My Marriage Is Dying A Slow Death

[CircesSong]

Hey, CircesSong, I just wanted to say - I'm sorry you're going through this. Someone tipped me off elsenet that you were here and my heart just went out to you when I read your post. You're not alone. I'm the one who wrote the Promises post mentioned earlier and I still totally feel the way I wrote about a couple of years ago. I don't have specific advice beyond to proceed carefully, which it sounds like you're already dedicated to doing. Your situation is very serious and I agree with the earlier poster who thinks you could benefit from a secular counselor, whether or not your husband wishes to go with you -- but I do want to gently add to the excellent folks here that if you just muscle through this period and keep your head high and your feet on the high road, it will work out one way or the other. It always does. It hurts like hell along the way though.

 

Only the person directly involved can know where their line is, and sometimes someone might choose to pay a price that others wouldn't pay, or balk at paying one that others would. It's your life, and your finite time on the planet: do what you think best. It can be scary at first but you've got a lot of company. Best wishes... and congrats on this heady new period of discovery!

Thank you. I agree, the path for each person is very different depending on many factors. At times, even considering divorce seems ridiculous. He is a good father, works tirelessly to provide, and the children enjoy many enrichment activities and a warm school life. The benefit of living in financial stability and the comfort of an intact family unit goes without saying. Unexpected spiritual incompatibility can seem very "first world problem-ish" at times. At other times, the loneliness and lack of meaningful connection due to different world views feels paramount and stifling.

 

Combined w scorn from select few family members who get the drift of my departure from Christianity, and the knowledge of the shit storm that would happen if everyone knew, it becomes so much to bear.

[CircesSong]

 

Hello, all. Thank you for listening to my story.

 

I grew up in a family deeply entrenched in a cult-like sect of ultra-consertive Christianity. We're talking women don't wear pants and don't even think about speaking in church, rock music is evil, and go to an like-minded "college" to "find a man" and settle down for a long life of skirt-wearing baby-raising. The more baby-voiced, giggly, and non-thinking the woman, the more she was accepted and praised.

 

I spent years at a college like this before somehow realizing it was a joke. But it didn't occur to me that the joke was Christianity, just the particular sect I was in. I made the bold at-that-time choice to leave the college and my home church, and began attending a more liberal-minded Christian church in town. I revered the new people I was around. In my sheltered mind, they were enlightened and intellectual, diving into Calvinist texts while sipping on good wine and puffing on cigars.

 

I married a man from this church. I thought my life was golden from now on, surrounded by people who "got it". Oh, we were soo enlightened, so much smarter than all of the other Christians who were still limping along with their silly emotional views of people needing to come to Jesus for salvation. Didn't they know how OBVIOUS it is that God is 100% sovereign, damning billions to hell because he's so righteous? (insert eye roll).

 

We went on to have many children and even adopted out of Christian obligation, ala Russell Moore "Adopted for Life" paradigm. (If I ever was in a room with Russell Moore, he might be a little scared with the smoke and fire blowing out of my nostrils at the outright stupidity he is pushing on innocent young Christian families caught up in the pressured, guilt-trip fervor with none of the preparation, support, and expertise needed to deal with institutionalized behavior).

 

It was at this time, after seeking professional help for the severe problems the adoption introduced into my family, that I began to see the ineptitude of the Christian response to life's troubles. It was small-minded, shallow, impractical, infuriating, misguided, and wrong. The seed was planted in my mind.

 

My descent, or ascent depending on your view, into atheism began. It started with reading a few NT Wright books, where I was introduced to the model of evaluating the Bible critically and not taking the inerrancy model hook, line and sinker. That led me to Peter Enns, Rob Bell, Rachel Held Evans. I was stunned. At no time in my intellectual/academic life had I allowed myself to read/question the Biblical innerancy so drilled upon me in my youth (which is shocking considering I am a deep thinker and reader of thousands of books in my young life at that point). The brainwashing is so thick, so complete, that questioning it was like questioning gravity, or the sun, or the earth beneath my feet. Conservative Christianity just WAS.

 

There I sat, mulling the new knowledge of the nature of these ancient, cobbled-together texts. I began voraciously reading Dawkins, Hitchens, Bart Ehrman, and Kenneth Daniels "Why I Believed: Reflections of a Former Missionary". Everything unravelled so quickly. It was just so…clear. Embarrasingly so.

 

So, here I am. I confessed to my husband a couple of years ago. He is is so deeply entrenched and rigid in his Christian beliefs that the sun would dissolve into dust before he would change his mind or be open to reading alternate views. When I told him, he was devastated but has since gone on to avoid the topic completely, so we have a huge, turbulent storm underneath a placid surface. Our children are young and my heart is broken at the thought of them learning the Christian doctrines of hell, inherent sin, etc. It makes my skin crawl and my heart sick to think of their precious young minds being told these terrible, barbaric ideas as fact.

 

I'm living a double life. I'm forced because of the set up of our entire social network, schooling choice, family (everything/one is 100% die-hard Christian), to pretend at this point that I'm still a Christian. I feel so isolated and depressed about it. It is the saddest thing in the world to not be able to be open, true, and honest about who you are. I'm atheist at a cellular level now. If my family and social network knew, I would be shunned like I was wearing a scarlet A. You're in, or you're out. There is no waffling, no doubt, no questioning allowed.

 

I'm so depressed at the thought of living the rest of my life in a marriage where we are so fundamentally different. There is almost no connection now because of this. Sitting in school sessions, events and extracurricular Christian activities is becoming increasingly difficult. It is all so divisive and small-minded, even though the people themselves are kind and good, generally. My children are academically driven, and I want to immerse them in a robust scientific life, but breathing the thought of evolution would most likely get my children and myself KICKED OUT of their academic institution. My husband would flip if I taught the kids evolution as fact. How can I move forward in teaching them the truth of the world when I'm stuck in this situation?

 

I find myself drawn to secular Buddhism and mediation, as the thoughtful processes of evaluating humanity and daily decisions is in keeping with what seems to be a kind, peaceful way to move in relationship with others and the earth. The more I read nonreligious Buddhist books, the more ridiculous and sad Christianity seems.

 

I feel like my marriage is doomed. Perhaps worse than divorce is the promise of living out my life in emotional and intellectual loneliness. His general thought process is that I went into the marriage and made my vows to him as a Christian, and it is my obligation to continue to be a Christian because otherwise he would've never married me.

 

Thank for your reading, and for your kind replies. I'm looking for any advice anyone has in navigating these waters.

 

Your story is quite moving. A possible solution would involve getting a good secular therapist, an excellent lawyer and a job. Although great change is likely in your future, you (and your children) will be better the sooner you escape the religious nonsense and influence.

Thanks. I think if I can at all afford it, I will seek out a secular therapist. I've asked several times for him to go to therapy w me, but he is only willing at best to see a pastor or Christian therapist, and that basically defeats the purpose.

 

I'm very unsure (to say the least), that a separation or divorce would be a positive change in the children's lives long term. I'm fearful of exchanging "my" problem for theirs. At this time, their lives are lovely and they live in ignorance of any of this. Would hate to introduce such significant hardship to them. Not to mention I have no real way of financially supporting myself as my entire 20s were spent pregnant/childbirthing, so no headway was ever made on a career path. But, I guess time will give me my answer. I hope.

[CircesSong]

My experience with counseling couples is that when one or both of them starts demonstrating contempt or condescension, it's hard to pull back.

 

Ask yourself if he is someone you could be married to if religion wasn't an issue. Is he a good husband/partner/dad/whatever? Is he willing to make it work even though you have different beliefs? If so, then go with that.

 

I commented in another post elsewhere that sometimes when people lose their faith, they become like the ex-smoker who wants to belittle and convert everyone. You see comments from new atheists that all church leadership is just into control or that all Christians are less intelligent than all the atheists. But there are a lot of sincere, devout pastors who believe what they are preaching. There are a lot of very intelligent Christians - engineers, doctors, etc. They aren't stupid, they just haven't ever had to confront their faith in a way that really challenged it. As I've said elsewhere, it's like believing in bigfoot. If your belief in bigfoot doesn't lead you to making stupid or harmful decisions, then it's a harmless belief.

I can absolutely see the contempt issue. I feel like I sadly show more contempt for him/his views than he does me. I know this is wrong. In some way, going overboard is a way I get him to listen to me. He more shows sad desperation for me to "come back" to him and "the fold".

 

He is a good father, and loves & provides for me even though we are so fundamentally different and have almost nothing in common. Maybe my answer will be finally being willing to fully come out of the closet and be open and free w my beliefs, and see how he takes that. At this point, it's like a big, shameful secret between he and I. He prays all "Heavenly Father Holy Spirit" etc etc at meals as if nothing ever happened w my beliefs. He answers questions in black and white christianese to the kids in front of me, which hurts me and makes me feel ashamed and isolated.

[GuyGone]

At least for marriage, whether he has integrity, treats you decently (and expects the same) and is a good father (fair, makes a good role model) is more important than whether you think your IQ is 10 points higher than his.

 

In you original post, you express some anger, maybe resentment at your past Christian way of life.  Remember that you also believed it until you had reason not to; your husband so far has no reason not to.  So he hasn't suddenly become inept at all things pertaining to life because you have changed your religious views.  My concern is that you might be transferring some of your anger about the past to your husband; he doesn't deserve that.  You were in it together until you left.  This isn't condemnation in any way, just pointing out that you might be dumping some undeserved anger or resentment on him.  One thing I've always told people is that it is unreasonable to expect someone to be or do something that you wouldn't do if the situation were reversed.

 

It's OK to tell him where you are.  It's not OK to expect him to reach the same destination  you have without going on the same (or a similar) journey.  You can't expect him to get there any faster than you did.  That's a lot of why I wrote my book; I was going through that process mostly alone and there wasn't any resource I could find that really resonated with me.  Even if your husband ends up at the same place you are, it's going to require a trigger to get him started on that path, and then it's going to be a journey.  It's not an event, it's a process.  It was a process for you and even if he eventually reaches the same conclusion, you can't expect it to be an event for him.  He won't instantly get to a place it took you years to find.  And it would be unreasonable to expect him to.

 

Whatever decision you make, be sure it isn't based on resentment.  That's nearly always a bad basis for decisions.

 

As for counseling, if he's willing to do so, find a counselor who is a Christian but isn't in your denomination and is willing to work through the marital issues with you outside of the religious assumptions.  A lot of what happens in Christian pastoral counseling is similar to what happens in secular counseling.  The issues are the same (disrespect, contempt, infidelity, etc.).  A Christian counselor or pastor might put a religious spin on things or ask you to read Biblical-based books or Bible passages, but all of them should be relevant.  It's like my comment about not making decisions based on resentment; that's a biblical principle, but it's applicable to anyone.  Being slow to anger and quick to forgive is a biblical principle, but it's good advice for an atheist as well.  Because the people who wrote the Bible had a lot of experience with life and with human nature, and human nature hasn't changed.  Some principles are nearly universal.  What you two want to work on (I assume) is how to make the marriage work when you no longer have a shared faith.  That's really the core issue, isn't it?

 

I know a lot of people say to just get divorced.  I think sometimes in places like this, they say it because they have a condescending view of all things (and people) Christian.  It's true that the Bible does put some restrictions on divorce and the church does discourage casual divorce.  But it turns out that there are good reasons not to be too quick or casual about divorcing.  Read "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce" by Wallerstein for an excellent study of this.  That's not to say it's never appropriate.  Just that having different religious faiths isn't, by itself, necessarily sufficient reason for it.

[sdelsolray]

 

Thanks. I think if I can at all afford it, I will seek out a secular therapist. I've asked several times for him to go to therapy w me, but he is only willing at best to see a pastor or Christian therapist, and that basically defeats the purpose.

 

I'm very unsure (to say the least), that a separation or divorce would be a positive change in the children's lives long term. I'm fearful of exchanging "my" problem for theirs. At this time, their lives are lovely and they live in ignorance of any of this. Would hate to introduce such significant hardship to them. Not to mention I have no real way of financially supporting myself as my entire 20s were spent pregnant/childbirthing, so no headway was ever made on a career path. But, I guess time will give me my answer. I hope.

 

 

 

Is allowing your children to continue to be indoctrinated with the Calvinist cult dogma along with the attendant psychological and emotional abuse really better for them in the long run? 

[Blue elephant]

There are quite a number of members here that are in a similar position as you, where they have deconverted but the partner still adheres to the Christian faith and there are children involved. Some of them don't post here anymore, so you may find old posts using a search.

 

One thing that folks have reported is that the Christian partner fears that the newly deconverted one is going to abandon themselves to all sorts of horrible sinful behaviour, such as having affairs and drunkenness. Steady reassuring behaviour that shows nothing has changed except your beliefs is a good idea.

 

I also think that former Christians feel too much urge to "come out" and make big announcements. I suspect that this is because there is the whole pressure to testify and preach to others within Christianity. I was once made aware of this type f language by a work colleague with respect to my recommending an iPad to her as opposed to another type of tablet computer! So again, just chill and take your time about things.

 

There are positive values that are taught in the Bible, although many things have contradictory illustrations elsewhere in the Bible. As a first step, pick the parables, stories and illustrations that reinforce the values you want to impart to your children and make sure they get emphasised. I think it is interesting how many of the values espoused by the teaching of Jesus don't get a look in with the U.S. these days. An obvious example is the parable of the Good Samaritan with respect to refugees.

 

Your current church seems quite conservative to me, btw. There are much more liberal standpoints. Am I right in thinking that this Calvinist community believes that only their church is saved and going to Heaven? Where do they stand on "once Sa fed always saved"?

 

There are lots of reasons to try and hold the marriage together while the children are young. Obviously, if things were still the same as they grew up, divorce would be sensible. The difficult thing is that there are a lot of years in between now and then!

[CircesSong]

At least for marriage, whether he has integrity, treats you decently (and expects the same) and is a good father (fair, makes a good role model) is more important than whether you think your IQ is 10 points higher than his.

 

In you original post, you express some anger, maybe resentment at your past Christian way of life. Remember that you also believed it until you had reason not to; your husband so far has no reason not to. So he hasn't suddenly become inept at all things pertaining to life because you have changed your religious views. My concern is that you might be transferring some of your anger about the past to your husband; he doesn't deserve that. You were in it together until you left. This isn't condemnation in any way, just pointing out that you might be dumping some undeserved anger or resentment on him. One thing I've always told people is that it is unreasonable to expect someone to be or do something that you wouldn't do if the situation were reversed.

 

It's OK to tell him where you are. It's not OK to expect him to reach the same destination you have without going on the same (or a similar) journey. You can't expect him to get there any faster than you did. That's a lot of why I wrote my book; I was going through that process mostly alone and there wasn't any resource I could find that really resonated with me. Even if your husband ends up at the same place you are, it's going to require a trigger to get him started on that path, and then it's going to be a journey. It's not an event, it's a process. It was a process for you and even if he eventually reaches the same conclusion, you can't expect it to be an event for him. He won't instantly get to a place it took you years to find. And it would be unreasonable to expect him to.

 

Whatever decision you make, be sure it isn't based on resentment. That's nearly always a bad basis for decisions.

 

As for counseling, if he's willing to do so, find a counselor who is a Christian but isn't in your denomination and is willing to work through the marital issues with you outside of the religious assumptions. A lot of what happens in Christian pastoral counseling is similar to what happens in secular counseling. The issues are the same (disrespect, contempt, infidelity, etc.). A Christian counselor or pastor might put a religious spin on things or ask you to read Biblical-based books or Bible passages, but all of them should be relevant. It's like my comment about not making decisions based on resentment; that's a biblical principle, but it's applicable to anyone. Being slow to anger and quick to forgive is a biblical principle, but it's good advice for an atheist as well. Because the people who wrote the Bible had a lot of experience with life and with human nature, and human nature hasn't changed. Some principles are nearly universal. What you two want to work on (I assume) is how to make the marriage work when you no longer have a shared faith. That's really the core issue, isn't it?

 

I know a lot of people say to just get divorced. I think sometimes in places like this, they say it because they have a condescending view of all things (and people) Christian. It's true that the Bible does put some restrictions on divorce and the church does discourage casual divorce. But it turns out that there are good reasons not to be too quick or casual about divorcing. Read "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce" by Wallerstein for an excellent study of this. That's not to say it's never appropriate. Just that having different religious faiths isn't, by itself, necessarily sufficient reason for it.

I agree with you. Thank you for your words of wisdom. I am resentful of my Christian past (that also involves abuse from Christian leaders), and I have at times held my husbands toes over the fire that he had no part of, just for his shared belief in the doctrines of my youth.

 

He is good, and loving, and a great provider. My goal is to work towards a happy union even in the midst of separate worldview systems. I hope he can meet me somewhere in the middle so we can raise kids together while each feeling respected.

 

I'm going to look for a counselor. I'll also read your book.

[CircesSong]

There are quite a number of members here that are in a similar position as you, where they have deconverted but the partner still adheres to the Christian faith and there are children involved. Some of them don't post here anymore, so you may find old posts using a search.

 

One thing that folks have reported is that the Christian partner fears that the newly deconverted one is going to abandon themselves to all sorts of horrible sinful behaviour, such as having affairs and drunkenness. Steady reassuring behaviour that shows nothing has changed except your beliefs is a good idea.

 

I also think that former Christians feel too much urge to "come out" and make big announcements. I suspect that this is because there is the whole pressure to testify and preach to others within Christianity. I was once made aware of this type f language by a work colleague with respect to my recommending an iPad to her as opposed to another type of tablet computer! So again, just chill and take your time about things.

 

There are positive values that are taught in the Bible, although many things have contradictory illustrations elsewhere in the Bible. As a first step, pick the parables, stories and illustrations that reinforce the values you want to impart to your children and make sure they get emphasised. I think it is interesting how many of the values espoused by the teaching of Jesus don't get a look in with the U.S. these days. An obvious example is the parable of the Good Samaritan with respect to refugees.

 

Your current church seems quite conservative to me, btw. There are much more liberal standpoints. Am I right in thinking that this Calvinist community believes that only their church is saved and going to Heaven? Where do they stand on "once Sa fed always saved"?

 

There are lots of reasons to try and hold the marriage together while the children are young. Obviously, if things were still the same as they grew up, divorce would be sensible. The difficult thing is that there are a lot of years in between now and then!

I hear what you're saying. In my experience and probably many others who are immersed in the Christian subculture, there are many points during conversations, or groups one is teaching or participating in, or "ministries" you're involved in, where it becomes farcical and wrong to continue the facade of belief.

 

Not to mention the irksome gross income 10% tithe that goes out of your bank account to an organization you loathe...

[qadeshet]

Ask him if he can accept you as you are. You will happily return the favor. He needs to join you in any counseling.

[GuyGone]

You might tell him (in your own words, of course) that your feelings and intentions toward him haven't changed as a result of this, because they aren't based on whether you think God exists.  You might be thinking that it goes without saying - but the things we think go without saying are sometimes what need to be said.

[CircesSong]

CircesSong, I can relate to those guilty feelings. I married as a believer and subsequently lost my faith. My wife has accepted this change, but it is still hard to not have a sense of "letting her down." I want to reiterate what a lot of the others on here say: People change, and you can't force yourself to believe something that doesn't make sense. You're not obligated to feign faith, and faith isn't required for you to be a positive moral role model for your kids.. My main concern for you is your isolation. It might be wise to find a professional, non-Christian therapist to walk with you during this stage of life. You need someone "in your corner" regardless of what happens in your marriage.

Thank you for your encouragement. It's unbelievably helpful to hear from those who have gone through something similar. I'm definitely going to find a secular therapist. 

[CircesSong]

You might tell him (in your own words, of course) that your feelings and intentions toward him haven't changed as a result of this, because they aren't based on whether you think God exists.  You might be thinking that it goes without saying - but the things we think go without saying are sometimes what need to be said.

Thanks, GuyGone. 

 

He does need to hear this. He is scared that I'll leave him the second I find someone with whom I relate more. Not that I've ever once told him this is a possibility. It's just his fear. He does need more reassurance from me that regardless of religious views, I still love him. 

 

By the way, I bought your book today and look forward with great interest to reading it. I am interested to learn also that you are a scientist. One of my children is greatly interested in science and is interested in that for a future career (possibly). Which is another reason I began reading the works of leading scientists, because I want to give my children a good grounding in the scientific method, etc. But I find within conservative Christianity the roadblocks of evolution and the general scientific method are so antithetical to Christianity that it is difficult to have a robust learning environment while staying true to "faith". 

 

Thank you for your time and advice. 

[GuyGone]

You are very welcome.  Let me know if you get anything out of the book.

 

As for the science thing, I know a number of engineers and scientists who are Christians.  Obviously if someone wants to be an evolutionary biologist or something like that, creationism gets in the way.  But it doesn't interfere with other sciences such as chemistry, engineering, even microbiology.  It might seem that you can't mix microbiology with creationism, but a lot of microbiologists aren't working on anything that is dependent on evolution.

[Jedah]

 

How can I move forward in teaching them the truth of the world when I'm stuck in this situation?

 

It is very possible to teach a child to be a non believer without actually teaching them non belief. All religions are flawed in some way or another that causes them to fail bullshit detection tests.

 

What I am saying is that instead of raising little atheists, you can raise intelligent critical thinkers. Imbue values of intellectual honesty and a desire for truth seeking. Show them why a pseudoscience cannot possibly be true. Introduce them to the fine art of baloney detection ( Carl Sagan ).

 

https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/03/baloney-detection-kit-carl-sagan/

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345409469/

 

There are many other good books and other media out there that simply teach rational thinking without specifically attempting to debunk Christian dogma.

 

Just a few examples:

Pseudoscience and Extraordinary Claims of the Paranormal: A Critical Thinker's Toolkit - Jonathan C. Smith

Penn & Tellers Bullshit! series.

Critical thinking skills for Dummies

 

When they grow up, they can realize that Christianity fails the bullshit inspection test for themselves.

[Insightful]

Hi CircesSong,

 

Thank you so much for sharing your story.  You actually posted on my thread a week or two ago, "Trying to Save My Marriage -1 Year Later".  WOW - the similarities in our stories are CRAZY:

 

Calvinism - CHECK.

Adopted a la Russel Moore / adopted for life - CHECK.

Major adoption-related-behavior-problems that showed Christian "solutions" to be ineffective - CHECK

Deconversion experience - CHECK

Read and loved Ken Daniels' "Why I Believed" - CHECK

Came out to spouse who was devastated - CHECK

Disconnect (major) with spouse because of totally different worldviews - CHECK

Wondering if the marriage will survive - CHECK

 

Crazy!  So, yes, I can definitely relate on so many levels.

 

I am sorry for what you are going through.

 

For me, right now, I am trying to stay in the marriage.  Ultimately for my kids.  Also for my wife.  I have compassion for the fact that her fears and indoctrination have her locked in a really difficult position - that forces her to think poorly of me.  I can see past it (often, at least) and look long term...

 

You wrote: "so we have a huge, turbulent storm underneath a placid surface."

Oh yeah, us too.  Peaceful top layer, major brokenness below...

 

Also: "Our children are young and my heart is broken at the thought of them learning the Christian doctrines of hell, inherent sin, etc. It makes my skin crawl and my heart sick to think of their precious young minds being told these terrible, barbaric ideas as fact."

 

One thing I'm enjoying about staying is that I get to, in subtle ways, help my daughters have balanced thinking.  MY oldest (9) asked me today: "Daddy - do you ever feel like, when God doesn't answer prayers, that He's not there?"   And I was honest with her: "yes, I do feel like that".  I also told her that when I look at the crazy complexity of a single cell and the order of natural laws, I find it hard to think it's all an accident...  (though I'm far from a Theist...  an agnostic at heart).  I LOVED not having to defend God - I hated doing that.  We have a dear friend -and young mother - who recently suffered a brain aneurysm and is in a coma.  Friends are comforting each other "we trust that the Lord is at work".  I LOVE not having to feel like I need to justify to others why my God allows such awefulness...

Anyway, I digress.  Point:  I love being able to say "YES that does make me doubt God's existence" - affirming her reasonable conclusion and adding sanity to her precious little mind....

 

She recently also said "Daddy, some people think we came from monkeys.  What do you think?"  I said, that is what I think too.  But don't believe it just because I'm telling you - go study biology, evolutionary theory, etc.  Decide for yourself.

 

I LOVE this so much....

 

I get, in your case, you have to fear your husband's anger.  My wife would probably be angry too - but I don't aggressively try to shape their opinions.  They come to me when they are ready with their questions...

 

As for your marriage, this is so hard.

 

Do you have any common interests?  Activities you still enjoy together?  Community service?  Common friends?

 

Do you WANT to stay married to him?

 

Do you share intimate times still?  Are they fulfilling?

 

I'm sure you read a lot of the answers people gave me in my thread... if not, give them a read... lots of helpful ideas.

 

I'm sorry I don't have much other than letting you know you are not alone!

 

Al the best.

[CircesSong]

 

 

How can I move forward in teaching them the truth of the world when I'm stuck in this situation?

 

It is very possible to teach a child to be a non believer without actually teaching them non belief. All religions are flawed in some way or another that causes them to fail bullshit detection tests.

 

What I am saying is that instead of raising little atheists, you can raise intelligent critical thinkers. Imbue values of intellectual honesty and a desire for truth seeking. Show them why a pseudoscience cannot possibly be true. Introduce them to the fine art of baloney detection ( Carl Sagan ).

 

https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/03/baloney-detection-kit-carl-sagan/

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345409469/

 

There are many other good books and other media out there that simply teach rational thinking without specifically attempting to debunk Christian dogma.

 

Just a few examples:

Pseudoscience and Extraordinary Claims of the Paranormal: A Critical Thinker's Toolkit - Jonathan C. Smith

Penn & Tellers Bullshit! series.

Critical thinking skills for Dummies

 

When they grow up, they can realize that Christianity fails the bullshit inspection test for themselves.

 

Thanks, Jedah. Very good points. I'll check out those books. 

 

Christians have circumvented the normal bullshit inspection devices by various methods, so it takes a certain breed to be willing to leap over the hurdles. Hopefully my kids will be among those. 

[CircesSong]

Hi CircesSong,

 

Thank you so much for sharing your story.  You actually posted on my thread a week or two ago, "Trying to Save My Marriage -1 Year Later".  WOW - the similarities in our stories are CRAZY:

 

Calvinism - CHECK.

Adopted a la Russel Moore / adopted for life - CHECK.

Major adoption-related-behavior-problems that showed Christian "solutions" to be ineffective - CHECK

Deconversion experience - CHECK

Read and loved Ken Daniels' "Why I Believed" - CHECK

Came out to spouse who was devastated - CHECK

Disconnect (major) with spouse because of totally different worldviews - CHECK

Wondering if the marriage will survive - CHECK

 

Crazy!  So, yes, I can definitely relate on so many levels.

 

I am sorry for what you are going through.

 

For me, right now, I am trying to stay in the marriage.  Ultimately for my kids.  Also for my wife.  I have compassion for the fact that her fears and indoctrination have her locked in a really difficult position - that forces her to think poorly of me.  I can see past it (often, at least) and look long term...

 

You wrote: "so we have a huge, turbulent storm underneath a placid surface."

Oh yeah, us too.  Peaceful top layer, major brokenness below...

 

Also: "Our children are young and my heart is broken at the thought of them learning the Christian doctrines of hell, inherent sin, etc. It makes my skin crawl and my heart sick to think of their precious young minds being told these terrible, barbaric ideas as fact."

 

One thing I'm enjoying about staying is that I get to, in subtle ways, help my daughters have balanced thinking.  MY oldest (9) asked me today: "Daddy - do you ever feel like, when God doesn't answer prayers, that He's not there?"   And I was honest with her: "yes, I do feel like that".  I also told her that when I look at the crazy complexity of a single cell and the order of natural laws, I find it hard to think it's all an accident...  (though I'm far from a Theist...  an agnostic at heart).  I LOVED not having to defend God - I hated doing that.  We have a dear friend -and young mother - who recently suffered a brain aneurysm and is in a coma.  Friends are comforting each other "we trust that the Lord is at work".  I LOVE not having to feel like I need to justify to others why my God allows such awefulness...

Anyway, I digress.  Point:  I love being able to say "YES that does make me doubt God's existence" - affirming her reasonable conclusion and adding sanity to her precious little mind....

 

She recently also said "Daddy, some people think we came from monkeys.  What do you think?"  I said, that is what I think too.  But don't believe it just because I'm telling you - go study biology, evolutionary theory, etc.  Decide for yourself.

 

I LOVE this so much....

 

I get, in your case, you have to fear your husband's anger.  My wife would probably be angry too - but I don't aggressively try to shape their opinions.  They come to me when they are ready with their questions...

 

As for your marriage, this is so hard.

 

Do you have any common interests?  Activities you still enjoy together?  Community service?  Common friends?

 

Do you WANT to stay married to him?

 

Do you share intimate times still?  Are they fulfilling?

 

I'm sure you read a lot of the answers people gave me in my thread... if not, give them a read... lots of helpful ideas.

 

I'm sorry I don't have much other than letting you know you are not alone!

 

Al the best.

Insightful, 

Thank you for your reply. I cannot tell you how helpful it was to read your story. I saw in it I saw my own struggle. Thank you. 

 

Your replies to your kids when asking questions is so similar to mine. I find myself often saying, "Well, sweetie, don't believe everything you are told or even what you think. Search out the answers. You don't need to decide now. You have a lifetime of learning from the best and brightest minds on any topic before you make up your mind." I wish someone had given me this gift, this pursuit of intelligent inquiry. It is hard-won in my life, and I cringe when adult loved ones brush that 'right to critical thinking' away for my kids in favor of embedding Christianity in their minds at every turn. It feels like a robbery, each time it happens, and so I try in the quiet moments to plant the seed and wait for it to take root. 

 

The marriage. Ah, the marriage. I love my husband. I do. But I'm not sure I'm "in love" with him. We are very, very different (Christianity aside). Yin and yang and whatnot. We have almost no common interests, and the only common friends we have are church-related or church-school-related. My loneliness is palpable, due to this.

 

Fulfilling intimacy? Eh. It has greatly suffered since my deconversion, but not solely related to the deconversion. Just the simple fact of one person (me) growing up in a lot of ways, and the 'growing apart' began. When our dating relationship began, I depended on him to be my guide and intellectual rock. But I've matured, and come into my own, and, as it happens, we are the opposite of each other in almost every thing I can imagine. We don't see eye-to-eye on…almost anything. I am 100% financially dependent on him, however, because of course as a good little Christian wife I set aside my career pursuits for baby-making and such, so all of my 20's were spent doing that. 

 

He, like it seems like a lot of men are (not to generalize), is good at compartmentalizing, and so is able to exist with this duality in his wife, and his family. One part upstanding Christian family, the other part knowing this terrible secret: his wife is now non-Christian and ultimately his greatest enemy in his life pursuit, which is seeing his children saved and on the way to eternity in heaven. I can't imagine the betrayal he feels, like there's a snake in the baby's bed, so to speak. 

 

Divorce seems worse, though, all told, due to the havoc it would bring upon the kids and the financial nightmare that would ensue. And so, I suffer silently and find solace in quiet pursuits such as meditation and yoga, and knowing that there are millions of people the world over who have greater struggles than I. 

 

Thank you again for your thoughts. I wish you and your children the best. 

[GuyGone]

CircesSong: I don't know if this helps, but as a pastor, I counseled a couple in almost the exact same marital situation.  The wife had not become a non-Christian, but she had focused on kids instead of a career, put her husband on a pedestal, and then realized that something was missing.  Because of their decisions in the past, she was financially dependent on him.

 

I won't say that this is a one-size-fits-all solution, but is it possible that, just as your husband's fears are causing him to assume the worst, that you are doing the same?  What would happen if you said you'd like to go to school to get a degree in computer science so you can get a job writing software (or whatever)?  If you think about doing that, are there any fears that come to mind?  And are those fears based on your husband's behavior or on your assumptions about what that behavior would be?

 

Granted, there are men whose responses would range from abusive to just firmly saying "no" (wives should be barefoot and pregnant, as the old saying goes).  But a lot of men would be OK with it, or would express concern about the cost or about the needs of the kids.  In other words, the response might not be negative, it might be positive, or it might be reasonable concerns that you can work through.  The point is to make sure that your cage isn't one of your own making.  The point is not to let your newly different world view project assumptions on your husband that aren't true.

 

I won't go into all the nuances of what that conversation might look like, I picked just one possible example.  Maybe for you it's a 2-year degree from a community college in computer science or business, or working for a nonprofit.  Or maybe it isn't career-oriented at all.  But unless your relationship is abusive (and your previous posts indicate that it is not), don't write your husband off because you believe you made bad choices in the past.

 

I have told people in the past that decisions they've already made are done.  But they can make new decisions starting today.  If someone's past decisions have cost them their marriage or put them in jail, those consequences don't go away.  Your starting point for tomorrow isn't where you could have been if you had made different decisions ten years ago; your starting point is where you are right now.  That's reality.  But where you go tomorrow is based on new decisions that you make.  In other words, where you are now is a starting point, not an ending. 

 

Maybe you want to wait until your kids are in college or something before you change directions.  Or maybe you want to start tomorrow.  Either way, don't assume the worst unless you have actual evidence that the worst is the likely outcome of that conversation with your husband.

[Insightful]

Hey CircesSong -

 

How are you?  Any updates?? 

 

For me, things have gotten a bit harder.  My 9 year old daughter, who attends Christian school, told me on the way home from school Monday, "my friend says that Hillary Clinton is a baby killer!" 

 

We had never talked about abortion before...  so I felt like I needed to help her have a clear picture of what was going on.  I explained to her that many women - for centuries - have made the decision to end unintended pregnancies.  I wanted to give her an understanding of the issue without being extreme in labelling people.

 

I explained that it is a difficult issue over which many wonderful people disagree. 

 

[for the record, I lean pro-life, but with respect and understanding for the complexities of the issue and without judgement on those who believe and act differently than me].

 

I also explained that ending a pregnancy is different than murdering a live baby.  Im not commenting on the rightness or wrongness, just that whatever it is, it's different.  It's also different to end a pregnancy immediately upon conception (a day after pill for example) vs 1 day before delivery...

 

I just wanted her to have the tools to understand.  I hate the self-righteousness of most pro-lifers.

 

My daughter's initial feeling was that it is wrong, especially late in pregnancy.   I told her that it is important that if she is "pro-life" that she also work hard to support women who find themselves in difficult situations. etc.  "pro-life" means being willing to adopt unwanted babies...  We just don't need more people sitting on the sidelines judging women and condemning them.  We need people who will get off their butts and make the world a better place...

 

Anyway, later that night, I explained the conversation I'd had with my daughter to my wife.  She was NOT happy.  I guess I came down too soft - not principled enough for her...  It irked her that my morality seems to be continually shifting since leaving the faith.  It upsets her that she has no idea what I will say to our kids.  She called me a loose cannon.  She labeled me a moral relativist... maybe that's true...

 

She said a lot of hurtful things monday night:

 

"Maybe I was wrong to have chosen to stay married to you" and "maybe I will look back later and realize I was a fool for staying with you" and "It's so sad being married to you"

 

She thinks one day I will come to my senses, realize I was wrong for my unbelief, and regret all the harm I've done to her and to our kids by my non-belief.

 

She says my unbelief is "destroying our marriage and destroying [her]".

 

What do I do with this???!!! 

 

She said that to her, fighting for our family and fighting for our marriage means fighting to regain my faith.  Without my faith, she will only and always be miserable.

 

I asked her to try to understand how hard it would be if someone she loved told her they would only and always be miserable unless she believed in mormonism.  What would she do??  It's obviously BS to her.  so now what?

 

So, we've begun nightly discussions about our faith issues.  We're trying one last time to talk through it all.  For her, it's her last chance to help me see where I've lost the path - where my thinking is flawed.  For me, it's one last chance to try to help her understand that there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence against the biblical worldview....

 

I wish prayer did something-  'cause I need it badly now...  

[sdelsolray]

What you should tell her is that the SCOTUS decided this issue over 50 years ago and decided, in part:

 

1)  A woman's choice is a private decision (i.e., what  she chooses is not the business of anyone else, including the government).

 

2)  However, that choice becomes limited once the fetus is close to being born.

[♦ ficino ♦]

Does it help if you don't talk about an early stage fetus as a "baby"? Because it is not a baby. At that stage it is highly developed tissue but no human being.

 

Even St. Thomas Aquinas (whose view is not that of the modern RCs) held that the fetus does not become human until it acquires rational soul. As I remember, he followed Aristotle in holding that it attains to rational soul at the 40th day in males and the 80th in females. Before that, it has first the level of soul common with plants, and then the level of soul common with animals.

 

It is absurd to say that abortion of an early stage fetus = killing a baby. A large percentage of fertilized ova never become babies. Are the many miscarriages, etc. that occur an instance of God's aborting babies?

[GuyGone]

Insightful: When you say that being pro-life implies an obligation to adopt babies, you are essentially shutting down discussion.  Nobody ever says that you can't really be opposed to spousal abuse unless you are willing to turn your home into a shelter for abused women.  Nobody says that it is immoral to oppose child abuse unless you are willing to make your house a sanctuary for abused children.  The only topic where anybody ever uses that argument is abortion.  It's like the people who said that the only reason to not vote for Obama is racism.  Couldn't possibly be because you opposed his policies or his plans.  Nope, only one reason is possible.  Saying that you can't morally oppose abortion without being willing to adopt babies is a false dilemma argument.  And it is, in itself, a form of self-righteousness.

 

I say that not to turn this into a political discussion, but to make another point.  I may be wrong about this because I'm reading a lot into that one statement, but is it possible that you are little bit given to all-or-nothing thinking and statements in discussions with your wife?  In my experience with pastoral counseling, when one or both spouses do that, it's very hard to work out the issues because every discussion becomes a straw man argument. When one or both spouses use false choice arguments, it is difficult to make any progress because they are always claiming the moral high ground.  When we pretend there are only two choices, one being unreasonable and the other being the one we want, we kill any chance of rational discussion.  Politicians do that, rational people shouldn't.  There are times when it may be legitimate to simplify the issues down to two, but that is very rare in a marital discussion of this type.  It's almost always an attempt to manipulate the other person or control the terms of the discussion.

 

To be fair, if you report correctly what your wife said, her position that you have to be a Christian to keep her from being miserable is also a false dilemma argument, although of a slightly different kind.  You can make her miserable if you are abusing her or gambling away all your income, but if your beliefs about God make her miserable, that's really her choice.  But please don't tell her that unless you are also willing to give up the use of false dilemma arguments.

 

I'm guessing that you are both going to find it difficult to move past this without a third party involved, someone who can point out when either of you make false dilemma claims and "you made me do this" claims.  And both of you have to decide whether you want to be right or want to work out the issues.  Resolving that question might be the place to start.

 

sdelsolray: I don't think that a SCOTUS decision defines morality.  Remember that SCOTUS gave us the Dred Scott decision, declaring that slavery was legal and that blacks could not legitimately be U.S. citizens.  It took the civil war to settle that.  One of the arguments of Christians is that if you don't believe in God, you'll believe in anything.  When we take the position that authority equals morality, we affirm that belief.  If everyone had believed that after Dred Scott, we'd still have slavery and anyone of African descent would be unable to vote.  Becoming a non-Christian doesn't mean handing your conscience to the government.

[sdelsolray]

...

sdelsolray: I don't think that a SCOTUS decision defines morality. 

...

 

Agreed.  Morality is consensus driven by the people within the particular society.  That being said, individuals often develop their own morality which can differ from the majority.  As long as behavior associated with that individual morality does not violate the laws of the society, it is allowed.  For example, many believe it is moral to cohabitate, have sex and share resources without being married.  Others think such behavior is immoral.  There are no laws against such behavior, so it is allowed despite the lack of total consensus on whether the behavior is moral.  As an opposite example, a few individuals believe they need to murder another human or group of humans and actually do so.  Those that do are punished because there are laws which prohibit that behavior.

 

...

Remember that SCOTUS gave us the Dred Scott decision, declaring that slavery was legal and that blacks could not legitimately be U.S. citizens.  It took the civil war to settle that. 

...

The SCOTUS has made many bad/incorrect decisions in the past and the Dred Scott decision is one of those.  That fact does not determine whether Roe v. Wade was a good or bad decision.

 

...

One of the arguments of Christians is that if you don't believe in God, you'll believe in anything. 

...

 

It's not an argument at all, but merely a bald assertion, and as such it is fallacious.  Moreover, the evidence demonstrates otherwise.  This is one of many Christian apologetic lies.  

 

...

When we take the position that authority equals morality, we affirm that belief. 

...

 

Yes, that is exactly what many theists do, e.g., "Morality comes from God, the ulimate authority".  Still, many secular laws contain morality.  For example, the criminal statutes forbid certain conduct that socieity deems immoral, such as assault, theft, etc.  I believe that societies' laws often codify some aspects of morality.  And so do you.

 

...

If everyone had believed that after Dred Scott, we'd still have slavery and anyone of African descent would be unable to vote. 

...

 

Just not in any way you can demonstrate.

 

...

Becoming a non-Christian doesn't mean handing your conscience to the government.

...

Agreed.

 

[hockeyfan70]

I have done some really shitty things in my relationship with my wife, so I figure if she can forgive me of what I have done, I can put up with her continued belief in God. We go to a Christian counselor, who I started seeing after the death of my brother (she is great by the way, she understands the difference between bullshit Christianity and "good" Christianity i.e. Matthew 25), which has been helpful in me not being selfish and realize that it's not my job to convert my wife to non-Christianity. As long as she understands that I won't really participate in church activities and I will be neutral with my daughter when it comes to questions about God and faith, she can believe whatever she wants to believe.

[CircesSong]

Hey CircesSong -

 

How are you?  Any updates?? 

 

For me, things have gotten a bit harder.  My 9 year old daughter, who attends Christian school, told me on the way home from school Monday, "my friend says that Hillary Clinton is a baby killer!" 

 

We had never talked about abortion before...  so I felt like I needed to help her have a clear picture of what was going on.  I explained to her that many women - for centuries - have made the decision to end unintended pregnancies.  I wanted to give her an understanding of the issue without being extreme in labelling people.

 

I explained that it is a difficult issue over which many wonderful people disagree. 

 

[for the record, I lean pro-life, but with respect and understanding for the complexities of the issue and without judgement on those who believe and act differently than me].

 

I also explained that ending a pregnancy is different than murdering a live baby.  Im not commenting on the rightness or wrongness, just that whatever it is, it's different.  It's also different to end a pregnancy immediately upon conception (a day after pill for example) vs 1 day before delivery...

 

I just wanted her to have the tools to understand.  I hate the self-righteousness of most pro-lifers.

 

My daughter's initial feeling was that it is wrong, especially late in pregnancy.   I told her that it is important that if she is "pro-life" that she also work hard to support women who find themselves in difficult situations. etc.  "pro-life" means being willing to adopt unwanted babies...  We just don't need more people sitting on the sidelines judging women and condemning them.  We need people who will get off their butts and make the world a better place...

 

Anyway, later that night, I explained the conversation I'd had with my daughter to my wife.  She was NOT happy.  I guess I came down too soft - not principled enough for her...  It irked her that my morality seems to be continually shifting since leaving the faith.  It upsets her that she has no idea what I will say to our kids.  She called me a loose cannon.  She labeled me a moral relativist... maybe that's true...

 

She said a lot of hurtful things monday night:

 

"Maybe I was wrong to have chosen to stay married to you" and "maybe I will look back later and realize I was a fool for staying with you" and "It's so sad being married to you"

 

She thinks one day I will come to my senses, realize I was wrong for my unbelief, and regret all the harm I've done to her and to our kids by my non-belief.

 

She says my unbelief is "destroying our marriage and destroying [her]".

 

What do I do with this???!!! 

 

She said that to her, fighting for our family and fighting for our marriage means fighting to regain my faith.  Without my faith, she will only and always be miserable.

 

I asked her to try to understand how hard it would be if someone she loved told her they would only and always be miserable unless she believed in mormonism.  What would she do??  It's obviously BS to her.  so now what?

 

So, we've begun nightly discussions about our faith issues.  We're trying one last time to talk through it all.  For her, it's her last chance to help me see where I've lost the path - where my thinking is flawed.  For me, it's one last chance to try to help her understand that there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence against the biblical worldview....

 

I wish prayer did something-  'cause I need it badly now...  

Thank you for checking in. Things are frustratingly the same on the surface, but underneath, more maddening to me. I tend to be the one to "suck it up" in my relationship with my husband, so in this, it feels like my whole life is just a big "hold my breath and try to make it back to the surface before I disappear". 

 

As you said, I can very much relate with you as you navigate this strange duality. There are so many instances--such as your Hillary Clinton example--in which Christians have the stock-answer to complex questions, and my children (although very young still) parrot them after hearing them at church and other functions. My breath is caught in my throat in irritation when I hear it, every time. 

 

The difference between your approach with your wife and mine with my husband is that you continue to engage in faith-conversations, whereas for me and the dynamic in place with me and my husband, I know it is simply not worth it.  Your heated conversations with your wife are probably more satisfying than my...nothing. Maybe being financially independent for you gives you greater leeway to have these discussions. For me, it feels like, since I couldn't facilitate a deconversion process in him, what am I trying to achieve? It's not like I can take my kids with me and leave. "He who holds the pursestrings. rules the house", etc etc. ; /

 

Keep me posted. My husband is 100% exactly like your wife in his take on this. He also has said that because I no longer am a believer that my moral compass is gone (even though I've made exactly zero changes in my personality, life choices, etc). You are not alone. You don't need to pray. You just need to be strong and remember that your wise intuition will get you through.  

 

Also, you've done nothing wrong. Don't feel guilty. (I feel guilty all the time, like I should don the big scarlet A. So I know how it feels.)