuasion.

So, whatever doubts he expressed should be seen in the context of his readiness to be persuaded by evidence.

Gravitational Waves. (Hopefully...not Another False Alarm.)

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