Jesus Is One Of My Favorite Rabbis - 20 Years In Fundamentalism

[PragmaticIdealist]

I grew up in conservative and reform Judaism. Basically we were taught to follow the golden rule, respect Jewish cultural traditions and question everything, including the Tanakh (Old Testament). In my sixth decade I still follow my "Sunday School" teachings. 

 

At twenty I married a lapsed Catholic after three years of dating. With the birth of our first child, eight years later my wife wanted to attend a (non-Catholic) church. Two of her four sisters had become born-again Christians and we went to their church. In a short time my wife joined them. This led to many problems which I'll not go into here except to say that we just celebrated our fortieth anniversary and are very happy. 

 

I found the preaching to be compelling and a few months after my wife I found myself praying to receive Jesus as my personal savior; actually three times, because it didn't quite take. As I strained to detect contact with the Almighty all I could be sure of was my own emotional turmoil. So I was caught in a middle ground, a gray area in a black and white universe.

 

I also became very active with Jewish-Christians, playing music at a weekly meeting and even attending a Jews for Jesus ingathering where I shared two meals with Moishe Rosen. 

 

I still count many good friends among the congregation including many of the ministers but I was also hated by many. My initial burst of enthusiasm caused me to read the New Testament for the first time and I was dismayed and confused that it did not support, and in some cases contradicted, what I was hearing from the pulpit. I only spoke privately about my widening differences with fundie theology but as the church drifted into young earth creationism and revisionist american history I spoke out in opposition. I actually received some hate mail in response.

 

Towards the end of my twenty years as an active participant, albeit a doubting one, I spent several years at the Walk Away from Fundamentalism forum dealing with an amount of anger which surprised me. That forum disappeared and I have just found this one. I hope to continue analyzing the disparate elements of Christianity and the New Testament in order to, as Thomas Jefferson said, separate the diamonds from the shit pile. As a rabbi, Jesus was in a tradition previously recorded in the Dead Sea Scrolls and there are writings attributed to him which I still closely identify with.

 

Finally, I hope that my own experience, over thirty years removed from my first plunge into fundamentalism, may offer useful perspective to others.

[hockeyfan70]

Welcome to the forum! A few years ago, I became interested in the Messianic Jewish movement. I had a couple of friends from my home church join a Messianic Jewish congregation, and there's a guy in this area that talks a lot about the Jewishness of Jesus. Rob Bell, one of my favorite Christian authors, draws heavily from early Christian Jewish thoughts. Anyway, I look forward to your perspective!

 

(I'm not a Christian anymore, but some of that stuff still fascinates me.)

[qadeshet]

I hope to continue analyzing the disparate elements of Christianity and the New Testament in order to, as Thomas Jefferson said, separate the diamonds from the shit pile.

 

 

Treat others the way you wish to be treated. There's not much else.

[Blood]

The supposed "teachings of Jesus" were undoubtedly written by the non-Jewish evangelists who dreamed up the gospels. The "teachings" serve a specific literary purpose, to make Jewish claims on the Bible illegitimate by slandering all Jews. I find nothing compelling or interesting about this literary technique. 

[PragmaticIdealist]

The supposed "teachings of Jesus" were undoubtedly written by the non-Jewish evangelists who dreamed up the gospels. The "teachings" serve a specific literary purpose, to make Jewish claims on the Bible illegitimate by slandering all Jews. I find nothing compelling or interesting about this literary technique. 

 

I don't think you've read the Beatitudes with an open mind. There is hatred, but there is much else. The contradictory nature allows people to selectively edit to get particular messages. For instance one of the strongest messages in the new Testament is one that most Christians completely ignore:

 

Mat 6:12  And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 

...

Mat 6:14  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 

Mat 6:15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. 

 

Can you find a stronger statement in the NT than this one which demands nonjudgmental love and forgiveness and precludes hate? I could list perhaps a dozen other verses which say essentially the same thing.

 

Precisely why it is excluded from almost all Christian teaching and preaching. 

[Blood]

That's because Matthew is trying to make the Jesus character a Moses for Gentiles. 

[PragmaticIdealist]

Here's the thing. We have no idea who the author is. When I read something, or hear some music, which stirs me a resonates with me, I don't stop to research the writer/musician to see if he/she is a worthy person. If I did so I'd often be disappointed. The work stands by itself. 

 

Since you no doubt accept that the Bible is a an anthology of a great many writers each expressing a personal opinion/belief and consequently contradicting each other then it follows that condemning all the writers/writings because someone centuries later collected them into a particular anthology is nonsensical.

 

I don't know you, but the opinion you express is a common one I've encountered from former fundies who tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater by retaining the black and white thinking and false dichotomies, rejecting only a specific set of dogma. This is why rabid fundies tend to become rabid atheists.

[Blood]

I'm not a former fundy, but if I were that would be irrelevant to my observations. 

[florduh]

Here's the thing. We have no idea who the author is. When I read something, or hear some music, which stirs me a resonates with me, I don't stop to research the writer/musician to see if he/she is a worthy person. If I did so I'd often be disappointed. The work stands by itself. 

 

Since you no doubt accept that the Bible is a an anthology of a great many writers each expressing a personal opinion/belief and consequently contradicting each other then it follows that condemning all the writers/writings because someone centuries later collected them into a particular anthology is nonsensical.

 

I don't know you, but the opinion you express is a common one I've encountered from former fundies who tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater by retaining the black and white thinking and false dichotomies, rejecting only a specific set of dogma. This is why rabid fundies tend to become rabid atheists.

And Hitler loved his dog. Neo Nazis love their mothers.

 

So what? The Bible is essentially the story of a god who creates life only to destroy it at his whim. The Abrahamic god is so distasteful that it is only reasonable that we discard it all. There is no baby, only dirty bathwater. The smattering of "good" parts in the book are not even original thoughts, so I would say if you like reading inspirational words, go to the original sources.

[dangitbobby83]

I don't know you, but the opinion you express is a common one I've encountered from former fundies who tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater by retaining the black and white thinking and false dichotomies, rejecting only a specific set of dogma. This is why rabid fundies tend to become rabid atheists.

 

The "good parts" of the bible can also be found in other writings around the world. The bible holds no special authority on wisdom. 

 

Forgive and forget. 

Treat others like you want to be treated.

Love each other.

 

These are all good concepts that most people will accept without needing any sort of book to tell them to do so otherwise.

 

However, us atheists are not thinking in black and white - we reject the bible because it takes good concepts up and ties them to a NEED for God/Jesus. 

 

Forgive and forget...because you've been forgiven by Jesus.

Treat others like you want to be treated...because you deserve hell and yet Jesus is treating you better than what you deserve.

Love each other...because Jesus loved you first.

 

Instead of being good for the sake of being good, its be good because Jesus/God. 

 

In rejecting the bible, myself (and others here) are tossing out the dirty bathwater, which is ultimately "you don't need god to be good", which many christians will tell you - that's the entire bible - you need god to be good/worth anything. You certainly don't need to be a christian to forgive, love, and obey the golden rule. 

 

As a "rabid atheist" - I reject the second parts - the need for Jesus, which means I must reject the bible. I've not seen any evidence that shows universally good concepts are owned by a deity - any deity. That's not black and white thinking. It's simply being skeptical that a deity exists and owns any wisdom at all.

[TheLyniezian]

I think the problem with what some people are saying here is that it's neglecting the importance one's particular traditions and cultural inheritance have for some people. Indeed, some would say that was originally the whole point of religions and myths- to give people some kind of shared identity and to serve as a basis for society. So, whilst it is true that much of what is valuable in Biblical wisdom is not necessarily unique- such as the Golden Rule- if you have been brought up in a tradition which respects that, or some associated religious tradition, it's what you will think of first and be most inspired by. Again, it's not wrong to look at it from a historical perspective and see what some of the writers were trying to do within the framework of their belief system, even if much of that belief system is inherently false. Or to see how there are underlying secular motives for many people couched in religious language and understanding. Just as, say, I can appreciate the architectural merits of Durham Cathedral without having to feel the need to attend Evensong (which I have done about once in my student days) one can appreciate the Bible for its merits without having to bother with the God bit or feel justified in permitting slavery and stoning people to death for picking up sticks on a Saturday.

[PragmaticIdealist]

I've read thousands of books and perhaps a dozen that have had profound effects on my life. The NT happens to be one of them.

 

Some others:

Goedel Escher Bach   -  Hofstadter

The Varieties of Religious Experience  -  James

Man's Search for Meaning  -  Frankl

A Philosophy of Solitude  -  Powys

Writings  -  Heraclitus

The Ethics  -  Spinoza

[florduh]

Here is a true and useful bit of wisdom from literature:

 

As I have said, only a very credulous soul could think of binding himself to observe the rules of the game when he has to face a player for whom those rules are nothing but a mere bluff or a means of serving his own interests, which means he will discard them when they prove no longer useful for his purpose. 

 

 

I guess 'Mein Kampf' is worth a closer look.

[Storm]

Stupid people occasionally utter smart stuff. Smart people occasionally utter stupid stuff. Neither speaker diminishes the truth or stupidity because of their own standing.