My Marriage Is Dying A Slow Death

[★ Citsonga ★]

He also said that because I no longer am a believer that my moral compass is gone

 

That's a common argument, but it's rather ironic when the Bible itself says that God created Adam & Eve without a moral compass (no "knowledge of good and evil") and then declared it "good."

 

It's also rather condescending to pretend that we just up and forget how to be a good person just because our view of religion changes. Complete and utter nonsense.

[CircesSong]

Hey CircesSong -

 

How are you?  Any updates?? 

 

For me, things have gotten a bit harder.  My 9 year old daughter, who attends Christian school, told me on the way home from school Monday, "my friend says that Hillary Clinton is a baby killer!" 

 

We had never talked about abortion before...  so I felt like I needed to help her have a clear picture of what was going on.  I explained to her that many women - for centuries - have made the decision to end unintended pregnancies.  I wanted to give her an understanding of the issue without being extreme in labelling people.

 

I explained that it is a difficult issue over which many wonderful people disagree. 

 

[for the record, I lean pro-life, but with respect and understanding for the complexities of the issue and without judgement on those who believe and act differently than me].

 

I also explained that ending a pregnancy is different than murdering a live baby.  Im not commenting on the rightness or wrongness, just that whatever it is, it's different.  It's also different to end a pregnancy immediately upon conception (a day after pill for example) vs 1 day before delivery...

 

I just wanted her to have the tools to understand.  I hate the self-righteousness of most pro-lifers.

 

My daughter's initial feeling was that it is wrong, especially late in pregnancy.   I told her that it is important that if she is "pro-life" that she also work hard to support women who find themselves in difficult situations. etc.  "pro-life" means being willing to adopt unwanted babies...  We just don't need more people sitting on the sidelines judging women and condemning them.  We need people who will get off their butts and make the world a better place...

 

Anyway, later that night, I explained the conversation I'd had with my daughter to my wife.  She was NOT happy.  I guess I came down too soft - not principled enough for her...  It irked her that my morality seems to be continually shifting since leaving the faith.  It upsets her that she has no idea what I will say to our kids.  She called me a loose cannon.  She labeled me a moral relativist... maybe that's true...

 

She said a lot of hurtful things monday night:

 

"Maybe I was wrong to have chosen to stay married to you" and "maybe I will look back later and realize I was a fool for staying with you" and "It's so sad being married to you"

 

She thinks one day I will come to my senses, realize I was wrong for my unbelief, and regret all the harm I've done to her and to our kids by my non-belief.

 

She says my unbelief is "destroying our marriage and destroying [her]".

 

What do I do with this???!!! 

 

She said that to her, fighting for our family and fighting for our marriage means fighting to regain my faith.  Without my faith, she will only and always be miserable.

 

I asked her to try to understand how hard it would be if someone she loved told her they would only and always be miserable unless she believed in mormonism.  What would she do??  It's obviously BS to her.  so now what?

 

So, we've begun nightly discussions about our faith issues.  We're trying one last time to talk through it all.  For her, it's her last chance to help me see where I've lost the path - where my thinking is flawed.  For me, it's one last chance to try to help her understand that there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence against the biblical worldview....

 

I wish prayer did something-  'cause I need it badly now...  

I was thinking more about what both you and I are facing w/in our marriages. 

 

I don't believe it is fruitful to spend time arguing or trying to convince each other of the rightness or wrongness of each position. The root of the issue is: can we stay together in love and respect while in these diametrically opposed worldviews? Can we find common ground? Will one of us always feel swept under the rug while one enjoys the moral high ground? Can we come to an agreement as to how to teach the children? Will both of us feel open and free to express our views without feeling shunned or shamed? 

 

These are weighty, serious matters that in my opinion need a 3rd party mediator so both entities feel fully heard. In my case, and I believe yours, as the one who 'jumped ship' on Christianity, it is too easy to become the one who is made to feel as though you are wrong, bad, a disappointment, immoral. These are terrible things for a decent, loving human being/parent/spouse to hear and be made to feel. It just simply cannot be. 

 

I am going to search out a counselor in my area who may be of some help. I'm planning on reaching out to Marlene Winell who authored Leaving the Fold to see if she has any contacts in my area. She is based in the Berkeley area, I believe. 

[trek4fr]

CircesSong, I'm in a somewhat similar situation. My wife and I celebrated our 25th anniversary last year, and when we were married, we were both committed Baptists. I started moving more liberal about 10 years ago, and for the last 3 years or so I've identified myself as a humanist. She is still a very committed Christian. I'm not qualified to tell you what to do, I can only share with you how my wife and I currently handle being "unequally yoked". First, as you know, relationships are very complicated. No two people are exactly alike and no two marriages are exactly alike. But they ALWAYS take work. And they always take RESPECT and UNDERSTANDING. If a couple doesn't have that, they don't have a marriage, all they have is a living arrangement. And leaving religion, as you know, makes you keenly aware of how precious life is and how short it is. When my wife and I married, we promised each other to have a "household of faith" and that we would do our best to raise Christian children. But she and I are different people now, 25 years later. That is what life does to us. Life changes you, like it or not. We weathered two miscarriages, financial hardships, children and step-children, and the loss of a grandchild in a car accident. Now she is looking at congestive heart failure. I love her more now than the day I married her and don't know what I will do if I lose her. It is her character that I admire, especially her patience as I've changed my beliefs and put her through some of the fall-out. But our marriage still takes work. Everyday. Her beliefs are now quite different from mine, but her VALUES are much the same. I still think that 1 Corinthians 13 gives us a pretty good list of the values that form good relationships, and I don't have to believe all the other stuff goes with it.

But my wife said something to me which I still try to follow. She said, "I love you no matter what you believe. But we are not going to make it if you ridicule me." Again, respect. We mainly concentrate on our shared values now. But if we do talk about religious issues, I try to understand, I try to really listen to what she is saying, and I try to explain how and why I see things differently without attacking her as a person. If your husband doesn't or will not learn to respect you, then you have some difficult choices ahead. But you have to BOTH be committed, not to a piece of paper or to vows that you made years ago, but to the person standing in front of you. If you can't both do that, it is rather hopeless. Being Christian does not guarantee a good marriage. Fifty percentage of Christian marriages end in divorce. Shared beliefs are not the answer to a good marriage. Respect, understanding, and hard work are. But, IMO, the point is not to never get divorced or to have a long marriage. The point is to create and nurture another human being that brings out the best in both of you and that intertwines your lives so close together that every day, despite the hard times, is worth it.

 

Lastly, I'd recommend a book to you called "In Faith and In Doubt". You can find it on Amazon or at any bookstore. The author focuses on how believers and non-believers can actually have strong marriages by having shared values. It has some good advice. I wouldn't recommend it over professional, secular counseling, but it may help you to build or retain some bridges with your husband until you can both decide what is going to happen.

 

I wish you the best.

[GuyGone]

I agree.  Ridicule and contempt, whether spoken or exhibited in other ways, is fatal to a marriage if not corrected.  I saw it in pastoral counseling.  You both have responsibility to make it work.  If we can't treat our spouses with different beliefs at least as decently as we treat coworkers with different religions, then something is wrong.

[CircesSong]

CircesSong, I'm in a somewhat similar situation. My wife and I celebrated our 25th anniversary last year, and when we were married, we were both committed Baptists. I started moving more liberal about 10 years ago, and for the last 3 years or so I've identified myself as a humanist. She is still a very committed Christian. I'm not qualified to tell you what to do, I can only share with you how my wife and I currently handle being "unequally yoked". First, as you know, relationships are very complicated. No two people are exactly alike and no two marriages are exactly alike. But they ALWAYS take work. And they always take RESPECT and UNDERSTANDING. If a couple doesn't have that, they don't have a marriage, all they have is a living arrangement. And leaving religion, as you know, makes you keenly aware of how precious life is and how short it is. When my wife and I married, we promised each other to have a "household of faith" and that we would do our best to raise Christian children. But she and I are different people now, 25 years later. That is what life does to us. Life changes you, like it or not. We weathered two miscarriages, financial hardships, children and step-children, and the loss of a grandchild in a car accident. Now she is looking at congestive heart failure. I love her more now than the day I married her and don't know what I will do if I lose her. It is her character that I admire, especially her patience as I've changed my beliefs and put her through some of the fall-out. But our marriage still takes work. Everyday. Her beliefs are now quite different from mine, but her VALUES are much the same. I still think that 1 Corinthians 13 gives us a pretty good list of the values that form good relationships, and I don't have to believe all the other stuff goes with it.

 

But my wife said something to me which I still try to follow. She said, "I love you no matter what you believe. But we are not going to make it if you ridicule me." Again, respect. We mainly concentrate on our shared values now. But if we do talk about religious issues, I try to understand, I try to really listen to what she is saying, and I try to explain how and why I see things differently without attacking her as a person. If your husband doesn't or will not learn to respect you, then you have some difficult choices ahead. But you have to BOTH be committed, not to a piece of paper or to vows that you made years ago, but to the person standing in front of you. If you can't both do that, it is rather hopeless. Being Christian does not guarantee a good marriage. Fifty percentage of Christian marriages end in divorce. Shared beliefs are not the answer to a good marriage. Respect, understanding, and hard work are. But, IMO, the point is not to never get divorced or to have a long marriage. The point is to create and nurture another human being that brings out the best in both of you and that intertwines your lives so close together that every day, despite the hard times, is worth it.

 

Lastly, I'd recommend a book to you called "In Faith and In Doubt". You can find it on Amazon or at any bookstore. The author focuses on how believers and non-believers can actually have strong marriages by having shared values. It has some good advice. I wouldn't recommend it over professional, secular counseling, but it may help you to build or retain some bridges with your husband until you can both decide what is going to happen.

 

I wish you the best.

Thank you. I got the book "In Fatih and In Doubt" and am enjoying it. It appears that we fall on the spectrum of "most doomed" as we are a part of an almost hyper-religious sect of protestantism. After reading it, I am more resolved than ever to begin secular marital counseling and perhaps share with my close extended family the news of my deconversion. Avoiding the issue is becoming increasingly painful for me. 

[BendyLine]

Circes, I don't have much productive to add, but I just wanted to say that I've been following this topic and I'm rooting for you. Please don't be afraid to advocate for your happiness, whatever that looks like.

[Mindmaster]

I find myself drawn to secular Buddhism and mediation, as the thoughtful processes of evaluating humanity and daily decisions is in keeping with what seems to be a kind, peaceful way to move in relationship with others and the earth. The more I read nonreligious Buddhist books, the more ridiculous and sad Christianity seems. 

 

I feel like my marriage is doomed. Perhaps worse than divorce is the promise of living out my life in emotional and intellectual loneliness. His general thought process is that I went into the marriage and made my vows to him as a Christian, and it is my obligation to continue to be a Christian because otherwise he would've never married me. 

 

Thank for your reading, and for your kind replies. I'm looking for any advice anyone has in navigating these waters. 

 

 

Hi CircesSong,

 

I, too, have decided to pick a peaceful spiritual path so I chose to be involved with Druidry. It also has the lack of dogma you describe, and more it is about promoting new experiences, accepting people, and promoting balance in every facet of your life. Much of what I read about Buddhism seems to echo the same ideas, and I think it's great that you have chose a path that is non-violent and still provides inspiration and enlightenment, these are the most important things after all.

 

As far as the social aspect, I think it is important to find like-minded folks to interact with as many of them are coming from exactly the same place you are. Try to meet up with other Buddhists in your area, for example... They will help you through the problems unique to your situation and you don't have to feel alone. Don't be afraid to ask others here too for the same, you really shouldn't go alone, ever! There are plenty of non-Abrahamic spiritual people and pagans around and they've been through your situation.

 

In regard to the marriage, this is the argument that you cannot be married to me if you do not believe Santa Claus is a real guy living at the north pole. This is a non-argument, and if you do not feel the pull of the holy spirit it isn't fair to be persecuted with it. If Christianity is the requirement to be married and have friends, then the requirement to have these friends is to be mentally or morally deficient and maybe you can consider moving on. I would recommend that at least you educate the people around you first about the path you chosen, however as despite the rhetoric cooler heads often prevail. You may get to keep most of them as associations anyway, and I'm not aware of any churches that bar people based on their religious leaning. You can probably still attend events even if you tell them you worship the devil, so I wouldn't worry about what is not a problem yet.

 

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck. I've been living as a non-Christian pagan of some sort or another for the last 25 years of my life and if there is anything I can do to help I'd be happy to assist.

[CircesSong]

Circes, I don't have much productive to add, but I just wanted to say that I've been following this topic and I'm rooting for you. Please don't be afraid to advocate for your happiness, whatever that looks like.

Thank you! You are too kind. 

[CircesSong]

 

I find myself drawn to secular Buddhism and mediation, as the thoughtful processes of evaluating humanity and daily decisions is in keeping with what seems to be a kind, peaceful way to move in relationship with others and the earth. The more I read nonreligious Buddhist books, the more ridiculous and sad Christianity seems. 

 

I feel like my marriage is doomed. Perhaps worse than divorce is the promise of living out my life in emotional and intellectual loneliness. His general thought process is that I went into the marriage and made my vows to him as a Christian, and it is my obligation to continue to be a Christian because otherwise he would've never married me. 

 

Thank for your reading, and for your kind replies. I'm looking for any advice anyone has in navigating these waters. 

 

 

Hi CircesSong,

 

I, too, have decided to pick a peaceful spiritual path so I chose to be involved with Druidry. It also has the lack of dogma you describe, and more it is about promoting new experiences, accepting people, and promoting balance in every facet of your life. Much of what I read about Buddhism seems to echo the same ideas, and I think it's great that you have chose a path that is non-violent and still provides inspiration and enlightenment, these are the most important things after all.

 

As far as the social aspect, I think it is important to find like-minded folks to interact with as many of them are coming from exactly the same place you are. Try to meet up with other Buddhists in your area, for example... They will help you through the problems unique to your situation and you don't have to feel alone. Don't be afraid to ask others here too for the same, you really shouldn't go alone, ever! There are plenty of non-Abrahamic spiritual people and pagans around and they've been through your situation.

 

In regard to the marriage, this is the argument that you cannot be married to me if you do not believe Santa Claus is a real guy living at the north pole. This is a non-argument, and if you do not feel the pull of the holy spirit it isn't fair to be persecuted with it. If Christianity is the requirement to be married and have friends, then the requirement to have these friends is to be mentally or morally deficient and maybe you can consider moving on. I would recommend that at least you educate the people around you first about the path you chosen, however as despite the rhetoric cooler heads often prevail. You may get to keep most of them as associations anyway, and I'm not aware of any churches that bar people based on their religious leaning. You can probably still attend events even if you tell them you worship the devil, so I wouldn't worry about what is not a problem yet.

 

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck. I've been living as a non-Christian pagan of some sort or another for the last 25 years of my life and if there is anything I can do to help I'd be happy to assist.

 

Thanks! 

[CircesSong]

I had my first session with a secular therapist last week. It was disappointing. The therapist was kind and listened, but there was a mildly-strong undercurrent of "your life is generally happy, your kids are happy, just suck it up and pretend". She recommended coming to therapy to be able to express myself so Im not hiding, but then just staying in the faith community for the sake of the kids and trying to find the good in it. (based on the fact that I told her leaving/divorcing my husband isn't an option at this point)

 

It was clear she didn't understand the insidious nature of the pressure to believe/conform at all costs within the faith community. To be fair, it's quite a catch-22, toeing both worlds for the sake of family unity. 

[BendyLine]

I had my first session with a secular therapist last week. It was disappointing. The therapist was kind and listened, but there was a mildly-strong undercurrent of "your life is generally happy, your kids are happy, just suck it up and pretend". She recommended coming to therapy to be able to express myself so Im not hiding, but then just staying in the faith community for the sake of the kids and trying to find the good in it. (based on the fact that I told her leaving/divorcing my husband isn't an option at this point)

 

It was clear she didn't understand the insidious nature of the pressure to believe/conform at all costs within the faith community. To be fair, it's quite a catch-22, toeing both worlds for the sake of family unity. 

 

Good therapists are hard to come by. I was very lucky to find one about three years ago that had worked with former cult members, and was very sympathetic towards my feelings about religion. She really helped me process a lot of my feelings, but unfortunately, she died in a car accident a few months ago. (Because of that I am reluctant to seek another one, but that's a different story.)

 

Sometimes it takes a few sessions to "click" with a therapist. But if you feel like your therapist isn't the right fit for you, please don't be afraid to look for another one. 

[★ Citsonga ★]

I had my first session with a secular therapist last week. It was disappointing. The therapist was kind and listened, but there was a mildly-strong undercurrent of "your life is generally happy, your kids are happy, just suck it up and pretend". She recommended coming to therapy to be able to express myself so Im not hiding, but then just staying in the faith community for the sake of the kids and trying to find the good in it. (based on the fact that I told her leaving/divorcing my husband isn't an option at this point)

 

It was clear she didn't understand the insidious nature of the pressure to believe/conform at all costs within the faith community. To be fair, it's quite a catch-22, toeing both worlds for the sake of family unity. 

 

It is likely very difficult for those who haven't gone through deconversion to even remotely understand where we're coming from. Those who still believe and those who never believed most often just don't get it. A trained therapist *should* still be able to connect the dots, but it wouldn't surprise me if many can't (especially those who are believers themselves).

 

Perhaps things will click after a couple more sessions, or maybe you'll have better luck with another therapist. Good luck as you wade through it all.

[JadedAtheist]

I'm sorry to read about your situation. It's always so hard to have only one person in the relationship change their beliefs because of all the pressure to conform and pretend and the constant battle to balance everything while standing on egg shells. I was in a similar sort of situation to yourself, I attended a super-hyper-fundamentalist church before moving to a hyper-fundamentalist church It was more of an intellectual church as well of the Calvinist variety and it appealed to me greatly. I started going to Bible College and was *this* close to being in a relationship with a girl there. I was incredibly lucky that I dodged that bullet because it would have made my deconversion so much harder. It was hard enough to accept the fact I wasted a bunch of time on studying something that would in no way be useful outside of Christendom. I can't imagine how much harder it was for you to leave, and then still be stuck in that sphere.

 

To be honest, I've never really personally understood how people find psychologists/therapists useful because of the fact that since they aren't privy to one's personal experiences and the baggage they carry, they can't then possibly really give any meaningful insight (let me stress this is just my personal opinion, I know that a lot of people find them beneficial including my partner but I am just not one of them). I do think your therapist was somewhat onto something with having outlets for you. Maybe there are some meet up groups you could attend? Starting a blog and attending websites like this could be beneficial too. 

 

Hope things improve for you.

[GuyGone]

Unless you go to a very small, everybody-knows-everybody's-business church, it may be that you are reading pressure that isn't there.  I suspect there are any number of churchgoers in your church that are nominal Christians at best.  They go to church, they might (or might not) sing the songs, but it doesn't affect their life in any significant way. 

 

We are all prone to confirmation bias.  There are people who believe they are mistreated by the boss, their spouse, or whoever, and they will see that mistreatment everywhere - including where it is not.  Is it possible that you are seeing pressure to conform when it's really just people making assumptions that everyone in the church has their worldview?  In other words, some of them may not care whether you conform, they may just assume you do.  That isn't to say that they think you are right if you disagree - most of the people who go to a church are there because they agree with part or all of what the church believes.  But that doesn't necessarily mean they would insist that you be like them.

 

When we left our last church (and I was a pastor, remember), a number of people talked about how when God calls you on, you have to follow.  I didn't argue.  I had never said that God told us to leave, I just said it was time to go.  They read God into that.  But I didn't feel any pressure to make something up or tell then that God had nothing to do with it, I just moved on.  I'm sure that some people were curious as to the real reason we were leaving (there were some unhealthy things happening in leadership and it was starting to show) but I didn't feel a need to blab anything.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that you should ask yourself if the pressure you feel is possibly magnified in your mind.  As long as you don't swear like a sailor in church and as long as you don't try to deconvert anyone, I suspect most churchgoers won't pressure you too much.  They don't care that much.  Is it possible that you are a bit of a people-pleaser?  That's a question, not an accusation.  But if it's true, you might feel a pressure to meet the imagined expectations of others - expectations they may not actually have.  As someone once said, don't borrow trouble.

 

If a staunch liberal attends a Tea Party meeting with their neighbor, they might come away with the impression that they were being pressured to conform, when it's really that the people there just assume that everyone else there agrees with most of what they believe.  Because most of the people who are there, are there because they agree.  If everyone there had the opposite views, it would be a Greenpeace meeting or something.

 

I suppose a question to ask yourself is whether you've already made up your mind to end the marriage and you're just looking for the exit.  Because if you are, then your confirmation bias will be looking for justifications for it.  I've mentioned elsewhere that I did most of the pastoral counseling at our last church.  I met with one couple for financial counseling, and early in the process, it was obvious that they had already decided on bankruptcy.  Anything I did to try to help them was a formality because they had already chosen a path (it was obvious to me, not to them).  So their thinking was aligned with that outcome, and they wouldn't do anything to avoid that outcome.  They wouldn't do the work to avoid that outcome.

 

I don't know if any of this applies to you - those are questions you have to answer.  I'm just responding to red flags that I see.  Smoke doesn't always mean a fire, but it's the first place to look for one.

[GuyGone]

Schnoogle: Sorry, was responding to CirceSong.  I read that post but didn't move on to the next page before answering.  I'm out of sync, apparently.  Which I guess is the story of my life.

[TardisThinker]

I don’t know if you’re experiencing this too or not, but one of the scarier aspects of deconverting has been looking back at my major life choices and wondering if I would have made the same choices if I’d been an atheist the whole time. There are a lot of things that I would do differently if I could go back in time. And part of me (not all of me, just a little part) has a deep down fear, a fear that’s difficult to for me to acknowledge, that maybe my marriage is one of those choices that would have been different.

 

But then I remember that while Christianity was a factor in us choosing each other, there were tons of other factors too. There were hundreds of other available Christian people in my vicinity that I could have chosen; he was special to me for a multitude of reasons that had nothing to do with Christianity. And I was special to him for a multitude of reasons that had nothing to do with Christianity. And all of those other reasons are still true.

[hockeyfan70]

Hello, I haven't been on ex-christian in a long time, but an online friend directed me to your thread today. My life currently parallels yours in so many ways. I've been married over 30 years and have 5 children. I have been a lifelong member of a fundamentalist sect, the church of Christ. I studied my way out of Christianity in much the same way you did. Over two years ago, I realized I was an atheist, one year ago I told my husband. Since then he pretty much refuses to engage on the subject unless I insist. He is a deacon and would lose his position if I came out. I would lose most, if not all, my friends and family members, since our live has revolved around christianity. The unfairness of it can be tremendously irritating.

 

Is it a non-instrumental Church of Christ? (I was in the Christian Church/Church of Christ movement for 34 years.)

[CircesSong]

I don’t know if you’re experiencing this too or not, but one of the scarier aspects of deconverting has been looking back at my major life choices and wondering if I would have made the same choices if I’d been an atheist the whole time. There are a lot of things that I would do differently if I could go back in time. And part of me (not all of me, just a little part) has a deep down fear, a fear that’s difficult to for me to acknowledge, that maybe my marriage is one of those choices that would have been different.

 

But then I remember that while Christianity was a factor in us choosing each other, there were tons of other factors too. There were hundreds of other available Christian people in my vicinity that I could have chosen; he was special to me for a multitude of reasons that had nothing to do with Christianity. And I was special to him for a multitude of reasons that had nothing to do with Christianity. And all of those other reasons are still true.

I agree that it's important to remember that we chose our partner for reasons that are not entirely related to religion, so don't pin everything on that.  I need to remind myself of this. 

 

Deconversion is so complicated.  

[RexJamesson]

Hello, CircesSong!  I am BRAND NEW here (this is my very first post).  But it was reading your story that compelled me to join in the first place - so I could check in on you.  I was so gripped by your story, and it matches mine so completely (it sounds as if you're finding so much common ground here, but few solutions :-( )

 

I deconverted last summer, after almost 5 decades in conservative Christianity and after raising my kids in a Christian school (but now I have a 15-month-old grandson and the through of his indoctrination just absolutely sickens me - so it's like the concern of child-rearing).  I won't bloat this with all the other personal details - I want to get right to what I hope might help.  Much of the rest of it is what you'd expect: I'm going through horrible torment pulling out from the church where I served as the pastor's lay-person sidekick for years; everybody who knows anything about my deconversion is insisting I read so-and-so's book, etc.

 

The big commonality and the thing that can almost bring tears to my eyes is that feeling of being trapped and alone with your spouse, and having no options - that whole sense of a life that's no longer under your control.  I feel that way sometimes too.  My wife remains conservative Christian.  When I was on my way out, she noticed some changes in my prayer life and the way I acted around Christian platitudes, so she asked some pointed questions.  When I responded with what at that time were merely doubts, she started out very quietly, asking questions, trying to clarify.  I naively thought, "wow, this is great!  She's respecting my process and actually being helpful!"  She left it go for several days ("wow!").  And then all HELL broke loose: there were explosive sessions, broken things - one day she just went outside and tore out our garden (it was the end of the season anyway), because of the unbearable feelings she had.  She yelled, cajoled, told me I was going to hell, told me how horrible it was for the spiritual leader of the family to not believe; told me that she was having trouble even respecting me anymore if this is what I believed.  It was hell.  But I also (probably much like you) accepted that this person who was flying at me in a rage wasn't actually my wife - you'd have to know her, she's sweet, caring, compassionate, yet strong.  But these Christian mind-control memes, when poked, completely work at the amygdala level - basic fear and the most primal of emotions are the response of a mind that is programmed to be protected from a threat to faith!  The worst of these conversations still happen, often with lesser intensity, but let me get on to what is hopeful for me, and may be useful for you or others like us...

 

You already know it doesn't work to come right out and state our views.  That triggers that intensely visceral response.  But what's really worked on a couple occasions for me was just to ask some questions: "I just am not sure I understand how Genesis 1 and beginning of Genesis 2 work - they show a different order of creation...", "I don't get it: Eve was made from Adam's rib, right?  So then wouldn't she be an actual clone of Adam, and not even a person?  The bible doesn't say anything about a special genetic miracle, and I don't understand how this could work."  "I'm confused about the morality here in Numbers 31: how come all people are to be killed, young and old, even babies, but god wants Moses to let the people keep the virgin girls - in fact, taking 32 of them for god too?  That seems wrong, what am I missing?".  And so on.  Morality, contradictions, obvious errors vis-a-vis science.  The thing is, I just very very carefully planted these things in her mind.  Let them set.  Tried not to push.  Eventually many of them come back to me.  More than once they come back snarky or bitter, but - here's the hope - she has admitted that she doesn't see how she can believe the bible is inerrant now either!  Wow!  It's been 8 months, and it's a TINY gain (she still backpedals on that a lot), but please, if you get a chance, ask a question here or there.  You have to be ever so careful that not the slightest bit of cynicism or sarcasm isn't detected (and believe me, if you push to hard, even honestly, you'll be accused of sarcasm!).

 

I hope to write more later, if you're interested. I'm still struggling with this myself, and in the end I'll be thrilled if I can count the number of years it takes for a resolution on one hand!  These are TERRIBLE mind-control methods that we're up against, and it's a struggle, but it seems your (and my) only and best option.

[★ Citsonga ★]

^^^ Welcome, RJ! I'm honored to be the first person to get to give you an up-vote.

[GuyGone]

Well, and on the subject of beliefs, Jesus clearly said not to resist an evil person (Matt 5).  Now there are a lot of atheists who will falsely say that Christians all take the Bible literally (even poetic things like Psalms and figures of speech that Jesus used).  But what Jesus said about resisting an evil person did not seem to be hyperbole.  So if you take that at face value, then if your daughter (if you have one) wakes up to find a rapist in her bedroom one day, she just has to cooperate because she can't resist and certainly can't defend herself against someone who is evil.   It would be wrong for a Christian to resist a Hitler because he was clearly an evil person. Now of course, we have all kinds of excuses for why this doesn't mean what it says. But all of them are an attempt to make an obviously silly idea conform to reality as we know it.  We can say it was hyperbole like the part about cutting off your hand, but the clear meaning seems to be that Christians are supposed to be passive when they encounter evil.  In the church we often gloss over things like this by saying that we need to be kind to people who aren't kind (often true).  But this isn't about having reasonable boundaries, that verse is about having no boundaries when you encounter an evil person.  That should set off all kinds of alarms.

 

I had real issues with the first two chapters of Job.  People who preach or teach from Job tend to skip over the first two chapters, or they condense it down to Satan accusing God.  But it was God who pointed out Job to Satan, so God instigated everything. 

 

One way to handle things like this is, rather than make them accusations (how can you believe this?), make them questions (I just can't see how to get past this scripture and that scripture).  Make it about you.  People don't respond well to accusations, especially about faith. So make it about your difficulty with faith (which is really what the root of the issue is anyway - in other words, it's really true).  The arguments are over her response.  In other words, don't try to convince her that she's wrong, that's not your job anyway.  Just explain the things that give you pause and why.

[CircesSong]

Hello, CircesSong!  I am BRAND NEW here (this is my very first post).  But it was reading your story that compelled me to join in the first place - so I could check in on you.  I was so gripped by your story, and it matches mine so completely (it sounds as if you're finding so much common ground here, but few solutions :-( )

 

I deconverted last summer, after almost 5 decades in conservative Christianity and after raising my kids in a Christian school (but now I have a 15-month-old grandson and the through of his indoctrination just absolutely sickens me - so it's like the concern of child-rearing).  I won't bloat this with all the other personal details - I want to get right to what I hope might help.  Much of the rest of it is what you'd expect: I'm going through horrible torment pulling out from the church where I served as the pastor's lay-person sidekick for years; everybody who knows anything about my deconversion is insisting I read so-and-so's book, etc.

 

The big commonality and the thing that can almost bring tears to my eyes is that feeling of being trapped and alone with your spouse, and having no options - that whole sense of a life that's no longer under your control.  I feel that way sometimes too.  My wife remains conservative Christian.  When I was on my way out, she noticed some changes in my prayer life and the way I acted around Christian platitudes, so she asked some pointed questions.  When I responded with what at that time were merely doubts, she started out very quietly, asking questions, trying to clarify.  I naively thought, "wow, this is great!  She's respecting my process and actually being helpful!"  She left it go for several days ("wow!").  And then all HELL broke loose: there were explosive sessions, broken things - one day she just went outside and tore out our garden (it was the end of the season anyway), because of the unbearable feelings she had.  She yelled, cajoled, told me I was going to hell, told me how horrible it was for the spiritual leader of the family to not believe; told me that she was having trouble even respecting me anymore if this is what I believed.  It was hell.  But I also (probably much like you) accepted that this person who was flying at me in a rage wasn't actually my wife - you'd have to know her, she's sweet, caring, compassionate, yet strong.  But these Christian mind-control memes, when poked, completely work at the amygdala level - basic fear and the most primal of emotions are the response of a mind that is programmed to be protected from a threat to faith!  The worst of these conversations still happen, often with lesser intensity, but let me get on to what is hopeful for me, and may be useful for you or others like us...

 

You already know it doesn't work to come right out and state our views.  That triggers that intensely visceral response.  But what's really worked on a couple occasions for me was just to ask some questions: "I just am not sure I understand how Genesis 1 and beginning of Genesis 2 work - they show a different order of creation...", "I don't get it: Eve was made from Adam's rib, right?  So then wouldn't she be an actual clone of Adam, and not even a person?  The bible doesn't say anything about a special genetic miracle, and I don't understand how this could work."  "I'm confused about the morality here in Numbers 31: how come all people are to be killed, young and old, even babies, but god wants Moses to let the people keep the virgin girls - in fact, taking 32 of them for god too?  That seems wrong, what am I missing?".  And so on.  Morality, contradictions, obvious errors vis-a-vis science.  The thing is, I just very very carefully planted these things in her mind.  Let them set.  Tried not to push.  Eventually many of them come back to me.  More than once they come back snarky or bitter, but - here's the hope - she has admitted that she doesn't see how she can believe the bible is inerrant now either!  Wow!  It's been 8 months, and it's a TINY gain (she still backpedals on that a lot), but please, if you get a chance, ask a question here or there.  You have to be ever so careful that not the slightest bit of cynicism or sarcasm isn't detected (and believe me, if you push to hard, even honestly, you'll be accused of sarcasm!).

 

I hope to write more later, if you're interested. I'm still struggling with this myself, and in the end I'll be thrilled if I can count the number of years it takes for a resolution on one hand!  These are TERRIBLE mind-control methods that we're up against, and it's a struggle, but it seems your (and my) only and best option.

Thank you for sharing your story and insights. 

 

I agree that it is harmful to the relationship to come at it in anything that resembles attacking the beliefs. A huge defense wall comes up and the person automatically assumes that you think they're "an idiot" for their christian beliefs, probably because deep down they know it's illogical and it hurts to have their loved one now in the place that they formerly reserved for "the others/outsiders/those damned to hell." It's so confusing and scary to have their spouse/loved one now in enemy territory. 

 

I think you're brave for being so open about your deconversion with your church. I haven't done so yet, but this is only because my children are young and I have to tread very carefully here as to not decimate my family and its structure. I'm wading carefully and slowly and not sure how public I am going to be able to make my new belief system. 

 

I ache for your pain, and my own. It is so incredibly isolating and difficult. 

[LongWayAround]

I wanted to join in to offer encouragement and to say good luck with whichever path you choose.

 

I have been deconverted for a few years now.  My wife continues to be a devote christian.  When I first came out to her, we had a lot of in-depth conversations about what I believed or didn't believe and why.  Then after a while, she did not want to talk about it any more.  I don't bring it up either but will answer honestly and gently if she asks me a religious based question.

 

When I came out about deconverting, my wife ramped up her at-home bible study and general religiousity to an even higher level.  This lasted for at least a year and half but has tapered off now.  I have read of similar occurrences from other christian spouses on this site.

 

I felt guilty about deconverting and like I let her down because I know how important it is to her to be married to a devout christian man.  As a compromise, I told her when I came out to her, that I would continue to attend the Sunday morning service with her but no other church related activities.  We started attending a much larger church so that no one would notice at the old church when I was suddenly not participating.

 

My overall focus with her has been to be the best husband that I can.  I wanted to show her through my actions that belief in a god or trying to follow scriptures has no impact at all on my morals or my actions.  I was very worried for a while that she would not want to be married to me if I was a christian.  I don't really even think about that any more.

 

I came out to the rest of my family about six months after coming out to my wife.  My dad has been a leader in their church since I was young and my mom plays the piano.  They want to debate evolution, existence of god, etc. with me but are really not knowledgeable at all about the topics other than what they have heard in church.  The conversations are uncomfortable but they don't get ugly.  They tell me quite often that they are praying for me.  However, they have been really good about not letting our differences in believe get in the way of our relationship.

 

Overall, I feel like I am able to live openly and honestly as who I really am.  It feels very good to not have to pretend I am something I am not.  My heart really goes out to you for that.  Good luck with the counseling and with trying to work through the situation.  I hope that you are also able to get to the place where you can live true to yourself.