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Goodbye Jesus

The Flesh And The Spirit


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Keep thinking that the flesh and the spirit and Spirit are distinct entities. Just wanted to put this out there for discussion. It appears per casual observation that the flesh is powerless without direction.

So what I observe is three entities:

 

The flesh or our bodies.

A spirit that produces an outcome of natural.

And a spirit that produces "godly", for the other in the transaction/relationship.....godly being all the standard positive descriptions/outcomes yada yada.

 

Appears we may choose via discipline which spirit we union with our body.

 

Thoughts, and thanks for participation.

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I see your three "entities" as three descriptions.  The actual evidence suggests that the first has emergent properties which encompass the second and third.

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It appears per casual observation that the flesh is powerless without direction.

Powerless over what?

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It appears per casual observation that the flesh is powerless without direction.

Powerless over what?

 

Powerless like the body being a collection of cells without an "operating system". I guess I am saying the body is nothing without a soul.
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I see your three "entities" as three descriptions.  The actual evidence suggests that the first has emergent properties which encompass the second and third.

Kneejerk here, but why are we not all sociopaths? Just saying it seems like a very complex set of emergent properties...actions and resultant feelings.

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I see your three "entities" as three descriptions.  The actual evidence suggests that the first has emergent properties which encompass the second and third.

Kneejerk here, but why are we not all sociopaths? Just saying it seems like a very complex set of emergent properties...actions and resultant feelings.

 

 

 

Sociopaths tend not to contribute to the gene pool.

 

Yes, emergent properties can be complex.  The humans brain, a certain collection and arrangement of matter and energy, is a good example.

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It appears per casual observation that the flesh is powerless without direction.

Powerless over what?

 

Powerless like the body being a collection of cells without an "operating system". I guess I am saying the body is nothing without a soul.

 

I am open to a discussion on this, but there are operative things that I need to understand to further our discussion. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "operating system" and by what you mean in regards to a "soul"?

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No offence but I found the initial post to be an incoherent mess. Please rephrase it.

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No offence but I found the initial post to be an incoherent mess. Please rephrase it.

That's because I really haven't formed a consensus in my mind about my observations. Basically I see the body as just literally flesh without some sort of spirit to move it.

 

Given the choice of spirits, natural or natural that attempts to yield positive outcomes for all encountered......that this is a really good observation of the human condition.

 

As Sray mentions before, maybe it's just emergent properties and we are stuck in the middle of diverging emergence.

 

And to Storm, I'm not sure a soul discussion is where we would need to go bc I'm not sure we would get an answer....not that we are going to anyhow.

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Electrical and chemical activity in the brain control or initiate responses in the cells of the entire connected organism. 

 

I can't actually see electricity or chemical reactions, only their results. I guess it must be magic.

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It appears per casual observation that the flesh is powerless without direction.

Powerless over what?

 

Powerless like the body being a collection of cells without an "operating system". I guess I am saying the body is nothing without a soul.

 

I am open to a discussion on this, but there are operative things that I need to understand to further our discussion. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "operating system" and by what you mean in regards to a "soul"?

 

Probably a bad choice on my part. I'm guessing there are the functions of the body that we recognize, the chemistry and physics that we know. I'm still not sure how that yields "choice". For example, if it's nothing more than physiology, what mechanism yields my ability to choose good for the relationships I'm in vs. harmful.

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I see your three "entities" as three descriptions.  The actual evidence suggests that the first has emergent properties which encompass the second and third.

Kneejerk here, but why are we not all sociopaths? Just saying it seems like a very complex set of emergent properties...actions and resultant feelings.

 

 

 

Sociopaths tend not to contribute to the gene pool.

 

Yes, emergent properties can be complex.  The humans brain, a certain collection and arrangement of matter and energy, is a good example.

 

So just a question from ignorance, but who wins the fight, genetics or emergent properties? Maybe this is a bad question

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Electrical and chemical activity in the brain control or initiate responses in the cells of the entire connected organism. 

 

I can't actually see electricity or chemical reactions, only their results. I guess it must be magic.

 

 

I know that coffee is usually responsible for my brain activity. :)

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So just a question from ignorance, but who wins the fight, genetics or emergent properties? Maybe this is a bad question

 

 

 

Genetics itself is an emergent property.  So, I would rephrase your question to, "What happens when there are competing or contradictory emergent properties within the same system?"

 

Is that a question you would like to discuss?  Of course, we would have to first identify other emergent properties that actually compete or contradict genetics.

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I see your three "entities" as three descriptions.  The actual evidence suggests that the first has emergent properties which encompass the second and third.

 

Do you have a link? I need something to read today.

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I am open to a discussion on this, but there are operative things that I need to understand to further our discussion. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "operating system" and by what you mean in regards to a "soul"?

 

Probably a bad choice on my part. I'm guessing there are the functions of the body that we recognize, the chemistry and physics that we know. I'm still not sure how that yields "choice". For example, if it's nothing more than physiology, what mechanism yields my ability to choose good for the relationships I'm in vs. harmful.

 

From a biopsychosocial perspective, Biology, Psychology, and Sociology all play an integral part in your decisions, harmful or not. Your mind works a certain way because of genetics and biology, which in turn also affects the way it operates. This operation, or how you think, is also influenced by how others think and what they convey to you. Your brain then accepts or rejects their thinking, based on its own worldview. These three all work together to create your Weltanschauung, or all encompassing worldview. Its a flawed view, for sure, but one that constantly adapts and changes based on your experiences and the experiences of others, as well as biological factors as well. So, there is not one single mechanism that makes your decisions, but a whole system.

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It appears per casual observation that the flesh is powerless without direction.

Powerless over what?

 

Powerless like the body being a collection of cells without an "operating system". I guess I am saying the body is nothing without a soul.

 

Um... animals?

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I'm beginning to see animals as individuals more nowadays. Less evolved but some have very distinct personalities it appears. Not so different from us in a few ways

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I see your three "entities" as three descriptions.  The actual evidence suggests that the first has emergent properties which encompass the second and third.

 

Do you have a link? I need something to read today.

 

 

 

Just do a search for "emergent property" or "emergence".

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I'm beginning to see animals as individuals more nowadays. Less evolved but some have very distinct personalities it appears. Not so different from us in a few ways

I've had half a dozen cats and known a whole bunch of dogs and they are indeed individuals. Very much so at that. This is of course not at all surprising when you take into account the vast similarities among mammals. Most of the neurotransmitters running through the nervous system of my dog are the same as in a human. Biology is pretty damn fascinating. Reducing it to six days, an apple and a snake is a mockery of the beauty of the World, and indeed, God, if you happen to believe in him.

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I'm beginning to see animals as individuals more nowadays. Less evolved but some have very distinct personalities it appears. Not so different from us in a few ways

I've had half a dozen cats and known a whole bunch of dogs and they are indeed individuals. Very much so at that. This is of course not at all surprising when you take into account the vast similarities among mammals. Most of the neurotransmitters running through the nervous system of my dog are the same as in a human. Biology is pretty damn fascinating. Reducing it to six days, an apple and a snake is a mockery of the beauty of the World, and indeed, God, if you happen to believe in him.

 

Combine all this and the fact that animals can express empathy without god, and the whole christian framework just falls apart. 

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So after reading a little, I'm understanding that we may neither predict emergent properties going from simple to complex nor predict the simple from complex emergent.

 

Seems like a leap of faith in there Lucy....

 

Is what I was reading old?

 

Edit: I'm certain we may to some extent....I'm assuming the level of complexity limits predictability at some point.

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I am open to a discussion on this, but there are operative things that I need to understand to further our discussion. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "operating system" and by what you mean in regards to a "soul"?

 

Probably a bad choice on my part. I'm guessing there are the functions of the body that we recognize, the chemistry and physics that we know. I'm still not sure how that yields "choice". For example, if it's nothing more than physiology, what mechanism yields my ability to choose good for the relationships I'm in vs. harmful.

From a biopsychosocial perspective, Biology, Psychology, and Sociology all play an integral part in your decisions, harmful or not. Your mind works a certain way because of genetics and biology, which in turn also affects the way it operates. This operation, or how you think, is also influenced by how others think and what they convey to you. Your brain then accepts or rejects their thinking, based on its own worldview. These three all work together to create your Weltanschauung, or all encompassing worldview. Its a flawed view, for sure, but one that constantly adapts and changes based on your experiences and the experiences of others, as well as biological factors as well. So, there is not one single mechanism that makes your decisions, but a whole system.

 

thank you.

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So after reading a little, I'm understanding that we may neither predict emergent properties going from simple to complex nor predict the simple from complex emergent.

 

Seems like a leap of faith in there Lucy....

 

Is what I was reading old?

 

Edit: I'm certain we may to some extent....I'm assuming the level of complexity limits predictability at some point.

 

 

Emergent properties exist.  That is reality.  It is evidence.  Being able to predict what properties may emerge from a system, or not being able to so predict, has nothing whatsoever to do with faith.  For example, we predict hurricanes before they emerge from certain weather and climate conditions.  We're actually pretty good at it.  We cannot predict the emergence of earthquakes to the same specificity at all.  We are not very good at that.  

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