Honesty With Myself.

[Abrooks2007]

AbsolvedofFaith-Reading your recent posts in this thread has brought me to the absolute closest in throwing all of my religious texts in the trash.  Or burning them.

 

I look at my old self during my brief time with the Foursquare people and wonder..."How did I get mixed up with these nutcases?"  And then, to be physically and verbally abused as a child...ugh.  I agree with the others...you should get the damage healed...by REAL, LOVING people.  That's what got me through the last several years.

 

I hope we can continue to communicate.  One day at a time...definitely hang out with us. :-D

 

Andrew

[josh1975]

so much pain so much hurt, just in the name of following Christ.  Where is Jesus when all his "friends" and "sons and daughters" are being abused ? I feel like still living in the past all the time, keep talking to this absentee God asking why ?  Still angry with him, and play the "what if " mind game.  Every day I have to force myself to think positive, make new friends and create your own happiness.  But the scar are still there and fester from time to time.

 

Thank you for sharing, really good we are in this together

[Margee]

When you have a relationship with anyone for any length of time, (and that includes an invisible friend that we could never see and yet believed in so strongly) it always takes time to heal. Go easy on yourselves. Josh, you ask if you ever get over it? Yes and no. A piece of it will always be in your heart. (for me anyway) When you love and you end up getting hurt, you continue to love the memories of that love when it was good, even though it did not work out. But you learn how to live without that love, just like when a person dies.

 

((hug))

[AbsolvedOfFaith]

You were seriously abused as a child by trusted adults.  It's not your fault, although you have to process and heal the damage done to you by those same trusted adults.

 

One symptom/sign/indication of that healing is the ratio between how much time you spend thinking/feeling/processing about your past and how much time you spend thinking/feeling/processing about your future.  This is a measure of your present state.

 

Be patient and steadfast.  Explore hobbies.  Exercise your intellect.

 

Good luck.

 

Thank you for saying this. Yes, I'm working with both a psychiatrist and a psychologist right now. Baby steps. I'm a lot better than where I was over a year ago, when wanting to even think about it would just make me curl up in a corner somewhere. 

 

What's interesting to me is that until my faith began to seriously crumble I never questioned anything my parent's did. And I think, really that's because it's hard to argue with it from the faith perspective. Proverbs speaks many, many times of how it's not only okay, but necessary to physically beat a child in order for them to turn into a "good" child, and if a parent doesn't, that child will turn out like a fool. Children are required both in the old and new testaments to obey and honor their parents, regardless of how their parents behave (similar to how wives must submit to their husbands, regardless of how they behave, and how there is no "get out of jail" card for abusive marriages in the Bible). 

 

I just figured I was a really rebellious kid and I needed it. The amount of self-flagellation Christianity calls for is incredible. I once had a pastor friend who, when he was asked how he was doing for the day, would cheerfully reply: "Better than I deserve!"

 

What the fuck, right? I remember trying that once on a secular boss of mine. His response was classic: "What sort of a masochist says that?" 

 

 

 

It was like watching a psychotic ant walk from one end of a stick to the other and brag about it's big journey and spiritual steadfastness.  We had a lot of money and opportunity before she took us on a whirlwind trip around the world. 

 

 

This is the best imagery ever. Yes, this is exactly what it was like for me. Who knew buying a pie from the grocery store could have been a special errand from the lord himself? It should give pause to think about how narcissistic a person has to be to believe every thought in their skull isn't their thought, but a direct line to the alpha and omega of the universe.

 

 

God Fucking DAMN! AOF, welcome to reality. It's much better here than the world of magic, angry gods and false hope based on absolute bullshit... Much, much, much better. You sound you like were on the perpetual guilt-trip train like I was when I was in the faith. It's hell on the confidence but great for low self-esteem and insecurity! 

 

31 years of a guilt train. It's embarrassing that I spent that long trying to fit in. I've heard it said insanity is trying to do the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Then again, it was everything I knew. It's weird to look at my past self even two or three years ago. Like looking back at being a member of the Borg collective. That was me, but then it also wasn't. I'm just now beginning to figure out who "me" really is. 

 

Like, when the economy took a nose dive in 2008 I was one of the many that lost their jobs. What were my Christian friends and family's response to this? Keep steadfastly attending church and tithing. Because I don't need to make my hours competitive with those who aren't going to bother taking days off, and god knows I need to buy food so hey let's give it to the church for a new church building instead. God will miracle me a check! I just need to have faith and believe. After all, it's happened to other people! Nevermind these other people are in positions of authority the congregation wants to impress.

 

I believed really hard, as if I had a belief-o-meter in my head and filled it with so much belief it shattered. But the harder I believed, the greater the disappointment and internal condemnation.

 

I did stop going to church though, and I actually lost friends because of this. Just by simply stopping my attendance so I could get a job. That was a sign I was becoming a lukewarm Christian. My priorities were wrong, I was told time and time again.

 

AbsolvedofFaith-Reading your recent posts in this thread has brought me to the absolute closest in throwing all of my religious texts in the trash.  Or burning them.

 

 

And that's another thing. I've realized that because I was never as "spiritual" as the other Christians I encountered, I found myself digging deeper and deeper into serious theological studies on my own time. By the time my Christianity had run its course, I knew the names of more Biblical scholars, apologists, denomination leaders, historical people, philosophical arguments, and eschatological interpretations than any Christian I knew. 

 

I'd like my honorary doctoral degree in theology now, please.

 

And still, it never got me into the special circles in church. I was always the outcast. Of course, back then I knew what this made me. The evangelical Christian would say this is all "Head knowledge" -- not heart knowledge. 

 

Never good enough. Probably why the only secular band I listened to was Nine Inch Nails. 

 

so much pain so much hurt, just in the name of following Christ.  Where is Jesus when all his "friends" and "sons and daughters" are being abused ? I feel like still living in the past all the time, keep talking to this absentee God asking why ?  Still angry with him, and play the "what if " mind game.  Every day I have to force myself to think positive, make new friends and create your own happiness.  But the scar are still there and fester from time to time.

 

Thank you for sharing, really good we are in this together

 

What I'm reminded of is the story of one of the evangelists for one of the Great Awakenings. It might have been Jonathan Edwards or George Whitefield. I don't feel like looking it up. In any event, the story goes this evangelist/missionary/whatever is traveling along and realizes he hasn't been persecuted for some time now, and becomes fearful that he's done something wrong. He cries out to god asking about it, and just then some dude picks up a stone, chucks it at him, and curses him. The evangelist/missionary then thanks god and goes on his way. 

 

There is this incredible masochism within the Christian faith that you can trace throughout history, whether its nuns and monks practicing self-flagellation or the apostles singing songs in prison. I don't think preachers realize or even consider when they preach about how we should approach any suffering that it implies god takes joy in watching people in misery. 

 

When you have a relationship with anyone for any length of time, (and that includes an invisible friend that we could never see and yet believed in so strongly) it always takes time to heal. Go easy on yourselves. Josh, you ask if you ever get over it? Yes and no. A piece of it will always be in your heart. (for me anyway) When you love and you end up getting hurt, you continue to love the memories of that love when it was good, even though it did not work out. But you learn how to live without that love, just like when a person dies.

 

((hug))

 

This is so true. I will still, from time to time, find my mind wander out in search of a god I no longer believe in. It's impulsive, actually. Like, let's say I get a particularly bad panic attack. My mind will reflexively send a query out to a god I no longer believe in before I've even spent time to think about the situation. 

[AbsolvedOfFaith]

I know I'm committing a cardinal forum sin by double-posting, but I had the past two days off work to really muse about things and as I stared at my dinner plate, it all just kinda hit me. A good lasagna can do that, you know.

 

This has been an interesting little journey for me. About a year and a half ago, I had decided, with varying levels of anger and despair, that there was no God. I never expressed this to anyone, but I ceased all outward and inward semblance of living a Christian life.

 

Truthfully, I was fine with this. I didn’t think any deeper beyond deciding that all the pain and hurt I had experienced ultimately was God’s fault, dumping it all there, and forgetting about it. Life, of course, has a way of circling around and digging up old wounds. Three weeks ago I was approached with the idea that I might serve as a witness against my mother’s character in a courtroom, and that made me think about it all over again.

 

Talking about the abuse I experienced, publically, and in a courtroom environment sort of does that, I guess. And then I realized I had unfinished business with this new worldview I’d sort of jumped on but never fully digested. It all tied together so intimately, I needed to find a way to deal with it. To clear the air with myself and digest it all.

 

Well, this thread is the result of all that. Of course, it’s easy to say “Don’t you have a psychologist” for this sort of stuff? Why yes, I do, except 6 quick sessions of CBT spread out between months is great for daily living, but not internally processing decades of shit. But hey, that’s all insurance covers, and I’m grateful for what I get.

 

After getting everything out in the open, I don’t think I’m in a place where I’m capable of making this deep of a decision – to utterly discard one worldview for another.

 

 Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe my beef isn’t with God; maybe it’s just with humanity. Maybe it’s with me. But after clearing the air and “going public” I’m not ready to declare, with finality, where I stand because it seems a part of me, no matter how hard I try, wants to still believe.

 

There’s a Nine Inch Nails song that typifies these feelings. Underneath It All, from the Fragile album.

 

I’ve decided to keep believing. After everything I’ve gone through, maybe that makes me a fool, but as much as I want to deny it, I think it’s who I am. It's a part of me that I cannot kill or hack off.

 

Thanks again for your many encouraging comments and support, and thanks for reading my long-winded rants and presenting your ex-timonies. 

 

I feel better than I have in months.

 

Truly, thank you.

 

[hockeyfan70]

Thank you Andrew and Amateur. I'm feeling a particular drive to rant today, so consider this an addition to my original testimony. I guess it's not really a testimony of unbelief. Sort of like an appendix of shit that happened.

 

We'll call it the Fundamentalist Approach to (Not) Love. 

 

When I was a child and into my teen years, if I looked at a girl for any longer than a glance, at random, I'd spend the rest of the day being disciplined for lust. Yes, that's right. Looking at a fully clothed girl. I was whipped, restricted from something (television, friends, legos, whatever) and had to write out various verses on lust and recite them. Then there was the one time I dared to look at Jenny McCarthy in a bikini online (this was way long ago, late 90's). Hooooo boy. I got to watch my mother go apeshit on essentially my entire toy collection. Some friends got "bad influenced" and I was verboten to ever speak with them again. My butt was sizzling. 

 

It wasn't until late college and entering the workforce that I was able to break the subconscious habit I had developed of looking at the floor when around women. 

 

And, in case you're wondering, starting at around the age of 6 I was repeatedly told I shouldn't dare go to the authorities or talk to anyone about how I was treated or else I'd be taken from them and forced to live with drug-addicted freaks or some other horrible consequence. 

 

Dating and girlfriends is a curious case. My sect was of the belief that you don't date. That's right, God miracles you a wife or a husband, just like in the Bible! You know, with Adam and his ribs, or Isaac at the well. It just happens, man.

 

There's even a pious song by the Christian band Barlow Girls about not dating. Hell I'd forgotten about them until just now writing this up.

 

Anyhow, in practice there were dates you just didn't call them dates. You were friends, but you weren't. You went out to eat together, watched movies together, sat next to each other (so daring and sexual!), but you were not dating and you weren't boyfriend/girlfriend. 

 

Fuck if I know how that works. It didn't for me. God never spoke to these girls to tell them I was The One. It only seemed to work for the pastors/elders kids or whoever the worship leader was at the time. 

 

Of course, that was for the Christian girls. It was even more awkward for the non-Christian girls. I basically had to be "professional" with them, but what fucking kid knows what that even means. I just knew they were hot, they really, really wanted me, and I couldn't say a damn word to them or look at them. 

 

I have no clue what happened to my lack of a love life after exiting college and entering the workforce. I might have given up by then. I occasionally still got taken out on actual dates by non-believers in adulthood from time to time, but that was about the extent of it all.  I don't know. Depression and all that jazz. 

Are you talking about courtship?

 

When I was a youth minister in Dallas, I was pressured by some parents to push courtship in the youth group, because that was the Biblical way.

 

I said sarcastically, "Actually, if we want to go Biblical, we should be pushing arranged marriages. Because that's what they did back then for the most part."

 

It didn't go over well.

[LifeCycle]

 

You were seriously abused as a child by trusted adults.  It's not your fault, although you have to process and heal the damage done to you by those same trusted adults.

 

One symptom/sign/indication of that healing is the ratio between how much time you spend thinking/feeling/processing about your past and how much time you spend thinking/feeling/processing about your future.  This is a measure of your present state.

 

Be patient and steadfast.  Explore hobbies.  Exercise your intellect.

 

Good luck.

 

Thank you for saying this. Yes, I'm working with both a psychiatrist and a psychologist right now. Baby steps. I'm a lot better than where I was over a year ago, when wanting to even think about it would just make me curl up in a corner somewhere. 

 

What's interesting to me is that until my faith began to seriously crumble I never questioned anything my parent's did. And I think, really that's because it's hard to argue with it from the faith perspective. Proverbs speaks many, many times of how it's not only okay, but necessary to physically beat a child in order for them to turn into a "good" child, and if a parent doesn't, that child will turn out like a fool. Children are required both in the old and new testaments to obey and honor their parents, regardless of how their parents behave (similar to how wives must submit to their husbands, regardless of how they behave, and how there is no "get out of jail" card for abusive marriages in the Bible). 

 

I just figured I was a really rebellious kid and I needed it. The amount of self-flagellation Christianity calls for is incredible. I once had a pastor friend who, when he was asked how he was doing for the day, would cheerfully reply: "Better than I deserve!"

 

What the fuck, right? I remember trying that once on a secular boss of mine. His response was classic: "What sort of a masochist says that?" 

 

 

 

It was like watching a psychotic ant walk from one end of a stick to the other and brag about it's big journey and spiritual steadfastness.  We had a lot of money and opportunity before she took us on a whirlwind trip around the world. 

 

 

This is the best imagery ever. Yes, this is exactly what it was like for me. Who knew buying a pie from the grocery store could have been a special errand from the lord himself? It should give pause to think about how narcissistic a person has to be to believe every thought in their skull isn't their thought, but a direct line to the alpha and omega of the universe.

 

 

God Fucking DAMN! AOF, welcome to reality. It's much better here than the world of magic, angry gods and false hope based on absolute bullshit... Much, much, much better. You sound you like were on the perpetual guilt-trip train like I was when I was in the faith. It's hell on the confidence but great for low self-esteem and insecurity! 

 

31 years of a guilt train. It's embarrassing that I spent that long trying to fit in. I've heard it said insanity is trying to do the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. Then again, it was everything I knew. It's weird to look at my past self even two or three years ago. Like looking back at being a member of the Borg collective. That was me, but then it also wasn't. I'm just now beginning to figure out who "me" really is. 

 

Like, when the economy took a nose dive in 2008 I was one of the many that lost their jobs. What were my Christian friends and family's response to this? Keep steadfastly attending church and tithing. Because I don't need to make my hours competitive with those who aren't going to bother taking days off, and god knows I need to buy food so hey let's give it to the church for a new church building instead. God will miracle me a check! I just need to have faith and believe. After all, it's happened to other people! Nevermind these other people are in positions of authority the congregation wants to impress.

 

I believed really hard, as if I had a belief-o-meter in my head and filled it with so much belief it shattered. But the harder I believed, the greater the disappointment and internal condemnation.

 

I did stop going to church though, and I actually lost friends because of this. Just by simply stopping my attendance so I could get a job. That was a sign I was becoming a lukewarm Christian. My priorities were wrong, I was told time and time again.

 

 

The one phrase I've come to use a lot is this. Religion is a thief. It constantly steals from us in ways we cannot even quantify. Time, energy, money, potential, identity etc etc etc... Those at the top, leading the churches may have good intentions but they're ripping everyone in their congregation, right the fuck off. Perpetuating myths and selling false promises at the cost of people's lives. Yes, their lives. Their entire existence revolves around these falsehoods. Who or what would they have been without that? They'll never know. We'll never know. They're working towards eternal treasures in heaven when the sad reality is, not only is that treasure chest empty, it does not exist.