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Goodbye Jesus

Your God Is Too Small


ironhorse

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To bornagainathiest and quadeshet,

 

I really do appreciate your comments, thank you.
  
“I do not post in the other forums here on Ex-Christian.net.”
This wording is much clearer.

About the other forums here:

 

Your membership is to the whole of the Ex-Christian.net site and not just to the Lion's Den.  Separate membership of the other forums in Ex-C (Testimonies, General Christian Theological Issues, Ex-Christian Life, etc.) is not required.
~ BAA

 

BAA pointing this out just reminds me again how openly this place invites Christians to participate. Actually I was not aware of that the first few days after I joined.  I saw the Lion Den’s intro “Attention "True Christians" and former Christians” and the forum rules and jumped right in. I remember later on a member invited to view the other topics and post. I did post a few times in TOT and News and Current Events. I will keep reading in the other forums but read only.

 

“..why not any other Forums here.”
~ quadeshet

 

I decided that even though I allowed, I would not. Members and guests in the other forums are not expecting to find a believer there. It just did not feel right to me. I felt like an intruder. I think out of respect to this community it is best if I restrict myself to the Lion’s Den. Members and guests who come to the Lion’s Den are aware there might be Christians posting here.

 

Thank you again for your kind remarks.

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Thanks, ironhouse.

 

I can't speak for the Mods; but I am pretty sure that, as long as you leave Apologetics here, you will have no problems. All of us, here, are Family...I mean that. This is our Home on the WWW. And no Member is forced into the Arena. Your welcome to read and comment as much as you like. I think that you will like it. Be sure to check out my "To our Guests" Thread. You will see that we welcome everyone.Cheers!

 

Know Thyself!

Be Prudent!

 

To bornagainathiest and quadeshet,

 

I really do appreciate your comments, thank you.
  
“I do not post in the other forums here on Ex-Christian.net.”
This wording is much clearer.

About the other forums here:

 

Your membership is to the whole of the Ex-Christian.net site and not just to the Lion's Den.  Separate membership of the other forums in Ex-C (Testimonies, General Christian Theological Issues, Ex-Christian Life, etc.) is not required.
~ BAA

 

BAA pointing this out just reminds me again how openly this place invites Christians to participate. Actually I was not aware of that the first few days after I joined.  I saw the Lion Den’s intro “Attention "True Christians" and former Christians” and the forum rules and jumped right in. I remember later on a member invited to view the other topics and post. I did post a few times in TOT and News and Current Events. I will keep reading in the other forums but read only.

 

“..why not any other Forums here.”
~ quadeshet

 

I decided that even though I allowed, I would not. Members and guests in the other forums are not expecting to find a believer there. It just did not feel right to me. I felt like an intruder. I think out of respect to this community it is best if I restrict myself to the Lion’s Den. Members and guests who come to the Lion’s Den are aware there might be Christians posting here.

 

Thank you again for your kind remarks.

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"The one thing that bothers me is why there are so few Christians here."
 

I can actually answer this.

 

1. Because it's a place for ex-Christians. Literally the opposite of a Christian's interest (let's not get caught up in the question of evangelism).

 

Hence, not many will look for it in the first place.

 

2. Because it's a place for ex-christians to gather en masse, and christians find any mass denial of their faith very personally confronting when it comes with personal accounts and many, many strong arguments. I know I did. I also know that I wouldn't have had the mental strength to search for such a site and actually read it until I had psyched myself up for something like it, and that took me friggin years. Not a lot of Christians are at a point in their journeys where they can visit a place where people confront their most dearly-held beliefs at every turn, just by being themselves and talking about their lives. It's like feeling personally attacked, and nobody wants to be where they are attacked.

 

3. In relation to that, having any form of doubt in a belief on which you've based a substantial part of your life and your identity will create fear--fear of sunk costs and fear of a losing security. This fear is like attacking yourself. It's scary. If you can't even trust yourself and the decisions you've made (such as who and what to give your life up to) then who are you? Such doubt and fear are really awful to experience and people want to run away from it. Who can blame them? Maybe a little bit, but as I said, not everyone is at a point in their lives where they can deal with it.

 

Hence of those Christians who come, very very few will stay beyond reading a list of topics in the main forum for these reasons

 

4. Once they get here, many express themselves vigorously in a manner which isn't welcome--whether it's because they simply genuinely want to help others by converting them, or they're expressing their beliefs in an effort to drown out their own little voice of doubt, and they think if they can prove the people here wrong, they'll get rid of that voice in their heads. Often it's a combination of both. The result is too many old and new wounds torn open--and this is supposed to be, in some measure, a place of healing, safety, and freedom of thought. If you're healthy and you go into a hospital carrying a pair of scissors and opening everyone's stitches, they'll call security and throw you out. Even if you cut one stitch off one wound. Act in a manner that isn't conducive to the atmosphere of this place and you'll be ejected quite quickly.

 

Hence of those Christians who stay, few even consider behaving appropriately and in accordance with forum rules.

 

5. Debating is exhausting.

 

Even if you manage to navigate all of the above, people get tired of doing this day in day out. The only people who stay are the people who get positive feedback, and Christians very rarely do here. Partly their own fault, partly a difference in beliefs where their thoughts don't get rewarded.

 

Oh, and let's not forget that many Christians are too poor to even afford a computer or phone, let alone internet, let alone search this in the first place.

 

I think that's everything.

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7 members, 54 guests, 1 anonymous users

 

Austere, I really hope that ironhorse is happier outside the The Lion's Den.

We need Christians that know how to debate. You cannot debate unless you know your opponent's argument better than your own. He will like it here if we treat him as a Member. I think that it is doubt that he's afraid of. Please, everyone, don't get mad at him because he has no debate skills. We'll teach him to be a better debater. Remember, he's a fellow Member. I am afraid that ironhorse saw us as the enemy. Thanks for your insight. Cheers!

 

 

"The one thing that bothers me is why there are so few Christians here."
 

I can actually answer this.

 

1. Because it's a place for ex-Christians. Literally the opposite of a Christian's interest (let's not get caught up in the question of evangelism).

 

Hence, not many will look for it in the first place.

 

2. Because it's a place for ex-christians to gather en masse, and christians find any mass denial of their faith very personally confronting when it comes with personal accounts and many, many strong arguments. I know I did. I also know that I wouldn't have had the mental strength to search for such a site and actually read it until I had psyched myself up for something like it, and that took me friggin years. Not a lot of Christians are at a point in their journeys where they can visit a place where people confront their most dearly-held beliefs at every turn, just by being themselves and talking about their lives. It's like feeling personally attacked, and nobody wants to be where they are attacked.

 

3. In relation to that, having any form of doubt in a belief on which you've based a substantial part of your life and your identity will create fear--fear of sunk costs and fear of a losing security. This fear is like attacking yourself. It's scary. If you can't even trust yourself and the decisions you've made (such as who and what to give your life up to) then who are you? Such doubt and fear are really awful to experience and people want to run away from it. Who can blame them? Maybe a little bit, but as I said, not everyone is at a point in their lives where they can deal with it.

 

Hence of those Christians who come, very very few will stay beyond reading a list of topics in the main forum for these reasons

 

4. Once they get here, many express themselves vigorously in a manner which isn't welcome--whether it's because they simply genuinely want to help others by converting them, or they're expressing their beliefs in an effort to drown out their own little voice of doubt, and they think if they can prove the people here wrong, they'll get rid of that voice in their heads. Often it's a combination of both. The result is too many old and new wounds torn open--and this is supposed to be, in some measure, a place of healing, safety, and freedom of thought. If you're healthy and you go into a hospital carrying a pair of scissors and opening everyone's stitches, they'll call security and throw you out. Even if you cut one stitch off one wound. Act in a manner that isn't conducive to the atmosphere of this place and you'll be ejected quite quickly.

 

Hence of those Christians who stay, few even consider behaving appropriately and in accordance with forum rules.

 

5. Debating is exhausting.

 

Even if you manage to navigate all of the above, people get tired of doing this day in day out. The only people who stay are the people who get positive feedback, and Christians very rarely do here. Partly their own fault, partly a difference in beliefs where their thoughts don't get rewarded.

 

Oh, and let's not forget that many Christians are too poor to even afford a computer or phone, let alone internet, let alone search this in the first place.

 

I think that's everything.

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  • Super Moderator

I think, for the most part, we do a pretty good job of being civil, even cordial, to the few christians who come around, Ironhorse included. Sure, we have heated arguments, most of which never go anywhere; but it's all about "grace and relationships", to borrow a phrase from one of our more tenacious apologists. I don't think any of us would be here if we didn't, on some level, care about the christians who come here; because most of them only come as lurkers, and our efforts might just reach them and help set them free.

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Haha, I'm fully aware that I ended up on the tail end of things, just thought I could shed some light for IH as I would have appreciated someone breaking it down for me.

 

In case there was doubt, I didn't mean for my words to come off snarky or hostile, just neutral--but in The Lion's Den that's tricky. I should have been clearer that I wasn't trying to be hostile. My main point was when it comes to the lack of Christians here, it's got nothing to do with any moral deficiency in all of the Christians who aren't here, it's just the way things are for a number of reasons. That's what I would have been most concerned about if I were IH, anyway.

 

Welcome to the rest of the forums, Ironhorse :) I hope you enjoy your stay, make more friends, and find out more about debating. It's my experience that learning the best practices of debate often helps you to make better decisions in other areas of life--and I'm not even talking about religion here. It helps cut through the muck.

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7 members, 49 guests

 

Know Yourself!

 

Hello everyone, Members and Guests.

 

In the Great Metaphor that is Life, we are all stuck on Gillgan's Island. TheRedneckProfessor, I can see the Professor in you. Gilligan was clumsy, but not stupid. I see Margee as Ms Howell, and maybe ironhorse is Mr Howell. Remember, Mr Howell stubbornly held onto his money...worthless on the Island. Money represents worthless Beliefs. Who knows, maybe he'll eventuall join us; not hold onto his worthless money? Blind Belief, without evidence, is equally worthless...Gilligan that's me. Cheers!

 

Gilligan's Island:Exiled in Paradise

 

One of the themes of this site is that fiction is about our efforts to overcome our state of exile from the better world we know should exist. An obvious example of this precept is the 1960s television comedy, Gilligan's Island, which tells a story much like Genesis, but one that is a farce rather than a tragedy. Gilligan's Island shows us a group of castaways who once lived in a paradise of consumer abundance known as America, with its world of hamburgers, television sets, bathtubs, and other instruments of fulfilled desire. In place of being exiled by a wrathful God, they go on a three hour tour and are lost in a storm. And instead of finding themselves trapped in the prison of nature and history, as are Adam and Eve -- and humanity -- they wake up on a tropical island that separates them from home.

 

I think, for the most part, we do a pretty good job of being civil, even cordial, to the few christians who come around, Ironhorse included. Sure, we have heated arguments, most of which never go anywhere; but it's all about "grace and relationships", to borrow a phrase from one of our more tenacious apologists. I don't think any of us would be here if we didn't, on some level, care about the christians who come here; because most of them only come as lurkers, and our efforts might just reach them and help set them free.

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7 members, 54 guests, 1 anonymous users

 

Austere, I really hope that ironhorse is happier outside the The Lion's Den.

We need Christians that know how to debate. You cannot debate unless you know your opponent's argument better than your own. He will like it here if we treat him as a Member. I think that it is doubt that he's afraid of. Please, everyone, don't get mad at him because he has no debate skills. We'll teach him to be a better debater. Remember, he's a fellow Member. I am afraid that ironhorse saw us as the enemy. Thanks for your insight. Cheers!

 

 

"The one thing that bothers me is why there are so few Christians here."

 

I can actually answer this.

 

1. Because it's a place for ex-Christians. Literally the opposite of a Christian's interest (let's not get caught up in the question of evangelism).

 

Hence, not many will look for it in the first place.

 

2. Because it's a place for ex-christians to gather en masse, and christians find any mass denial of their faith very personally confronting when it comes with personal accounts and many, many strong arguments. I know I did. I also know that I wouldn't have had the mental strength to search for such a site and actually read it until I had psyched myself up for something like it, and that took me friggin years. Not a lot of Christians are at a point in their journeys where they can visit a place where people confront their most dearly-held beliefs at every turn, just by being themselves and talking about their lives. It's like feeling personally attacked, and nobody wants to be where they are attacked.

 

3. In relation to that, having any form of doubt in a belief on which you've based a substantial part of your life and your identity will create fear--fear of sunk costs and fear of a losing security. This fear is like attacking yourself. It's scary. If you can't even trust yourself and the decisions you've made (such as who and what to give your life up to) then who are you? Such doubt and fear are really awful to experience and people want to run away from it. Who can blame them? Maybe a little bit, but as I said, not everyone is at a point in their lives where they can deal with it.

 

Hence of those Christians who come, very very few will stay beyond reading a list of topics in the main forum for these reasons

 

4. Once they get here, many express themselves vigorously in a manner which isn't welcome--whether it's because they simply genuinely want to help others by converting them, or they're expressing their beliefs in an effort to drown out their own little voice of doubt, and they think if they can prove the people here wrong, they'll get rid of that voice in their heads. Often it's a combination of both. The result is too many old and new wounds torn open--and this is supposed to be, in some measure, a place of healing, safety, and freedom of thought. If you're healthy and you go into a hospital carrying a pair of scissors and opening everyone's stitches, they'll call security and throw you out. Even if you cut one stitch off one wound. Act in a manner that isn't conducive to the atmosphere of this place and you'll be ejected quite quickly.

 

Hence of those Christians who stay, few even consider behaving appropriately and in accordance with forum rules.

 

5. Debating is exhausting.

 

Even if you manage to navigate all of the above, people get tired of doing this day in day out. The only people who stay are the people who get positive feedback, and Christians very rarely do here. Partly their own fault, partly a difference in beliefs where their thoughts don't get rewarded.

 

Oh, and let's not forget that many Christians are too poor to even afford a computer or phone, let alone internet, let alone search this in the first place.

 

I think that's everything.

 

 

qadeshet,

 

I admire your optimism when it comes to teaching Ironhorse to be a better debater - but I sincerely think your optimism is misplaced.

As we both know, faith plays no role in debate or logical argument.  https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/31/Appeal_to_Faith Yet faith gives him exactly what he needs and wants.  Never mind if what he believes by faith is irrational, illogical, unreasonable, contradictory and in conflict with the evidence.  Dispensing with it (even for a short time), simply to become a better debater is something that I very much doubt he'll put much effort into.  After all - why should he?  He believes that faith has guaranteed him the ultimate reward of eternal bliss.  So why should he trade in such a pearl of great worth for such a small and fading thing as becoming a better debater?  Sorry friend (shakes head) but I just can't see that anyone here will teach him to be a better debater if he doesn't want to be one.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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5 members, 64 guests, 1 anonymous users

 

Know Yourself!

 

Hi BAA, weren't we all, or most of us, just as certain at one point? I'm trying to get him to examine both sides of the question. Maybe we got him out of the Den, at least. Cheers!

 

qadeshet,

 

I admire your optimism when it comes to teaching Ironhorse to be a better debater - but I sincerely think your optimism is misplaced.

As we both know, faith plays no role in debate or logical argument.  https://www.logicall...Appeal_to_Faith Yet faith gives him exactly what he needs and wants.  Never mind if what he believes by faith is irrational, illogical, unreasonable, contradictory and in conflict with the evidence.  Dispensing with it (even for a short time), simply to become a better debater is something that I very much doubt he'll put much effort into.  After all - why should he?  He believes that faith has guaranteed him the ultimate reward of eternal bliss.  So why should he trade in such a pearl of great worth for such a small and fading thing as becoming a better debater?  Sorry friend (shakes head) but I just can't see that anyone here will teach him to be a better debater if he doesn't want to be one.

 

Thanks,

 

BAA.

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